Never had this problem before... and I'd be interested in some help!

For a recent wedding I burned the brides videos on to Datasafe DVD+R Dual Layer Discs with my Apple Mac Pro at 2.4x speed. Reason being she wanted hugely detailed coverage, so the final product was 3 hours and fifteen minutes with a detailed index. As always, I tested the discs before sending them off... no problems.

Two weeks later the bride returns two of the three discs saying they played fine the first time, but kept skipping at about half an hour in whenever she played them again. I examined the discs and sure enough there were some scratches, fingerprints etc. So, I pointed it out to her, explained that she needed to take care of her discs and burned a couple of replacement discs.

That was two weeks ago. Tonight she calls with exactly the same problem... played once, then next time started skipping. She tried them on another DVD player and it won't play them either. The basic tone of the conversation was... it's my fault, my discs are faulty. I'm fed-up about this because I really put a lot of work into that wedding and went out of my way to accomodate her requests.

I've used these discs before, and no problem. I'm sure she's just not looking after them.

Now I'm having doubts... and here they are...

1. Are Dual Layer dvd's inclined to cause more problems in general, are they too delicate?

2. Should I be using DVD-R DL instead of +R?

3. Are DVD's burned on PC/Macs more susceptible to scratches and marks than mass produced discs you buy off the shelf?

4. Am I using a crappy brand... Is there a brand of dual layer DVD that everyone agrees is superior?

Thanks in advance guys!

I'm not burning dual-layer DVDs at work, but I have had a similar problem with people complaining about the DVDs we give them not working. Through trial and error I've learned to stay away from all +R DVDs and anything made by Maxell, Verbatim and Ritek. That's just based on the experience I've had with them though.

I usually try to stick with Fuji when making DVD-R discs for people. They have had the best success rate out of all the other discs we've tried. I can't answer any of your other questions, but it wouldn't surprise me if dual layer DVDs were more prone to problems than standard DVDs are.

Thanks John.

I'm going to try burning the discs again onto -R Sony dvd's... see if it makes any difference.

What's bugging me is the whole, "Played fine the first time, won't play any more", coupled with the marks on the discs. I get the feeling I could pay Universal Studios a couple of million to reshoot the wedding, and press the DVD's for me... and she'd still bring them back damaged!!

I work for a private college, and so we duplicate videos like crazy. we have found that if we burn a "master" copy and try it in multiple dvd players it has less luck then when we make duplicates of the "master" in our telex spinwise duplication tower. something about the duplicate tower that changes how things are read in dvd players that makes them work so much better. this might be just something exclusive to our setup but since we've been using the tower we have had no complaints.

as to dual layer disc....we have a dual layer duplication tower as well and we have a few complaints of them working. Basically we have found out that not too many dvd players on the market really like reading burned dual layers...whether its +R or -R....BUT always use -R (much more universal)

Thanks Zach.

-R seems to be a better option ok.

So, do you folks avoid dual layer at all costs? Would you go so far as to recommend burning two single layer discs instead?

So, do you folks avoid dual layer at all costs? Would you go so far as to recommend burning two single layer discs instead?I avoid them like the plague. Burners and players are fickle enough the way it is with single layered media.

So, do you folks avoid dual layer at all costs? Would you go so far as to recommend burning two single layer discs instead?Yes, absolutely. And my guess is that it should be fairly easy to break up a wedding video into two sets of tracks, each set on its on single layer DVD.

I have heard nothing but bad experience with playing dual layer discs in standard DVD players, not counting of course the "real" (i.e. replicated) DVDs.

- Martin

Not to reinvent the wheel but perhaps you could break the time up onto two disks and save the hassle. I never use +R and have heard of other people having problems with them. A photographer we just shot with gave the B&G their photos on +R and it won't play at all for them. If you reburn them yoiu might suggest that if it comes back scratched you won't replace them free of charge anymore. Also are you getting the old ones back. I had a couple come to me three times for skipping errors and later found out they gave the other discs to parents. Which is funny cause we tell them they can burn them, just don't sell them.

So, do you folks avoid dual layer at all costs? Would you go so far as to recommend burning two single layer discs instead?

Yup, here too. DL = double layer of trouble.

I think I'll try a -R disc first.

If that doesn't work I'll have to split it.

But that's it. She'll have to look after the discs, or pay me for more.

Yup, -R for Macs for sure. I don't do dual layer for a lot of the reasons expressed.

As for brands, I have to say that generally, Verbatim have a very good rep for Macs; I've had good success with them as have many others. Mind you, I also have had great success with TDK and many people hate them.

I just went through a 50 spindle of Riotek ink jet printables without a dud in the bunch. I have found Maxell to be spotty. Only use Sony a few times (supplied by clients) with good results but not enough fro a true case study.

Definitely stay away from the off brand cheapo stuff and I would avoid the ones labelled "Kodak"

As for your issues with the bride, I think it may be time to cut your losses. In a similar situation, I went to the clients' house, played the disk in every machine they had (it was an hour long project and I took time to play it entire on one machine and spot checked it on the others) When they agreed that it played, I made them sign a statement declaring so. Let them know, I can't be responsible for what they do with their own property ... they bought it, it ain't mine no more. Left them cleaning supplies and an instruction sheet for proper disk care


Know what? Got a refferal a year later. Go figger

I like that... going to the house and the cleaning kit... then a referral!

It's really funny you just posted that, because here's the STRANGE thing... this brides sister just phoned... wants to book me for her wedding!

Like you said... go figger!

Dual Layer Disc's are not compatible with all DVD players out there keep away from them i say

You can get 1hr 30min on a DVD at very good quality but never use +r always use -r they are more compatible.


Section from one of Ken Stone's Articles

For the best quality, set Encode Mode to Two Pass VBR. The Bit Rate setting will depend upon how long your video is: for less than 60 minutes, set Bit rate to 6.8 Mbps, for 60-90 min, use 5 Mbps, for 90-12 min, use 3.5 Mbps. Set Max Bit rate to 7.5 Mbps, and Motion Estimation to Best. Set Encoding Mode to Encode to Background encoding to encode your video to MPEG-2 while you work, or Encode on build to encode just before burning a DVD.

i have never ever had a problem with TDK DVD-r

they have been fantastic for me

regards

Rob

backing up files/footage/whatever that will be burned in my machine and will be read back in the same machine. Not for distribution.

All this talk of dual layer is helpful and convinces me I guessed right on a recent job (for a change): had about 69 mins. of a performance, almost all of which had to appear in the final cut. I considered dual layer, but that definitely would have created a problem for the client, who burns hundreds of extra copies for their members and benefactors. I cut the obviously useless stuff, but after that, I was literally shaving frames one-at-a-time, using short & fast transitions, and overlapping audio to squeeze out every fraction of time I could, all to avoid dual layer. Just putting finishing touches on it tonight. Based on everyone's rec's, I seem to have made the right decision. (Now, if I could only convince that client to give me the copy work, too).

Thanks.

We've had the same problem here. I'll burn a disc and watch it on our dvd player. Sometimes it will play fine, other times it will skip. When it skips we rewind it and play that section again and the skip is gone. Not really sure what the problem is. Our player just might suck. So it may not be the b&g's fault, it just might not play correctly in their player.

We've started sending our masters out to a company and have them dup them. Just make sure you don't have any copyrighten material in them!

Just another suggestion if you're not already doing it. Burn everything at 1X regardless of how fast the media says it can be burned. This results in a much more reliable product. I know, it takes longer, but it beats having an angry bride and potential bad word of mouth advertising.

-gb-

I'll throw in my two cents here..

#1) DVD -R is more reliable than DVD +R

#2) DVD's made with burners are not typically as reliable as ones made in duplication warehouses.

#3) Stay away from Dual Layer just as everybody here has said, they are MUCH more suspect from scratches etc.

#4) The top side of the disc can have almost as much to do with the reliability of a disc as the surface area. When light hits the disc, if it finds its way through the top surface you'll get errors.

In the end, I doubt she's calling you just to bug you and I'm sure she's not exactly scraping the discs across the carpet floor either considering its her wedding. It's probably a pretty reasonable combination of her having a some cheap DVD players, her not taking the "best" care of the discs, and your duplication process being limited.

I bet if you fix the things people have suggested in here you won't have many troubles at all.

Jon

Thanks a million, you guys! Really appreciate the feedback.

I have a cheapo dvd player in our bedroom. Although it's only a year old, it does not always play burned discs very well. I bet her player is a cheapo piece of junk like mine. I think a different format should do the trick as others have said.

Also, I don't think there is anything wrong with verbabtim. I don't know of another brand that has white glossy hub printable dvd's.

What if the video was split into separate tracks on separate layers (is tha possible), like have the ceremony on one and reception on another. Then there would be no layer change during playback. Just a thought.

Just my 2cents:

Had a client where dvds would skip and freeze. Reburned to +R and they played fine. Who knows?

Also have found that copies made in my duplication tower appear to be more compatable than the 'master'

Have an expensive dvd player that may or may not play a burned dvd. have a cheap Cyberhome that has played EVERYTHING. I think I could play a saucer on it.

My impression from A LOT of research is that TY and Verbatum are very good discs.

I always present a long wedding as a 'Two Disc Set'. The dual DVD case is but pence more to buy and the second DVD-R likewise, but the perceived value as the couple open the case is a surprise and delight feature.

Of course you have to print two discs and find a suitable fade-out point, but that's no real problem. I tell them that using two discs enables me to keep the image and audio quality high. Oh, and with my Pioneer burner I always use Verbatim DVD-R 16x burnt at 4 or 8 times.

tom.

...I've learned to stay away from all +R DVDs and anything made by Maxell, Verbatim and Ritek...I usually try to stick with Fuji when making DVD-R discs...

Funny isn't it? I've had just the opposite experience. Now I use Maxell exclusively!

Taiyo Yuden White Thermal Hub Printable 8X DVD-R Media dvds work flawlessly. It's worth the money not to have to reburn due to poor quality dvds. I also recommend staying away from dual layer dvds, most dvd players will not play them. I usually hand out two dvds if I need over 1hr :30 min. in a case that holds two dvds. Usually, the Pre-Ceremony and Ceremony are on the first dvd and the reception is on the second dvd.

You could also try transcoding your footage at a lower bit rate. Some of these dvd players I guess just don't have the processing power as the others.

Wow, I am shocked.

Not only do I use +R only media, but I use Verbatum DL discs as well.

I found a few tricks with Burning the DL discs. I try real hard ( I use Final Cut Studio 2) to make sure that the ceremony will work on the first layer, by keeping it within a SL size, and the same for the reception. The smaller files wont matter. That way when it's playing a service, it does not need to skip to the 2nd layer to continue playing, and there is no pause, skip, or hickup.

I have not had a single DL come back at all.

I use cheap on sale DVD +R media that is on sale from Fry's Electronics. 24.00 for 100 discs kind of cheap.

Since I have done hundreds into thousands of disks of dance recitals and public education distance learning I will contribute my observations:

--Dual Layer burned disks are a mistake, and the one time I tried to use them, hours of effort got my one disk that would play in one of of four players I have. (On this this, I just bought burned DVDs from of a dance competition. Both disks were dual layer. One of them won't play after half way through (I just sent an email requesting a replacement a few minutes ago) and the other disk has a spot that freezes sometimes, but I was able to get extract the video and reburn the disk myself... the first disk I couldn't read on any of my burners. We have bought these disks from this company for the past 6 years, and this is the first time there was a problem, and this is the first time we received dual layer disks.

--As I'm sure most know, +R disks have to be bitset to play on most players, telling tyhe player they are DVD ROM. This isn't an issue with -R. Most name brand burners do this abutomatically.

--I routinely put 2 hours of video on a DVD with no loss of quality. I don't use a Mac. I use Procoder 2 (now 3) to encode. Bit rates down to 4000 look great. Using AC3 audio frees up a lot of space if you aren't using it.

--I have found that two disks are better than one, sometimes even when everything might fit on one. Dual Disk set seems to have a special cache. It just doesn't feel right if your whole life will fit on a single DVD. Also, the double case and the extra disk costs just pennies, but the general perception that there is considerable added value since commercial sets cost almost double single disks in many cases.

--Single layer disks will play on almost anything still out there now, and I have only had one case where +R wouldn't play and -R would.

--The disk is most vulnerable on the top side, not the bottom side. The white ink on the white disks add a layer of protection not on silver disks.

--I have found a tower duplicator very reliable. (The current one we are using is a premium model from supermediastore.com) I would use a premium model, with the better burners. I think some comanies may have better software than others, but I don't know.

--At the schools we first started using sale DVDs, store brand, silver to save money. After throwing a couple hundred in the trash because I had to bring a burner from home to get them to burn, we now use only premium white Taiyo Yuden. They cost more but there is no problems anymore.

--Different software will burn disks differently and some more reliably. Since I use PCs, my comments here won't be of value.

--2.4x burning is more reliable than 1x burning. My applications won't burn at one time. (Similar is true for burning CD masters... burn at 2x, not 1x.)

--I have found that some of the cheap players will play more types of disks and more junky disks than some of the more expensive name brand players. The player I use the most at home is a $30 Coby, it only runs on the remote because it doesn't have any buttons on the front, but it plays everything, and it plays both NTSC and PAL. I have an expensive Sony that balks at a lot of disks everything else I have plays.

--I have found that there is nothing gained by raising the bit rate very high, and many times a high bit rate will cause problems.

My general advice is if there is a problem with a DVD, work it out in a positive way with the customer. There's a good chance they had dear friends visiting from across the country, they are going to show them their cherished moments on DVD, and the dang thing wouldn't play, there were excuses and a lot of uncomfortability.

It's possible to burn a DVD that can play in almost all players and be used as a frisbee in the meantime. My wife drags stacks of them around for months, using them dailies, never putting them in cases, going from studio to studio, and they play fine until they just won't anymore.

A problem should be able to be taken care of. Don't give them another the same, in any case (unless it was some kind of accident.) At least try the single disks.

If someone is playing the DVD you made so often that they keep wearing it out, that's got to be a source for referrals. If you gave them a new DVD every month for 5 years, it would still be the cheapest advertising you'll every get.

Most DVD get played once, thrown in a drawer or shelf and never touched again.

Great info Jack, I started using verbatim dvd+r's a few months ago and allways burn at 4 speed and untill now (Knock on wood) they played fine a various brands of dvd players, the biggest problems I had before that was with Philips dvd+r's causing problems with skipping and freezing images, they were also burned at 4x speed, I also had very bad experience with TDK-R which I used as a demo and wouldn't play on 50% of the players when I visited clients.
Since I was having problems with the philips dvd's as well I bought a new dvd burner (Lite-on) and verbatims +r's and that solved the problem. Before that I was using a 2 year old philips dvd burner. Strangest thing was that the philips dvd+r's didn't even start up on the very first philips dvd players with a harddisk.

Most DVD get played once, thrown in a drawer or shelf and never touched again.

Usually when it's a wedding dvd it gets played again after a year, I sometimes get a call from clients after a year with a request to add something on the short version (When I supplied a long uncut version to them as well)
After that I don't here anything again.

I have read dozens of posts regarding what "brand" of DVDs to use or avoid. They can almost become religious wars. However, there are only a limited number of manufacturers regardless of the branding.

Years ago I took the advice of my friend and started checking the DVD's media code against the lists on videohelp.com (Chris, delete this post if I'm not supposed to mention them)

By purchasing disks that have favorable ratings with my burners I have had success. (to me, success = <2% coaster factor)

Looking at it from another point of view, I actually have found the software used to burn the image has given me a much higher success rate, regardless of pc, burner and media brand. Since switching to ImgBurn , i export image files out of premiere and burn them with ImgBurn - I've used a couple of hundred each of around 7 brands over the last year, and had less than 1% failure....

saying that, i was about to embark on a dual layer render, but I think I'll stick to two singles now - thanks for the advice all!!!

First of all... thank you everyone for the overwhelming response to my question... it's fantastic to be a member of a forum with so many helpful members.

I think the least I can do is to give some feedback, and let you know the outcome of my problem.

I decided to "lovebomb" the bride and offered to completely replace her DVD's and cases with a new set of double edition DVD's - i.e. I split her dual layer wedding video into two single layer Verbatim-R discs. I delivered the DVD's to her house in person and spent two hours playing the DVD, taking it out of the player, putting it back in, and explaining that the problem was most likely that the original disc and her player just didn't get along.

It turned out to be an enlightening experience, as she loved the work I had done and I was able to see first hand her reaction to different techniques I had used during shooting and editing, and I learned a lot about what a bride really likes to see and hear on her video.

I also got the opportunity to examine some discs that had been played on her (Phillips) dvd player, and noted that they all had very similarly located and shaped scratch marks. I concluded that it was very likely the scratches were being caused by the same source, and most likely this was her DVD player. I examined the player and noted that the DVD drawer/tray was very shallow and not that well designed, and that it would be very easy to place a dvd into the tray incorrectly, i.e. not sitting properly in the "seat", and possibly this could result in a damaged disc.

Before leaving, she insisted she wanted to give me a glowing written reference for future customers!

So - lessons learned all around - use the right discs, and customer care is vital in this business!

Thanks again folks!

I admire you guys. I vowed never again to shoot another wedding video after dealing with crazed brides and assorted wedding bozos. Back in the good ole analog days (I was shooting SVHS and editing on two tape decks), we used multiple cameras, inserted a prologue with the happy couple growing up, etc and this was when very few were doing this kind of thing. But the bride and her mom rejected with the final product. When we inserted cut aways for reaction shots in the church, the mother moaned, "We don't want to see those people!"--as if there was a lot of action we were missing up at the altar. I do documentaries and commercials now and broadcast clients are easier to deal with than newly weds!

Anyway, I thought I would suggest something that sounds odd...Are you still using paper labels for your discs? The label actually introduces a slight wobble while the laser is reading the material. It generally won't happen on material shorter than 20 minutes. And it's never an issue with CD's because the tracking and reading of the data isn't as critical.

That's why I went to printable face DVD discs. Just a thought.

Sean, are you familiar with bit setting (aka book type)? I have tried pretty much everything that's on the market and settled exclusively for TDK +R blanks burned with book type set to DVD-ROM... never had compatibility issues ever since.

Sean, are you familiar with bit setting (aka book type)?

Thanks for that Ervin, I'd heard but not indulged. I'll check it out!

I thought I would suggest something that sounds odd...Are you still using paper labels for your discs? The label actually introduces a slight wobble while the laser is reading the material. It generally won't happen on material shorter than 20 minutes. And it's never an issue with CD's because the tracking and reading of the data isn't as critical.

That's why I went to printable face DVD discs. Just a thought.


It doesn't sound too odd to me Jim... I'm looking into it at the moment for future discs. Thanks for the thought!

Are you still using paper labels for your discs? The label actually introduces a slight wobble while the laser is reading the material. It generally won't happen on material shorter than 20 minutes. And it's never an issue with CD's because the tracking and reading of the data isn't as critical.

That's why I went to printable face DVD discs. Just a thought.

I jumped on lightscribe when it first came out but man was that a bit premature.... printables came out shortly after that and I should have gone with them. Light scribe is so slow and limited in appeal. I do like the laser look, but who knows if the brides will. No big complaints so far. Most of my brides haven't even thought as far as the appearance of the DVD.

Maybe buy those disc covers at staples and pop them on.

Interesting to here that DVD+R's are the devil :}

I use pretty much the same setup Noa Put mentioned. I have a LiteOn drive and I specifically use Verbatim DVD+R's so I can change the booktype from DVD+R to DVD-ROM, just as Ervin mentioned. I also save to an image file and burn with a seperate program (which is what also booktypes the disc) as someone mentioned as well. Didn't know anything about DVD-R setting to DVD-ROM automatically on good burners (if I read that right). Mine all still read as DVD-R when burned, but I suppose I might have an older burner. There's no software that bitsets DVD-R to ROM that I know of.

--- edit --

... Also, since it's someone relevant to the thread. Has anyone had any experience with applying anti-scratch coating to their discs, post burn. A. does it work and B. any instances of the coating interfering with the disc read?

Didn't know anything about DVD-R setting to DVD-ROM automatically on good burners (if I read that right). Mine all still read as DVD-R when burned, but I suppose I might have an older burner. There's no software that bitsets DVD-R to ROM that I know of.
That's correct, there is no such thing. The initial bit (that "tells" the player what type of disk you inserted: DVD-ROM, DVD-R/RW, or DVD+R/RW) is factory burned on DVD-R blanks. On DVD+R blanks it's left to the burner and software to write it as either DVD+R/RW or DVD-ROM.

It turned out to be an enlightening experience, as she loved the work I had done and I was able to see first hand her reaction to different techniques I had used during shooting and editing, and I learned a lot about what a bride really likes to see and hear on her video.Thanks again folks!

I allways sit out the complete dvd at the client to be sure it plays right, you did the right thing going through all this effort. It makes the client feel you care and don't consider them easy money. It might have cost you several hours to redo everything but surely you will gain extra clients out of it.

Another good point can be earned with the client if you simply buy them a new DVD player - I read about this practice some place here on this forum. They are now down to under $50 (I have a $28 Philips that plays just fine) and the client will be quite impressed.

Another good point can be earned with the client if you simply buy them a new DVD player - I read about this practice some place here on this forum. They are now down to under $50 (I have a $28 Philips that plays just fine) and the client will be quite impressed.

I have been thinking about that but the problem is often that they bought a dvd player years ago when they were quite expensive and they don't want a cheap replacement, even if it will solve their problem. Their argument is then that all movies they bought or hired play fine. Another thing to consider is that this could get around quickly resulting in other clients demanding a "free" player as well.

First hand experience, my 2 cents-

Not all players will play DL dvd's-- mainly older versions. We bought a cheap 20 dollar player from wal-mart and it played the disks fine while our older more 'expensive' one didn't.

I've had MORE success using APPLE burned Dual-Layer disks (-r?)= I'd say 98% success vs 60% with PC.

Here's my theory on her story:
She's SHARING it-- it works on some and not on others, meaning not everyone has the same dvd player...The sharing would explain the scratching etc from being passed around...

Here's a very late thought to throw in the ring:

I have actually bought $25 to $45 DVD players that will play my single-layer printable, Taiyo-Yuden or Fuji DVD-R discs perfectly and given them to nuisance clients. After proving that our discs work fine on a cheap new machine, they usually apologize and pay me back for the machine.

You can get 1hr 30min on a DVD at very good quality but never use +r always use -r they are more compatible.


I agree, DVD-R are much more "universally compatible" with many many players as compared to +r. Also, I find Taiyo Yudens the absolute best blanks on the market. Their watershield glossys are fantastic.

Anyone had experience with authoring a DL disc and sending it off to discmakers or another reputable replicator and having problems in the finished replicated DVD-9 disc? They will except a DL master disc and will replicate that way in lieu of DLT tape. They claim that whatever is on the master disc is what will come out. I guess my real question is, is the problem that everyone has with DL disc the dvd player compatibility or the media itself? Will a replicated disc from a DVD+/-DL disc have the same compatibility problems?

I doubt it. They are complaining about the media, not what is on it, if you are following the spec.There is a small chance that you might be bumping up against the MPEG-2 bit rate ceiling (9800kbps) in which case the DVD player might skip a beat, but other than that I would suspect the media.

I agree, DVD-R are much more "universally compatible" with many many players as compared to +r. Also, I find Taiyo Yudens the absolute best blanks on the market. Their watershield glossys are fantastic.

Does anyone have the source for this compatibility difference ? I once saw to be a source that showed a nearly insignificant difference between +R and -R, although for a while, some DVD manufacturers (notably Philips) would reject either -RW or +RW .

The ability for a +R to behave as a DVD-ROM by setting its booktype should make +R much more compatible in older players.

I had a lot of trouble with DL, either +R or -R until I settled on a good writer. My Sony, NEC and , worst of all, a SATA Plextor 755A all had trouble producing a DL without errors during verification. I've had zero trouble with write errors using Verbatim DVD+R DL on a BenQ DW1655 and DW1670 as well as a decent write speed at 6x. Now, playing that same disk on various DVD players is another story.

As for your bride's manhandling of your disks, it is entirely possible that the DVD player is killing it (caught in multidisk changer) or that she is storing the disk on a surface that is causing scratches, both of which aren't active damage. So, she blames you. I used to think it was ok to keep a DVD on paper on my table until I lost a very important disk.