We are looking to move from Avid Xpress DV to either Premiere or Vegas. We don't do a lot of editing. Some talking heads type interviews (20 min to 2 hrs) and short training informational videos (20 min. max). We need to import/export MPG 2 and would also like to network the 3+ systems we'll have. We shoot on P2 and DVCPRO. As of now we're leaning towards Premiere, because of native P2 ingesting and the integration of Photoshop, After Effects. Anything else we should be aware of?

Premiere is hit or miss depending on your hardware and setup. Here's my issues on two workstations (amd opteron powered BOXX, and dual xeon Dell 650). Please note, these may not apply to you, as others are not having these issues. Also I use cineform based projects, so your results may vary:

1) A playback head the freezes when using dual monitors.
2) A title tool that forgets it's settings and position each time it's opened.
3) Large jpeg and tiff images that refuse to preview or render, and require reboot and/or relinking.
4) Images that flip upside down on their own.
5) The horrible audio drift that occurs when dropping a video frame, requiring manual cut and sync.
6) The wonderful apology of were sorry, a serious error had occurred and the application has to be closed.
7) The constant error of system running low of memory, save your work...
8)Power point slides saved as tiffs, import as 1 frame video clips. I had to batch covert to high quality jpegs to be recognized as images.

Of all the issues, the audio drift is the most concerning. I did not discover that issue until I cut my first live presentation on it, (my previous jobs since CS2 were all voiced over).

Vegas has a fully functional demo, while Premiere is crippled, (you'll have to make a purchase to really know if it will work in your case).

I would test this on one of your machines and be mindful of the thirty-day return policy.

I'm going the Mac on FCP route. Vegas would an interim option just to get work done. Again, that just in my case, which may not apply to you.

Good luck.

Peter, are these problems listed on Premiere CS3 or CS2? It seems in most of the world's opinion, CS3 isn't ready for primetime yet. CS2 might be a better comparison for Vegas right now. Unless those are CS2 results, in which case, you have waaaay too much patience to put up with that for 2 years. ;)

Peter: It would be helpful to know which version of Premiere you're using. The problems you list are major.

Thanks.

I should have added that FCP is not an option. Our editing solution needs to be PC-based.

I should have added that FCP is not an option. Our editing solution needs to be PC-based.

Amen! :)

There are too few of us it seems. ;)

It's not patience, it just being that busy. These are CS3 issues. CS2 just crashed at random when I scrubbed the timeline over large tiffs, or during a render. CS3 Beta actually worked, and I cut a few jobs on it and was convinced to go for the CS3 upgrade.

I actually used 1.5.1 far into the CS2 cycle, only switching when folks at cineform were a few versions into support.

At the very least, in the interim, my only recourse is to step back to 1.5.1 and/or resume cutting SD projects. (I have a local vendor whom is checking on someone in the area that can put me in front of a MacPro with FCP).

I've never considering switching until my job depended on it.

Have you tried doing a clean install of Windows? And how large are your Tiffs? Super high res images can cause problems moving around in memory. If they're large, maybe you could scale them down to output size?

Peter's list of shortcomings is making me think seriously about Vegas. The major downside of Vegas, at this point, is having to use Raylight to convert P2 files.

Edward,

Vegas is a pretty nice program. I just bought the Adobe Production Premium and I do plan on using it. But for many edits Vegas is still just so quick to do things in. Premiere feels clunky to me.

One of my major complaints about Vegas has been the incredibly lame titler. However they have just released a new titler in version 8. It's not perfect and I still like the Premiere titler better for basic font control etc. but it's big step in the right direction (including some pretty advanced text animation capabilities). Give the Vegas demo a try and watch a few tutorials to see how the program works. You might find it fits your editing style.

Good luck,

Marc

Have you looked at Edius?

Ron Evans

Marc: Coming from Avid Xpress, the Vegas title tool doesn't seem like much of an issue.

When I get some time I'm going to try the Vegas demo.

Ron: We haven't looked at Edius. What kind of audio editing capabilities does it have (That's why we've looked mainly at Premiere and Vegas)?

Have you tried doing a clean install of Windows? And how large are your Tiffs? Super high res images can cause problems moving around in memory. If they're large, maybe you could scale them down to output size?


Been there, done that -twice (and not because I liked it :)

I have two completely different workstations, both in spec, and both exhibit the same issues. (So it must be the hardware :)

Big tiffs were a problem in CS2, and low rez jpegs helped. In the CS3, it don't matter. Only work around was rendering out a clip and replace. Tedious.

My recent audio slippage is due to dropped frames in video. The audio loses sync on a dropped frame and has to be manually adjusted. This is evident regardless of PPro capture tool, or stand alone HDlink capture and import.

Others have verified this. I'm not alone. Still others have zero issues.

High res jpegs should work just like high res tiffs. they both will use the same amount of ram when decompressed (width x height x bits), regardless of format. So lower resolution tiffs would work. I personally prefer 24 bit png, or 32 bit with alpha. If the image isn't very detailed, it'll compress nicely, but it's lossless. I guess compressed tifs would be the same, but i think png compression might be better.

Sounds like a huge mess there though. Yeah, 2 separate systems, must be the hardware. ;)

I didn't know anyone had CS2 problems, that stinks..

Newtek SpeedEDIT is pretty sweet and I don't know of any life altering problems with that one. ;)

...Newtek SpeedEDIT is pretty sweet and I don't know of any life altering problems with that one. ;)

Only issue I hear is a slight delay with the playback head in response to the spacebar. Which happens regardless of SD or HD material.

SpeedEDIT uses background render to avoid buffer issues, so does liquid, which I hear also does well. I have a Video Toaster 3, and have thought about going back to uncompressed. You only need fast disks and storage is cheap these days. VT5 is not out yet.

Vegas uses a better proxy estimation than premieres "draft" mode. You can reduce the image in vegas as a compromise to keep editing RT. It's just a very different interface. V8 now has 32bit, but at the cost of killing any decent playback. However, I have used Vegas to render a few Premiere projects that crashed. AFF is good feature.

I think I FCP will be a shorter learning curve.

Maybe an upgrade to VT4 would be the way to go then?

No, VT4 is still limited to SD. The only real advantage to a VT system is for live production. I don't as much of that anymore. However, what I do like about VT3 is the application skins that mimic real hardware devices (like adobe's onLocation). Which makes for great presentation when editing with clients. VT5 is going to have SpeedEDIT as it's editor.

I'm also seeing other benefits of having a mac workstation on hand (compatibility with other studios, etc.). So I think my decision is justified.

Ahh I see..

Or you could run OSx86 and run FCP on a PC, since Macs are basically PCs at this point.. *evil grin*

Eric :)

I've already read up on OSx86 (I've used linux, Ubuntu is my fav -so I am familiar with tweaking). However, I'm just too busy. From a business decision, I need support and warranty.

There is a shop about an hour away that has the quad MacPro available for customers to try out. I've been told to bring my camera and will have all day to cut a project on it if I want.

However, in keeping with this thread, if I were to stick with a PC solution in PPro vs Vegas. It would appear that Vegas provides the best guarantee for stability and getting the job done. CS3 may require a significant patch to address the issues I've described. However, in regards to how they've addressed patches for CS2 (i.e. none), I'm not going to hold my breath.

It is hard to judge any editing system based on just comments of those who have had issues with it. There are thousands and thousands of Adobe Premiere users out there and they and I would not keep buying it if they continually had problems.

As far as updates go, Adobe CS3 has manual and automatic updates and I have gotten several since my installation, just a few months ago!

The Adobe CS3 is about as comprehensive and all inclusive as you can find in an editing package. It includes the industry standards of After Effects Pro, and Photoshop CS3 Extended, along with a dozen or so other items such as On Location and Ultra.

With CS3 you can do most anything YOU are capable of doing. I have a friend here who works at a local TV station. The station uses CS2 and now CS3 as their software.

Just remember that most of those who will post responses to these questions, will be those who have had issues. It's just like those who post problems with their cameras. You never see anyone start a thread that says, "OK, it's one year now and no problems with my camera!" "How about everyone else?" It will always be those who have had problems who will start the post.

If all computers were exactly the same with all of the same components, there would be no problems. And, hardware is just the start. You have to add all the drivers from various places too. That can make any program misbehave.

Just a thought from another user.

M

I'll chime in here. I've finished cutting a feature on Premiere Pro (2), and I've previously cut a feature-length project on FCP. My standard line is that I'm generally platform/application-agnostic. In terms of functionality, they're very close; I would expect an FCP user to be able to sit down in front of PPro and start cutting, and vice-versa.

(I've never used Vegas myself, but those I know who have like it quite a bit. That said, I don't know anyone who has used it for a large long-form project, or in a relatively complicated post workflow.)

I've experienced my share of issues with PPro, but then I certainly experienced an equal share of issues with FCP. Neither is perfect. It's the price you pay, I think, for being able to cut a feature-length project on a desktop machine.

PPro is certainly appealing in its integration and interoperability with other Adobe products, particularly After Effects. Being able to import an edited PPro project into AE for 32-bit floating-point colour-correction complete with masking and precise keyframing and other finishing is very nice. Using Cineform allows for what can probably be objectively demonstrated to be the highest-quality intermediate/workflow on a desktop.

The one bit of advice I can offer in general to anyone regardless of platform or application(s) is to know your workflow. Plan carefully, and then when you think you've got it covered, plan some more. Test everything you can, understand the basic technical underpinnings, and know what limitations or workarounds you may run into. Because enough other things are going to pop up down the road that you'll at least want to not have to worry about the things you do have control over going in.

For basic editing, such as your case seems to entail, I wouldn't expect to have any problems with PPro, and certainly none of the traumatic ones that have been listed earlier in this thread.

Thanks to all of you who've responded.

I'm currently fighting Avid to get a project finished. Once I finalize this, I'll be checking out demos of Vegas & Premiere. I'll let you all know what we decide.

Thanks again.

Edward

Good luck Edward, and cheers to you for trying to pull away from the death grip of Avid and their continuing quest to sell hardware for stuff that should be able to be with software alone (read: every other NLE on the market) :)

Eric

I agree. As I've said before,
....If all computers were exactly the same with all of the same components, there would be no problems. And, hardware is just the start. You have to add all the drivers from various places too. That can make any program misbehave.
M

That hits the nail on the head for getting a MacPro with FCP. Besides the fact that I did have both workstations with only, I repeat, only CS3 and XP installed, and still verified the problems.

If I wasn't having issues, I wouldn't be posting them. True. As I've said before, this is only my experience on my hardware. Despite the fact that the adobe forums are filled with others with the same issues. I can only go by my own experience.

I've just wrapped up my twentieth HD project in three months on CS3 (I cut in-house corporate media for about 12 marketing managers and trainers, they keep me very busy). Despite my shortcomings, I've realized a good ROI. The cost of outsourcing just one project is nearly times the cost of the software upgrade.

I've used Premiere for many years, since v 5.2 with a pinnacle DV200, VTNT, and DVStorm2. Up until CS2, it was smooth sailing. I have a Dell 650 precision workstation that is five years old, and all versions of Premiere up to 1.5.1 run perfectly on that machine.

It's quite obvious to see where I stand on this issue. Obviously CS3 does not work well on Dell 650's and BOXX 7400's. Therefore I should purchase another workstation. If I'm going to do that, then I might as well get a Mac.

OK folks, at least we can agree one thing. Threads getting old. Good luck Edward.

Peter's list of shortcomings is making me think seriously about Vegas. The major downside of Vegas, at this point, is having to use Raylight to convert P2 files.

By the way you don't have to "convert" P2 files using Raylight, you can drag the MXF files directly into the project.