I have my A1 for about 6 months now and I have no complaints about the camera at all. With the help of this forum and a lot of trial and error on my part, I have learned to produce some really good quality video. I still have a lot to learn yet but I'm really happy with the progress I made so far.

My only problem I have is editing. For those who have read some of my previous posts you will know I was having problems with Windows Vista. These problems are still on going and I see no light at the end of this dark tunnel. I've been using programs like Ulead's Videostudio and Adobe's Premiere Elements and have not been happy with the way they run. I tried to download and install the trial version of Premiere Pro the other day and I got an error when trying to install it. I contacted Adobe about that and there response was they don't support Trial versions. That's pathetic.

Well needless to say I'm pretty disgusted with the PC and Vista and all the idiots who make the software for it, so I am seriously considering selling my workstation and going Apple. I have done a little research on this and from what I read Apple has come long way over the years. In a lot of instances they seem to be more superior than the PC, especially when it comes to computer power which is essesential for HD editing.

Another thing that is attracting me to the MAC is Final Cut Studio 2. Again, from what I read this appears to be the ultimate video editing system available. It is used by many professional videographers and cinematographers. And the $1299 price tag for the software isn't bad either, as long as it does what it claims to do anyway.

So with that in mind, could I get some feedback on those who use the MAC and FCS 2 and tell me what they think about it?

If I go the Apple route I will probally be purchasing a MacBook Pro and FCS 2. I will still keep my Windows XP workstation for my photography and use the Mac for my video.

Thanks. :)

-John

Why not revert to Windows XP Pro?

The "idiots" who write the software for Vista aren't idiots. They have written excellent software for XP. Microsoft have changed some fundamental things in Vista than can "break" software designed for XP. Most (large) software houses can't update their software in a short cycle. Typically, they will wait until the next major version to roll out "fixes" for new Vista behaviors and requirements. Note, this isn't just a feature of new versions of Windows - new versions of Mac OS lead to headaches for some well established and respected software.

If you read around on this forum, you'll see that the general consensus is to use XP for editing and not Vista.

I can't comment about switching to Apple. You don't have anything to lose by trying XP. If you bought your computer with Vista preloaded, you are entitled to get XP Pro free of charge (before Jan 2008).

Hi John,

Apple and FCS is undoubtly a very good editing combo, but before dramatically chancing, I would do as John (the other John) said: run Windows XP. Vista has many bugs in it, and many people here advice NOT to switch to Vista yet, especially not for editing, because it creates many bugs.
I'm using Premiere Pro and I'm happy with it (although I'm also looking at a switch to Mac, but for different reasons).

I agree, go with XP Pro.
Whatever can Vista supply for video editing that XP Pro can't?
Vista might have some advanced graphics features (to handle all those pretty things) but is that valid for video editing that isn't rendering polygons? Perhaps, I don't know.

"I don't need a fancy 3D ash-tray in my car - I need a working engine..."

Thanks John and Mathieu for your response.

John: I'm not going to get into a debate on the fundementals of software design with you, this isn't the place for that, but I do respect your opinion and it would be fun to debate that issue with you. I will say this though, if you claim your software is Vista compatiable, then make sure your software works well with it before you release it. Unfortantly that is not the case with Ulead and Adobe who do claim that their products are Vista compatiable.

As for XP, I agree with you 100%, it is a good solid OS and I have had no big issues with it. I have worked with SD video and XP for years with no problems. But because I made the transistion to HD, I had to upgrade my computer system to a faster machine. Dell sells their computers now with Vista. That was not my choice. If I could have gotten my laptop with XP installed instead, I would have. I told Dell numerous times I was not happy with Vista and wanted them to put XP on it instead but they said they can not do that.

Even if I do install XP on my laptop, I still have a software issue to consider. Like I said before, I'm really not happy with Ulead and Adobe regardless of what OS they run on. Ulead's latest version still doesnt support 24p and Adobe Premiere Elements DVD output leaves little to be desired. The pro version is a lot more money and I still haven't been able to try out their trial version to see how good it realy is, so that is why I'm considering going MAC and FCS.

The bottom line is that if I'm going to invest that kind of money into an editing system, whether it be PPRO or FCS, I want it to be able to grow with me as my needs become more demanding.

-John

I will say this though, if you claim your software is Vista compatiable, then make sure your software works well with it before you release it.

Believe me, we have gone to great pains (and it has been very painful) to identify the Vista "gotchas". In a number of cases, we have to make the product "Vista aware" so it behaves one way on Vista and another on XP....no Vista complaints yet from users since we launched in February.

I told Dell numerous times I was not happy with Vista and wanted them to put XP on it instead but they said they can not do that.

Dual boot to XP and Vista but don't use the Vista . Licensing for Vista permits you to use XP (though, technically, not at the same time as Vista). Or wipe Vista and install XP.

I know Vista users who have premiere cs3 and say it runs solid, problem is that almost every pc nowaydays is equiped with vista, Dell does offer pc's with xp but only for business users in Europe. What I also don't understand that they put 500gig (2x250) in a raid as the c-drive with no possibility to add an extra drive (Bit off topic but since we are complaining about dell :))
I run premiere cs3 on windows xp home and it's very stable as well, the only problem I had was when I first used it and opened an older project made in version 1.5 which caused several crashes. Later making a new project it has not failed me since.

Another thing that is attracting me to the MAC is Final Cut Studio 2. Again, from what I read this appears to be the ultimate video editing system available.

Apple has a knack for writing good software and Final Cut is definitely popular, but it does have a few shortcomings. Among other things, note that it doesn't currently support either Blu-ray or HD-DVD authoring, except to burn short HD-DVD projects onto red-laser DVDs. Not much good to have a great HD editing program if you can't burn an HD disc for customers -- you'd need another program like Adobe CS3 for that until Apple gets its act together.

Im using DELL system Intel Core 2 with Windows XP Pro SP2. Running just Adobe CS 3 Production Suite. Not a problem so far edit both DV, SD & HDV. Windows Vista still not very good running CS3. MAC OS X intel can do the job as Kevin say: Among other things, note that it doesn't currently support either Blu-ray or HD-DVD authoring

Hmm, well that's interesting to know. Thanks for bringing that up.

I received and email from Adobe today telling me that because I'm a registered PElements owner, I can upgrade to the pro version for $299. That's a pretty good deal I think.

If I am going to go this route and stay with the PC, I would definitly want to trash Vista and install XP on my laptop. This means I would have to purchase Windows XP somewhere, reformat my HD and install it.

I do not want to go off topic or stray away from the real purpose of this forum, but if someone can direct me to some info on how to go about doing this, it would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks everyone for your help. I love this forum! :)

-John

John, you also have the option of buying the Mac and using Boot Camp, Parallels, or VMWare, to run WinXP or Vista by partitioning your drive for it. That would protect your investment in PC software while offering the benefits of the Mac and FCP.

Of course you'd have to buy a copy of Windows or Vista off the shelf to do this.

-gb-

Consider the complete laundry list of having to switch platforms. What other software and process' do you have already vested in windows that will have to be replaced in the Mac. (I have both). However, I am heavily vested in XP (in both time and money) and have no desire to switch to vista just to have something that looks like a Mac, (but doesn't perform like one :)

In a business sense you want to stay away from bleeding edge and novel technology. Stability is the answer. I stuck it out with Win 2000 pro a few years until XP was in SP1. I shall do the same with Vista, if ever, and only when my vendors release upgrades that make the switch nothing more than that.

Currently though, with CS3, is not quite well with XP either. I upgraded between projects and now I may have to go back a few steps. I certainly do not want to add to my frustrations with a half-patched OS either. I have no time for beta testing. My biggest fear is that the demand/draw for getting Vista compatible may actually detract from getting CS3 100% right with XP and it's going to be a long road.

Peter, I have 2 workstations (computer systems) that I use. The older one is a Dell desktop with Windows XP. I use this system for my photography and SD video. My second system, the newer one is a Dell Inspiron (laptop) which I purchased after getting the A1. The sole purpose of this system is just for my HD video. The only software I really invested for this system is Premeire Elements. The other software I have on it I also use on the XP desktop, so in reality I am not losing anything as far as software goes.

I find myself in need of a more sophisticated editing system. From what I see that is available for the PC is not very good. I'm getting mixed responses pertaining to PPPro and FCP. I have a lot of thinking to do before I make up my mind on what to do.

I'm still leaning more towards Apple though, there OS is more stable than Windows and they seem to run faster than the PC. FCP looks pretty impressive from what I can see of it and is spoken very highly by the professional community.

-John

Presently I'm using two Dell Precision 390's... quad and all the jazz they offer for that setup including Blu-ray editing....

Dell let me have both, XP and Vista software disks... they let me decide what OS to load...

So I made the decision to load one with Vista and one with XP pro ... this was before Adobe released the CS suites... the machine loaded with Vista was pissing me off daily on that work station to the point that I wouldn't use that station and just worked off of my other 390 with XP and Premier 1.5

After Adobe released the CS suite, I put it on the Vista machine to see what would happen as I didn't want to mess with the XP setup on the other machine. If it didn't work I wasn't going to pay Adobe for the upgrade...

Well the CS suite worked fine on the Vista Machine....

So I decided to double load the XP machine with the old Adobe suite and the new CS suite...

So far on both setups, Vista and XP I've had very few issues... and Cineform just fixed the AE issues this week...

It may take me until Xmas to get confidence with the Vista machine before I decide to flip the XP machine to Vista and unload the older Adobe products... but its getting there....

I'd stay with XP as that machine is very stable, but I got 4GB memory on these machines that I'd like to see used with Vista....

I couldn't even think about bouncing between a Mac and two PC's, one with XP and one with Vista... :-0

I know PCs may have it's ups, but I say if you go with a Mac, then you won't be disappointed. Sure, Final Cut may not have HD-DVD or Blu-Ray authoring, but until the format debate is over I wouldn't worry about that so much. And if you don't want Final Cut (for some odd reason) then you could always get Premiere Pro CS3 for Apple.

I honestly think it'd be worth it to switch over. But that's just my opinion.

Go to the nearest apple store and play with a mac for free. Decide for yourself with your hands on the mouse and keyboard. We all have strong opinions one way or the other. You can also check their schedules to see if they have any free classes scheduled in FCP to see if you like the workflow.

... The only software I really invested for this system is Premeire Elements.

....I'm still leaning more towards Apple though, there OS is more stable than Windows and they seem to run faster than the PC. FCP looks pretty impressive from what I can see of it and is spoken very highly by the professional community.

-John

Then I'd switch based on your described needs. If you just want an edit only workstation and a stable OS, then that will do. As suggested earlier, go an apple store and demo. Be sure that an FCP only solution will provide for YOUR requirements. That is, if there are missing features not yet implemented in FCP, do you even need those features anyway?

Go to the nearest apple store and play with a mac for free. Decide for yourself with your hands on the mouse and keyboard. We all have strong opinions one way or the other. You can also check their schedules to see if they have any free classes scheduled in FCP to see if you like the workflow.

Best advice I've seen yet. Much like we preach around here on camera questions. The best one is the one that 'feels' right to you personally. I have to admit, as much as I like FCP and its power, I was really comfortable with Premiere Pro 2.0 the first time I sat down with it. It seems to have some limitations in areas, but strong features that FCP doesn't have in other areas.

-gb-

This means I would have to purchase Windows XP somewhere, reformat my HD and install it.

No!!!! You are allowed to "downgrade" to XP Pro and get a license key at no charge as long as you don't use Vista (Business or Ultimate for some reason).

See:

http://download.microsoft.com/download/5/f/4/5f4c83d3-833e-4f11-8cbd-699b0c164182/royaltyoemreferencesheet.pdf

and get on to whomever sold you the PC. You may need to find someone with the XP Pro CD-ROM according to the above document. The vendor may only provide the license key.

I'll steer clear of the Mac vs PC debate but just a few thoughts:

- No point in complaining about Vista compatibility...you can't swing a dead cat in an online forum without hitting at least three people who've said 10 times if they said once that historically any new OS has had its growing pains, and there are enough Vista issues at present to deter most of us from using it with any editing software. Personally, I was all primed and ready with my new Quad Core and 4GB of RAM for Vista's release...as reports and reviews rolled in, I changed my tune and am still waiting for it to be ready for prime time (as I did when XP first came out).

- There are exceptions but most major software vendors do NOT provide tech support for free trials. Sorry, "pathetic" or not, that's the way of the world.

- Comparing a low-cost consumer-level software package like Elements to FCP Studio is a bit unrealistic. As has been suggested, if Vista is giving you fits, just put XP on the machine. No biggie. Even getting XP and then upgrading to CS3 is a lot cheaper and easier than going out and completely changing platforms. Or, be verrrrrrry patient and Vista SP1 will be out sometime next calendar year!

Thanks again for all your replies.

Getting my hands on an Apple to try out would be nice, however there are no Apple stores in my area.. I'm not even sure if there is one in Erie (about an hour from me) but that really isn't an issue with me. I know I would not have any problems adapting to a new OS.. it's not much different from Windows anyway.

As for downgrading to XP, I'm not really sure about that either. The drivers that came on the CD are for Vista so I would have locate XP drivers for my firewire and wireless adapter among other things. That could be a disasterous task indeed.

I appreciate everyones opinions, but I guess what I was looking for is some feedback from Apple/FCP users that maybe could enlighten me with their experiences. Are they happy with its performance... what are some of the drawbacks if any. The fact that FCP does not support HD-DVD or Blu-Ray isn't an issue with me at this time for the same reason Jerrod stated, and I tell my clients the same thing. As a matter of fact, I know no one that even owns an HD DVD player including myself. I got screwed back when Beta and VHS were battling for the market so I learned my lesson then. So for now my clients are happy when I can give them high quality SD on DVD. I always archive my projects so that when HD DVD becomes more realistic, I will have it if any of my clients want their video output to HD.

-John

My experience with mac/fcp is good. I had some issues editing one piece due to the fact that I captured it using iMovie for ease of use, but that does icky things when pulled into FCP, now that I capture directly to FCP, I have no issues there. I've used premeire historically and diva videoshop before that. The workflow is about the same in all three...I've had to make very minor mental adjustments to switch from one to the other.

I cheat in having no problems on my mac as I'm a certified apple tech, so big problems are very minor to me at home. I've spoken to people who are very frustrated with their macs...and others who love them...same with windows. It's very much a personal thing. This is why I always recommend getting your hands on one to find out for yourself:

http://www.apple.com/retail/
on the right side of the page is a pulldown with states, followed by a pulldown with cities to locate them.

Apple Store
5508 Walnut St, Pittsburgh, PA
(412) 683-1186

Apple Store
61 Saint James Pl, Ardmore, PA
(610) 726-9400

Apple Store R147
300 S Hills Vlg, Pittsburgh, PA
(412) 833-1840

Apple Inc
160 N Gulph Rd, King of Prussia, PA
(610) 265-2321

Few years ago I bought my first computer, taught myself how to use it and I have minimal problems with the whole HD scene. But every piece of software I've ever used NEVER worked as advertised, sept Screen Ruler...lol I have a saying when I turn on my machine to start work, "nothing works". It's true no matter Ford or Chevy, computers don't work. Knowing that makes any successful project that much sweeter.

What cracks me up is 2 pages of posts about this. Tons of great advice, but this guy should learn how to use a computer. Finding and installing (and uninstalling) drivers is the life blood of video editing. To do this stuff you really need to be able to trouble shoot your system, and then know where to find help and the right questions to ask. I don't mean to offend, but some of the posts are telling.

My best advice is to check out cineform for editing HD (PC and Mac). Those guys almost make me believe that computers can work, even though I know they don't.

Cheers,
Jon

What cracks me up is 2 pages of posts about this. Tons of great advice, but this guy should learn how to use a computer. Finding and installing (and uninstalling) drivers is the life blood of video editing. To do this stuff you really need to be able to trouble shoot your system, and then know where to find help and the right questions to ask. I don't mean to offend, but some of the posts are telling.

Hi John,
I'm editing for a while, and I haven't got any unsatisfied customer.
So the editing job I'm doing must be okay.
And I don't know so much about drivers and very technical computer stuff either...
Many professional editors don't know either.
They aren't computer specialists, they are EDITORS.
Knowing much about computers undoubtly eases the task if you have problems, and I'm learning more about computers, but if something will fail, I'll be on this board too for asking advice, if I don't know what it is.
We are all here to help each other. Everybody has to learn, right?

Best regards,

I can pound a nail into wood, I don't know the metallurgy that goes into making a hammer.

You won't find a winning argument in the MAC vs PC editing war. They both work and each one has more market share in certain market segments.

What you will find the majority of people agreeing on is if you choose to edit in the PC world, you will find smoother running systems for the next 18-24 months running XP. It's a simple decision. Makes your life a whole lot easier. Most editors have a stable of 2-6 programs they run and they all must run on the OS to satisfy the operator. The older OS always wins for the 2-3 transition period. XP is very stable so it shouldn't be any kind of handicap.

One can generally find the drivers for XP on the manufacturers web site, but check this out first before buying a new computer. If you build your own, just buy XP and the drivers aren't an issue....

Mathieu & Cole: Excellent points! I couldn't have said it better myself. It's people like you that make this forum great.

-John

Well I'm going to toss in the monkey wrench....

Here's a consideration that you should pay great attention too....

Its HDDVD and Blu-ray compatability.....

This issue is going to rear its ugly head in the near future and most likely
is going to make a lot of folks mad....

What am I talking about?

Its called HDCP and your going to hear it more and more in the very near future....

If you plan on adding a HDDVD or Blu-ray reader/writer to your new wiz bang computer, your computer will author and burn these disks all day....

But guess what... your computer wont be able to play those disks back...

why, because the computer is not HDCP compliant...

To find out more and to test any existing system go to the cyberlink site and download the cyberlink BD/HD Adviser.... then read up on the issue...

Don't get me wrong.... you can configure a computer that will burn and play back HDDVD or Blu-ray, its just that you need to choose the correct components or you may be in for a suprise when you finally add the burner
and find out you can't play them on your computer....

I only mention this because sooner or later we all are going to want to add the capability to burn HD material....

I'm finding out the hard way already....

When I run the cyberlink adviser it tells me my monitor is not HDCP compliant and all of the Blu-ray software players refuse to play back either a home burnt blu-ray or a comercial blu-ray... but I can burn it and they play great in my PS3....

So, if your building a new computer and you plan on playing back HD disks
on it... pay attention and make sure that all of the components, video card, display are compliant and you will be OK going forward

Here's more info... http://www.behardware.com/articles/603-1/hdcp-the-graphic-card-and-monitor-nightmare.html

Would that be a really big deal though? If you have an HD DVD or Blu Ray DVD player connected to a HD TV you can view it on that. Me personally, I would rather view something I made on a bigger screen anyway, it would be easier to see any flaws.

-John

feels about the same as all the other editors, slight differences in workflow, but 90% of editing is setting an in and out point on a clip, then adding it to a timeline...perhaps a crossfade or two.

After that is where the differences come in...and they are all relatively easy to overcome. I've used a dozen OS's in the past 30 years and OSX feels the most natural to me...I was pretty happy with dos as well, but so far as GUI's go, the Mac feels the most polished to me.

FCP doesn't feel like it fits with the OSX experience (most likely because it was acquired from macromedia)...but it should feel familiar to anyone who's used any other NLE's up to the point where apple bought FCP from them. The whole which editor is superior argument seems pointless to me. They all do the same job in just about the same way (same as the computer - data from storage to screen based on user input). It all boils down to personal preference...find examples of all of the alternatives and sit down and work with them. There should be someone who'll let you do that in your area representing the vegas, avid, premiere and FCP camps. Use the one that makes you feel more productive.

This is from the FCP camp, chiming in and signing off ;)

Would that be a really big deal though? If you have an HD DVD or Blu Ray DVD player connected to a HD TV you can view it on that. Me personally, I would rather view something I made on a bigger screen anyway, it would be easier to see any flaws.

-John


I agree John... but its nice to be able to check out your new burnt disk when you author with menus and such.... not so much as a viewing medium...

Read you loud and clear Cole. Thanks :)

-John

You're right Ray, making sure your menus and navigation is working properly, yea it would be better to test that on the puter. Good info. Thanks.

-John

Guys,

We've beat this one to death. The tone and language of some posts is getting out of hand.

Thread closed for now.