Hi to all.

Anyone have ideas on how to best work with the EX footage in FCP?

Currently we use G5's but will be buying Mac Pro units soon. ( Which model is best bang for the buck would be great too)

What about the Bonsai method...?

Will a Kona (or like kind) card be needed or a wise investment?

Any other ideas would be great, as I would like to maximize our capital improvements and increase productivity in the process. :)

Mike

Buy the best spec you can afford this will be your workhorse for the next 2-3 years so look at the following...

8 core MacPro with min 6 Gig memory and an ATI 1900XT graphics card, this will bring you up to Intel so you will need to upgrade your FCP Studio if you have not already done so and also upgrade to FC Studio 2.
The gold star in HD conversion is the AJA lo HD box but this will set you back £2344 or if you want some processor boost plus HD monitoring go for the Matrox MXO at £680.

Hope this helps. PS. Remember to wait for Leopard next month as Apple are notorious for updating G5s/MacPros about the same time as a new OS is announced.

I did buy FCP2 via the upgrade path.

Pro Res won't play nice with my G5....

Are people really getting real time rendering from HD or HDV to SD DVD?

I have been waiting to get the new Mac since I heard they would delay the release of the new OS.

It would be nice to hit a price reduction in one of the models too:)

So the Matrox may do it for me... I want/need more efficiency in my production line... as I mentioned in your post about the EX it takes quite some time with my G5 to render to SD DVD...

Still paying for the HD transition ;) BUT I'm doin' it...

Mike

FCP workflow is exactly the same as XDCAM HD with a new importer programme.

MacPro with at least 2Gig of ram if not 4Gig. Kona or Blackmagic card will give real time monitoring and i/o.

Pro-res is sweet.

Almost real time rendering of I am not going for the best possible quality. If I want good quality then it is about 2x real time.

The Mac Pros should be on order as soon as they announce the new OS. The timing should be just right for me around then.

Do these capture cards offer seamless integration with FCP or are there additional steps to follow with the ingest.

I am seeing using the Sony supplied card reader to load the footage.

1) Shoot
2) Card reader to Black Magic/Kona etc.
3) Log & Capture via FCP
4)Edit

I mentioned in another post one of the reasons I like this cam is the alleged transfer rate of the footage to the computers Hard Drive. This may allow me to offer a "same day edit" for showing footage that I shot that day at the reception of the event.

For this I will need to streamline the entire proccess including the speed of the render.

Thanks again for the input!

Mike

Mike,

The XDCAM system is setup to be file based so your workflow will look more like

1. Shoot
2. Import footage via Sony's Xfer software
3. Edit

I don't know what the rated speeds of the SxS cards will be, but XDCAM HD at 35mbps (high quality) is supposed to be 2x real time importing.

I've been looking at tapeless solutions for my current employer and a workflow barrier we've hit is how to organize all the individual clips on the XDCAM disc (or memory card if we are talking about the EX) in a timely fashion. For example, if a shooter comes back with 60min worth of b-roll on tape from an event that will usually get logged into a dozen or so clips and batch captured. If the shooter comes back w/60min worth of b-roll on on a tapeless solution there could be dozens of clips that will have to be renamed since every time the shooters starts/stops a new clip is made. So instead of just logging an 8min section of tape as "Nintendo booth footage" I have a dozen clips that I'll have to rename "Nintendo booth footage" 01..02..03..etc.,. That puts a major crimp in the time saving features of faster than real time importing. ;)

Of course everyone's workflow is different so this may or may not effect you but I just wanted to through it out there as food for thought.


-A

I am seeing using the Sony supplied card reader to load the footage.

1) Shoot
2) Card reader to Black Magic/Kona etc.
3) Log & Capture via FCP
4)Edit

Mike, a capture card like the Kona or BM Intensity is for capturing via HDSDI onto a RAID array. It's a one-to-one capture rate and would only be useful for getting the live camera head signal from HDSDI which is pre-compression and chroma subsampling. So step #2 above won't work.

For file based transfer via the cards, you would do this.

1) Shoot
2) Use card reader from Sony or Expresscard 34 slot to mount as a removable storage device.
3) Open the Sony Transfer application to log what portions of clips you want to place on your hard drive (optionally, you can use XDCAM Import from FCP file menu to invoke the application which will place imported clips directly into your bin)
4) Begin editing.

You can play back recorded material through the HDSDI, but it won't get you back what you lost by going to the card.

This is part of what attracted me to XDCAM HD. The file based nature removes the need for a high end capture card and RAID to work with decent quality HD material.

If you want to migrate towards same day edits, you'll want the speed and convenience that file based recording offers. If you want to do high end studio stuff with pristine imaging, you go HDSDI into the capture card from a live camera shot.

-gb-

I hear what you are saying about naming the clips.

When I hit log and capture in FCP after making my capture settings I get a prompt asking for me to name put a name in for the clip names. I usually go with XXXXXX tape1 and the clips fall in as "XXXXX tape1" then it adds a -2,-3,-4 etc all the way down the line. This works fine for me.

So will I be able to use pro-res? I thought the card was needed to capture the EX footage into a pro-res timeline?

Thanks for clearing up the 4:2:2 question about the cards. I must have misread an article about capturing 422 from the cards. I have also read that 420 is pretty darn good for pulling color.

Looking forward to playing with one of these when they come out.

Thanks again,

Mike

I'm wondering if the EX can write time of day time code. With a file based system you no longer have to worry about preroll issues with the jump in code between stop and start. With time of day you could sort your clips in order in FCP and I suspect most other NLEs without issue. That doesn't help with clip names but having clips in time of day order might be a reasonable way to organize.

Now if the date were stamped in the metadata you'd even have a way to deal with multi day shoots.

Not a bad idea but what do you do when all your clips are flashing "12:00" :)

Mike

I hear what you are saying about naming the clips.

When I hit log and capture in FCP after making my capture settings I get a prompt asking for me to name put a name in for the clip names.

It doesn't work quite that way. Typically you would give each card a volume label like any storage device. XDCAM Transfer will manage your media based on unique disc or card volume labels.

Remember, you won't be using FCP log and capture. You will select File->Import->XDCAM and that will launch the XDCAM Transfer application. You'll then view the proxy files on each card and select in/out points that you add to a batch import list. Once the batch is started, you return to FCP and as the full resolution media gets pulled in for each clip, you can start editing while the remaining clips import in the background. There are options for titling the clips in camera and preferences within XDCAM Transfer as to what naming convention you wish to use for the filenames on your hard drive.

It might help if you start thinking of working with clips like you would pictures from a still camera in terms of media, how you move the files around, etc.


-gb-

This conversation makes one think that we need MacPro towers in order to edit the XDCAM EX footage, at least the top-quality 1920x1080 35mb footage. However, Sony touts the SxS cards' compatibility with ExpressCard slots in new laptops like the MacBook Pro.

Could someone clarify this?

I'm particularly interested in the scenario for someone using a first-generation 17-inch MacBook Pro with a CoreDuo 2.16GH, 2GB RAM, and a 200GB 7200rpm HDD running Final Cut Studio 2.

Would I have to upgrade to the latest-and-greatest MacBook Pros? Is using a laptop for editing and not just off-loading cards a no-no?

Many thanks in advance.

You could edit HD on a MacBook Pro 17" but the file sizes needed would be very restrictive unless you use an external FW800 drive, even then most people state SATA drives as the least technology needed to run HD in real time. Running FCS2 on the same drive as your HD video files would be asking for trouble. Yes the new Mac laptops have an express card reader built in but I think you will find Apple have other uses for this other than Sonys SxS card.
If you are serious about HD I would advise a top spec. 8 core MacPro not too hot in the portable stable unless you put some wheels on it but you really need the availability of the extra SATA slots (4 in new MacPro) to run HD.
HD as it stands today is not really "portable edit material" but as laptops get better and external drives get faster who knows.

Thanks, George. Yes, eSata would be best. I'm already using this even to do SD and HDV work.

However, since the footage would be brought in through the ExpressCard slot that I normally use to connect the eSata, wouldn't one first copy the files from the camera to the internal drive, then connect the eSata drives and move the footage there for editing purposes?

My sense is that this would be ok, i.e., use the internal drive only as temporary storage until the footage is moved to the editing drives.

Thanks.

Luis

So I plug in the card reader like a removeable storage device. Good

Then I import the files and if I don't rename each one the next batch will get totally mixed up?

Pictures usually have dates that can seperate them from each other as was mentioned above. I hope this is not as frustrating as it sounds. Sorry if I am a little thick but I am more of a hands on type.

My positive thinking is leading me to believe that there will be an easier way to log clips. Heavy hitters (old pros) will tolerate idiosyncacies more than the masses and this format is surely headed more toward the masses.

I hope we will get a more intuitive way to log clips than to manually rename each one. How is this handled in the consumer AVCHD file based camcorders?

Thanks guys.

Mike

So I plug in the card reader like a removeable storage device. Good

Then I import the files and if I don't rename each one the next batch will get totally mixed up?

Pictures usually have dates that can seperate them from each other as was mentioned above. I hope this is not as frustrating as it sounds. Sorry if I am a little thick but I am more of a hands on type.

You won't have any problems with getting things mixed up. The clips have metadata attached also. You have options for naming the clips in camera. Trust me Mike, once you get your hands on it, you'll realize what a piece of cake it is.

-gb-

You can plug the camera in via firewire and it too will behave as a card reader. As well as the sony transfer app there will also be a new "Log and Transfer" function in FCP that will allow you to import EX1 clips from within FCP. Log and Transfer dosn't allow you to view previews of the clips, make clip lists or partial clip import only import of selected clips.

the new version of XDCAM Transfer that is due to be released either before or in conjunction with the EX1 promises to allow editing of the metadata in the transfer app ... i'm hoping this translates to an all round robust improvement to XDCAM Transfer that enables its latent logging capabilies

ok ... and here i'm about to veer off into la la land, but was there some info about resuming recoding of a previously recorded clip, so that it extends the long GOP structure of the original clip rather than creates a new clip on the disc? if that were the case one could record an entire disc as a single clip and allow muliple shots to be imported as single (sub)clips ... this may have been an altogether different camera or i may have just dreamt it.

ok ... and here i'm about to veer off into la la land, but was there some info about resuming recoding of a previously recorded clip, so that it extends the long GOP structure of the original clip rather than creates a new clip on the disc? if that were the case one could record an entire disc as a single clip and allow muliple shots to be imported as single (sub)clips ... this may have been an altogether different camera or i may have just dreamt it.

No, it wasn't a dream. The newly announced F335 and F355 will have that feature.

-gb-

Ythe file sizes needed would be very restrictive unless you use an external FW800 drive, even then most people state SATA drives as the least technology needed to run HD in real time

If you are going to edit native XDCAM FW800 should be more than enough. 800 megabits = 100 Megabytes per second. I believe seagate's latest 750GB SATA drive can sustain almost 60 Megabytes/second - so a two disc array should be able to max out the FW800 bus. Even that may be overkill - 35 megabits per second works out to about 4.5 Mb/second, so five simultaneous streams is only about 23Mb/second - well within the speed limits of a single drive. At that point your processor becomes the limiting factor anyway, not your drive speed - it takes a lot of processing power to decode mpeg2 - so the main difference between a laptop and desktop will be in the number of real-time streams and effects they can play.

No, it wasn't a dream. The newly announced F335 and F355 will have that feature.

-gb-

Thanks Greg.

I wonder if that will be something that can/will be enabled on the 330/350's. Would make a lot of folks not keen on hundereds of clips in their projects very happy! With a bit of a tweak to XDCAM Select (Edius), XDCAM Transfer (Mac) etc etc it would make for a killer workflow.

I wonder if that will be something that can/will be enabled on the 330/350's. Would make a lot of folks not keen on hundereds of clips in their projects very happy!
That would just rock.

-A

I wouldn't be at all surprised to see the F350/F330 have it added in a firmware update.

With a bit of a tweak to XDCAM Select (Edius), XDCAM Transfer (Mac) etc etc it would make for a killer workflow.

All you really need is for the software to support importing a single clip via FAM built from a clip list. Since in a clip list, your in/out can span across clips. IMO, that would leave you with the best of both worlds. Personally, I don't want one huge clip so it all comes down to how you want/need to work.

There are some planned firmware upgrades to the F350, can't remember if this was one of them though.

-gb-

Thanks guys. I thought I was conjuring up all kinds of frustration for no reason.

I really am looking forward to this cam. I feel like a little kid and wonder how emotion driven this purchase is for me sometimes.

I find I continually have to remind myself that it's a tool I use to make money.... as well as have fun and it can't get much better than that :)

I am looking forward to the DOF control and the more "organic look" as the ex picture has been desctibed. I really hope the low light is as good as that reviewer mentioned... major bonus.

All the best to all!

Mike

All you really need is for the software to support importing a single clip via FAM built from a clip list. Since in a clip list, your in/out can span across clips. IMO, that would leave you with the best of both worlds. Personally, I don't want one huge clip so it all comes down to how you want/need to work.

There are some planned firmware upgrades to the F350, can't remember if this was one of them though.

-gb-

I'm not sure that would work .. or at least i'm not following you!
my think is simply that XDCAM Transfer "imports" clips ... its data transfer, nothing more (except some meta data manipulation and a bit of file rewrapping). if it were required to create a single clip from an arbitrary clip list then it would in have to conform that concatenated data to a single clip / Long GOP structure ... all of a sudden imports would take as long as exports!!

I don't necessarily always want a single clip in the NLE either. But if I have the option to set the camera to expand existing clips when recording, instead of creating a new one each time (preferably keeping mutiple essence marks for easy navigation), then on import i can subclip as I choose, just as i do now with long interview clips, or as I would if I was log and capturing from tape.

Currently XDCAM Transfer is limited in that it doesn't let you mark and import a single subclip or selection of subclips from a single clip where multiple subclips are marked, instead it imports all marked subclips from that clip everytime you press import ... if Sony allowed us to import single or selected subclips then we'd have a workflow we could use.

Just my thoughts ... and how I'd make it work for me if I could!

Currently XDCAM Transfer is limited in that it doesn't let you mark and import a single subclip or selection of subclips from a single clip where multiple subclips are marked, instead it imports all marked subclips from that clip everytime you press import ... if Sony allowed us to import single or selected subclips then we'd have a workflow we could use.

If I understand you correctly, the workaround for that (I just verified it) is when you select "Make subclips from essence marks", look over the batch import list at the right. Select the subclips you DON"T WANT and press delete. They will be removed from the list and won't be imported. When you select import, you'll get a warning message about movie selections not in the subclip list. Respond with 'Don't Add'. So, you can implicitly select the subclips you don't want rather than the ones you do want. Hopefully the don't want list is shorter than the want list. ;-)

-gb-