I work for JVC.

There are of course various questions about this product.

It began to ship the other day, the first 30 pieces had airshipped and those were then shipped to dealers. The next couple hundred are on a boat and they too will go to fill backorders.

I shot with one of these production units (#19) and it does take getting used to. And it did give a higher definition resolution in the image. I should have used a tripod, I think steady support will be more important with this camera than with SD, even with OIS. Admittedly I am a shoulder shooter by preference.

Also the output of this camera is going to look better on better display devices. While this may seem like a silly thing to say, it is HD and if the display device isn't HD the images won't look the same.

We have it here on the 50inch plasma and it looks fine. On the 42inch (which is not 720 lines) it doesn't look quite as good. But this is to be expected.

So time will tell. My own opinion hasn't changed, this is a usable tool for certain people. So you really need to demo one first at a dealer with a "REAL" HD display to judge it. We are at this time trying to strongly encourage dealers to have an HD display device. And no this doesn't mean a consumer-level supposedly HD TV.

BTW, I always ID myself as working for JVC, but in case you missed it in the name, I work for JVC. I have never posted anywhere with a different name.

Ken

Your presence here is greatly appreciated! Many thanks for the update,

Ken,

Are you talking about the GR-HD1 or the JY-HD10?

So Ken...any chance that they'll make a 25p or 24p version?

I refer to the JY-HD10U unit since I work in the pro group.

While I do not run JVC or set its policy, I do not expect a 24p model at all. I realize some have their hearts set on making their dream movie on HD and converting to 35mm but at JVC we just don't have the resources to be everything to everyone like our friends at Panasonic and Sony.

And frankly we don't see a future in film and digital cinema is 30p. Our work in that area is D-VHS and DILA which have already had a tremendous impact on Hollywood.

Please understand this is not a call for the same old 24p discussion, I'm just telling it like will be. Same as MPEG2. The future isn't any of the formats like DV or any of the others, it is MPEG2 data. There won't be formats on VCRs, nor film on reels, just data on disk drives. And that is 30p.

I suspect there has to be a PAL unit but I don't know that either. I just think there has to be.

<<<-- Originally posted by Ken Freed JVC : I work for JVC.

I should have used a tripod, I think steady support will be more important with this camera than with SD, even with OIS.

++++++++

So you really need to demo one first at a dealer with a "REAL" HD display to judge it. We are at this time trying to strongly encourage dealers to have an HD display device. And no this doesn't mean a consumer-level supposedly HD TV.

-->>>

As Ken points out -- the MTV shakicam look does not look good when seen widescreen on a big screen. That's why movie maker's used to be very skilled at carrying a camera, and today, Steadicam is used so much. HD may bring back tripods. :)

About the monitor. The point is that 720p60 will look best on a display that has a native 16:9 AR with 1280x720 pixels. Where can you find these?

I'm not going to get near "what's a REAL HDTV!" When you buy an RPTV you get what you pay for. However, most -- even HD's with 7-inch CRTs -- can display the measured HD resolution of the HD10!

Fixed structure devices are different.

Obviously, 480-line plasmas will lose vertical resolution. (Plus, most plasmas have terrible noise problems.)

XGA and DLP projectors have the right vertical resolution, but are not 16:9, so the effective vertical resolution is reduced to get the right AR. (The H rez is adequate.)

So that leaves those wonderful Mustang DLP projectors and the top of line SXGA LCD projectors.

Bottom-line, people watch HD on all sorts of "HD" displays and enjoy it. We know it would look better if we had a $15,000 projector. (But, then we would argue about which one!)

The point is not to judge a camera through a cheap display!

If most of the HD you produce will be seen on top-end plasmas/projectors, try the camera with these. If you most of it will be seen on ordinary HDTVs, there's nothing wrong with viewing it this way.

Slightly (well...) O.T.

I would also like to thank Ken for contributing. It is refreshing to hear input from someone at JVC rather than just more speculation from the rest of us.

I wonder Ken if you know of any way to contact (email) a JVC camcorder engineer with questions about JVC camcorder functions - (not particularly the HD unit - consumer cams etc.) . Down here in Oz our tech support is well... wanting - and if you have a 'function' question - i.e. not fault related, it is dismissed outright. I'd like to talk to someone who knows how the cameras work internally and not just the standard "...Um, that's a camcorder right? Let me just get the manual..." response to a call or mail.

You might know you might not. Thanks again for your contributions here.

Best,

David.

Steve--Now that the camera's shipping, will your book be coming out soon? I'm hoping you can give us specific suggestions for products to purchase as well. This discussion on monitors is a good example. Products that will be forward-looking and won't be obsolete in one year! If we're going to make the plunge into the brand new world of economical HD production, please get us started on the right foot.

If youre saying you recommend at least a pro level HDTV device to view its footage then I believe the camera is not that good. What successful camera (pro or consumer) ever needed a good display to show its strong points? If you're banking on required equipment everyone's suppose to have, then you're kidding yourself. I've seen great downconverted HD video on my crappy 20 year old Commodore Monitor. If your camera can't display well on a $3000 sony XBR properly then it aint good in my opinion.

Yang,

you echoed exactly what I was thinking...if the majority of people (including those with 'cheap' HDTVs) can't see a good picture from it, it's of pretty limited value to say the least.

AT LAST!!!! The voice of reason...and it comes from JVC itself. 24p is a thing of the past. Long live 30p.

<<<-- Originally posted by Steve Mullen: As Ken points out -- the MTV shakicam look does not look good when seen widescreen on a big screen -->>>

Somebody should have told Soderberg about this before he released "Full Frontal" ;-)

24p is a thing of the past.? Man I thouhgt JVC was a little out to lunch... but damn!

If anyone gets a chance to see the JVC footage on an Apple 23" Cinema Display (HD) then please post their observations here....I'm sure people here would like to hear the verdict.

<<<-- Originally posted by Nigel Moore : Yang, you echoed exactly what I was thinking...if the majority of people (including those with 'cheap' HDTVs) can't see a good picture from it, it's of pretty limited value to say the least. -->>>

I think I already explained what Ken hopefully ment to say. (And, certainly what JVC's position is.) To get MAXIMUM pix quality use a progressive display with at least 1280x720 rez. These devices are very expensive -- hence his comment about cheap HDTVs.

But this is a good time to say that I suspect there is not a lot of understanding about plasmas, plus LCD and DLP projectors amongst NTSC video folks. (In fact, perhaps not about rear-projection HDTV.)

Like Ken, I fear we will see folks connecting the camcorder to an uncalibrated interlaced HDTV at Sears and saying it doesn't look great.

Also, an LCD RGB computer monitor, even Apple's, very likely does not color-space or gamma match an HD display. (Nor an NTSC display. That's why folks don't color correct using their RGB monitor!)

By the way, a SMPTE-C phosphor monitor does not display the HD color-space either. So that's not the way to judge HD color accuracy.

In short, you'll need calibrated high-quality HD tools (your NTSC vectorscope is not valid for HD) to make judgements.

For viewing, use whatever you've got.

I wasn't thinking about the videographer, but the final target audience. If all clients are going to need $15k's worth of HDTV to get the benefit from this...well, it ain't gonna happen.

Steve,

Can you name an HDTV off the top of your head (a brand) that I could go to Circuit City and buy to demo this camera in a week? Circuit City's liberal return policy makes this very easy.

Thanks,

heath

<<<-- Originally posted by Steve Mullen : <<<-- Originally posted by Nigel Moore : Yang, you echoed exactly what I was thinking...if the majority of people (including those with 'cheap' HDTVs) can't see a good picture from it, it's of pretty limited value to say the least. -->>>

I think I already explained what Ken hopefully ment to say. (And, certainly what JVC's position is.) To get MAXIMUM pix quality use a progressive display with at least 1280x720 rez. These devices are very expensive -- hence his comment about cheap HDTVs.

But this is a good time to say that I suspect there is not a lot of understanding about plasmas, plus LCD and DLP projectors amongst NTSC video folks. (In fact, perhaps not about rear-projection HDTV.)

Like Ken, I fear we will see folks connecting the camcorder to an uncalibrated interlaced HDTV at Sears and saying it doesn't look great.

Also, an LCD RGB computer monitor, even Apple's, very likely does not color-space or gamma match an HD display. (Nor an NTSC display. That's why folks don't color correct using their RGB monitor!)

By the way, a SMPTE-C phosphor monitor does not display the HD color-space either. So that's not the way to judge HD color accuracy.

In short, you'll need calibrated high-quality HD tools (your NTSC vectorscope is not valid for HD) to make judgements.

For viewing, use whatever you've got. -->>>

Hi,
A previous poster asked for impressions of the HD1 image as viewed on an Apple HD 23" cinema Display.
I played two clips from the HD1 ( the jellyfish clip and another fish tank clip that was posted online) on this display full-screen using the VLAN player on the Mac.
My impression was that the resolution of the picture was way beyond anything achievable with any DV SD camera that I know of. The detail was rich enough that it made me wonder if the footage was actually from this low cost camera.
As for color reproduction, I really can't judge, as those clips were not good to judge it by. They were tinted by glass and water produced artifacts. In the Jellyfish clip, which has a lot of blacks in it, I did notice some blocky artifacting in certain areas of the blacks, not sure if this was camera, compression, or low-light induced . The reds seemed to be blooming a bit to me also, I really want to get a hold of this camera and do a side by side comparison with my Ikegami, which has one of the best DV images out there. and see how it holds out.
I did do a quick comparison with some high-end shot DV footage, and the JVC HD1 footage definately looked much more detailed and far less pixelated. You really have to view on a HD monitor to appreciate this.

All the best

<<<-- Originally posted by Heath McKnight : Steve,

Can you name an HDTV off the top of your head (a brand) that I could go to Circuit City and buy to demo this camera in a week? Circuit City's liberal return policy makes this very easy. -->>>

Since there are no 720p HDTVs -- the answer is no. :(

But, if you use either the HD10's or the TVs up-converter then you can use any HDTV. I've heard nothing but great things about Hitachi's 53-inch.

I'ts about $2,700. There are others at only $1,500 -- but they are smaller and likely have compromises.

But whatever you get, you must get it ISF calibrated!

Does CC carry the HD1?

Thanks, Steve. Doesn't look like they're selling the Hd-1 at Circuit City or any of the other similar places. My original intentions were to buy that from CC and test it, then return it, then buy an HD10. Of course, the HD10 and HD1 are rumored to be slightly different in picture, I think.

mysimon.com had a listing, mostly of mail order PC/Mac and video box houses. Even Gateway sells it, probably for their new, non-HD plasma flat panel TV. All for $3495, or so; of course, this lady in Boca Raton, FL (where I'll be demoing the HD10 next week) says they're selling the HD10 for $3400. Oh, and nothing on the HD10 at mysimon.com.

I wonder who'll be the first of us to write a review??

Heath McKnight
9:04 AM, a new film from MPS Digital Studios
www.904am.com


<<<-- Originally posted by Steve Mullen : <<<-- Originally posted by Heath McKnight : Steve,

Can you name an HDTV off the top of your head (a brand) that I could go to Circuit City and buy to demo this camera in a week? Circuit City's liberal return policy makes this very easy. -->>>

Since there are no 720p HDTVs -- the answer is no. :(

But, if you use either the HD10's or the TVs up-converter then you can use any HDTV. I've heard nothing but great things about Hitachi's 53-inch.

I'ts about $2,700. There are others at only $1,500 -- but they are smaller and likely have compromises.

But whatever you get, you must get it ISF calibrated!

Does CC carry the HD1? -->>>

Bottom line-

will the JVC deliver markedly better video (color, sharpness, clarity) than that as offered by current 3-ccd cameras?

Can the video be editied by FCP or any other NLE's as easily as current DV video? Or do we have to deal with mpeg-2 type footage and it's intracasies?

Inquiring minds want to know.

<<<-- Originally posted by Steve Mullen : Since there are no 720p HDTVs -- the answer is no. : -->>>

I'm trying to understand this HDTV stuff, because *someday* I'll take the plunge. Why do you say this? The Sony WEGA LCD KLV-23HR1 sells for about $2,500 and claims to be 720p in the specs, with a resolution of 768x1280. Is this not true?

http://www.sonystyle.com/is-bin/INTERSHOP.enfinity/eCS/Store/en/-/USD/SY_DisplayProductInformation-Start;sid=bfUolko1Ie8ot3TWhzMinQUl81BEI8ZpBfs=?CatalogCategoryID=hUYKC0%2eNhr4AAAD1TzhbXJwZ&Dept=tv&TemplateName=item%2fsy_item_a&ProductID=fuMKC0%2eNCsAAAAD13zdbXJwf&ContentItemPage=

Boyd,

I'm with you re: the interest in this camera. I have a Mitsubishsi 65" HDTV and am wondering if the footage is going to look HD-ish (spectacular) or just average? The Apple Cinema Display 23" is another question- how would the footage look there? (I'm running 1920X1200 res)

Can I edit the footage with FCP3 as easily as DV using the HD feature- or do I have to shoot in SD which I am assuming to mean Standard Def (miniDV)......lots of questions......is the standard def = to what our 3CCD cams are producing....??

..thank goodness for all the intelligent posters on these forums who can answer our questions.

<<<-- Originally posted by Steve Nunez : Boyd,

I'm with you re: the interest in this camera. I have a Mitsubishsi 65" HDTV and am wondering if the footage is going to look HD-ish (spectacular) or just average? The Apple Cinema Display 23" is another question- how would the footage look there? (I'm running 1920X1200 res)

Can I edit the footage with FCP3 as easily as DV using the HD feature- or do I have to shoot in SD which I am assuming to mean Standard Def (miniDV)......lots of questions......is the standard def = to what our 3CCD cams are producing....??

..thank goodness for all the intelligent posters on these forums who can answer our questions. -->>>

No on FCP, but yes, I believe, on Premiere 6.5 for PC only.

Look at the specs, the HD10 is the lowest point that is considered HD, and yet it's still better than DV, as far as I can tell. I head back to Florida from L.A. next week and hope the company I'm buying from has another in stock (they have one but are predicting it will sell out quickly) for me to demo. So, look for a review from me, hopefully.

And the camera should be fine on your TV.

heath
9:04 AM, a new film coming from MPS Digital Studios
www.904am.com

When you say "no for FCP" is this because FCP doesn't edit mpeg-2 yet- if FCP4 can edit mpeg-2 will it then be possible or is it that you'd need some proprietary software that's pc only to edit the footage? Is the mpeg-2 coming in via firewire?
Could I still edit the DV material with FCP?

If FCP can edit mpeg-2 (has to be a future consideration) i'm wondering if it then can be used with this camera..if not then it's a camera for the non-Mac crowd which would be ashame.
I was already envisioning my future hawk videos/(nature) as being HD- big bold and beautiful on my tv set- why can't I ever be happy?????

(sorry about these silly questions- but i have got some cash burning a hole in my pocket and just trying to make sure my FCP system can edit the HD produced by this camera- or at the very least the DV stuff til Apple adds mpeg-2 functionality)

FCP 4 won't, but FCP 4.0.1 probably will. It comes with a not-so-great editor you can use with an XP system. And, though PCs are okay by me (in Linux), I don't like or use Windows!

You can edit DV (not sure about SD, but I'm sure it will) with it.

I hear ya, I have a 4+ year old XL-1 (anyone wanna buy it?) and need to upgrade. If you can wait, the rumored XL-2, which may come out this fall or next spring, may be HD. If Canon comes out with a seperate HD camera, the XL cameras will die. That's my theory.

heath
904am.com

<<<-- Originally posted by Steve Nunez : When you say "no for FCP" is this because FCP doesn't edit mpeg-2 yet- if FCP4 can edit mpeg-2 will it then be possible or is it that you'd need some proprietary software that's pc only to edit the footage? Is the mpeg-2 coming in via firewire?
Could I still edit the DV material with FCP?

If FCP can edit mpeg-2 (has to be a future consideration) i'm wondering if it then can be used with this camera..if not then it's a camera for the non-Mac crowd which would be ashame.
I was already envisioning my future hawk videos/(nature) as being HD- big bold and beautiful on my tv set- why can't I ever be happy?????

(sorry about these silly questions- but i have got some cash burning a hole in my pocket and just trying to make sure my FCP system can edit the HD produced by this camera- or at the very least the DV stuff til Apple adds mpeg-2 functionality) -->>>

<<<-- No on FCP, but yes, I believe, on Premiere 6.5 for PC only. -->>>

I've been editing sample clips using FCP 3.0 on my iMac for the last 2 weeks. And exporting them as MPEG-2-TS movies.

The currently missing link is a way to import and export the MPEG-2-TS via FireWire. When that function is released, one will be able to output edited files to D-VHS and very likely to Sony's BluRay HD-DVD recorder.

P 6.5 will not edit on the Mac.

But Vegas Video supposedly will edit fine. Something I will test when I get my review unit.

<<<-- Originally posted by Boyd Ostroff : <<<-- Originally posted by Steve Mullen : Since there are no 720p HDTVs -- the answer is no. : -->>>

The Sony WEGA LCD KLV-23HR1 sells for about $2,500 and claims to be 720p in the specs, with a resolution of 768x1280. Is this not true? -->>>

You are likely right about the Sony. But I don't consider anything less than 53" to be HD -- no matter what its resolution.

The logic behind HD is enough rez to have great quality on pix big enough to fill your entire visual field.

NTSC should not be viewed any bigger than 27" -- although I find 35" to be fine.

That's why I'm interested. If I wanted a camera for TV viewing I'd choose the DVX100.

But for "cinema" (6 foot or bigger screen) viewing, not even a 480p DVD really looks good. Only HD looks good at these sizes. And, that's why I'm not overly concerned if cheaper 3 CCD DV cameras look better. They CAN"T look good when projected to cimema sizes.

And, JVC's market is "private cinema."

<<<-- Originally posted by Steve Mullen :The logic behind HD is enough rez to have great quality on pix big enough to fill your entire visual field. -->>>

Well that depends on how close your nose is to the screen! ;-) I see some big plasma screens that I like, but not quite ready to drop $6,000 to $8,000 yet....

I would like to try the various MPEG editors I currently use with some 19.7 Mbps footage. I've viewed the DVD quality samples, but to actually do edits I will need the raw 19.7 streams.

Anyone know where I can acquire some/any?

Thanks.

Will JVC offer any DVD samplers to show what this camera can do? sort of like the CineAlta DVDs. Very helpful for us.