Howdy from Texas,

Mike Schell of Convergent Designs has graciously consented to let DV Info Net make available for download their recently released F.A.Q. document in .PDF format which covers their forthcoming Flash XDR Portable HD Recorder Update:

"Since the introduction at IBC of Flash XDR, the first ultra-portable Compact Flash based HD Recorder; we have received a large number of inquiries and questions. We have summarized these questions and created a lengthy FAQ document for your review.

Also, we have made a number of very exciting changes / enhancements to the design:

1. The maximum MPEG2 compressed data-rate has been increased
to 160 Mbps 4:2:2 I-Frame or 100 Mbps 4:2:2 Long-GOP.

2. The number of Compact Flash Card slots has been increased from 2 to 4,
so the record times are now doubled or you can set up the system in a RAID 1 configuration
and automatically write the same video data to 2 cards simultaneously (auto-backup).

3. Added the capability to automatically remove the pulldown on 1080i60/59.94
HD-SDI stream and create a 1080p23.98/24 recording. Also, the image can be
flipped to compensate for the effect from some cine lenses.

4. AES digital audio has been replaced with balanced analog audio inputs / outputs,
which is the more common production format. The balanced audio inputs are switch-
able between line-level and microphone level. A 48V phantom power can be enable
with microphone inputs. Also, a microphone pre-amp is included with programmable
10 to 65 dB gain.

5. We have settled on FAT32 file system and MXF file format for storage
on Compact Flash. MXF is widely supported by major NLE programs.

6. DC power input plug is now an industry standard 4-pin XLR. We are
working on cabling and mounting options for different camcorders and
battery options.

"All the technology for Flash XDR is available now (we’re not waiting for some “magic” new chip). So, we are pouring the coffee and working as fast as possible to complete the design. We plan to have shippable units sometime in Q1 2008."

Here's the Updated Flash XDR F.A.Q. document for download (16 pages; about 690kb):

I have a question ... if shooting 1080p24, when you mics connected directly to the XDR, does it record the audio to match the frame rate of the video?

Hi Michael-
Good question. Yes, we have taken this issue into consideration. When going from 1080i59.94 to 1080p23.98 you have to spread the audio samples over fewer frames. It's not difficult, but absolutely required to make the audio sound proper.

Mike Schell

Hi Mike,

So I am assuming you will have this implemented in your final device? Will it be automatic? Or will it have to be switchable?

Mike,

As someone who has been working a lot with I frame only mpeg2 video what was the reason for sticking with a max of 160mbits/s and 100 mbits/s GOP?

I usually work with 300 mbit/s I frame only files but find this is a little overkill. I have been trying to find the sweet spot between size and quality and was just curious as to how you felt 160 was a great level for quality? To be honest I also use a lot of 150 mbit I frame only encodes and they look pretty darn close to the 300 mbit versions. Have you also found there really isn't much gain between 150 and 300 or is it more of a balance between record time and great quality? Really the only thing I ever noticed that got any better with higher then 150 bitrates was high contrast edge noise artifacts. Then again I am mostly encoding 3D and particle effect graphics to use inside of Liquid so they don't push the encoder as hard as realworld footage would.

I am very excited about the 160 mbit mode to use with a new SONY EX1.

Hi Mike,

So I am assuming you will have this implemented in your final device? Will it be automatic? Or will it have to be switchable?

Hi Michael-
The re-distribution of audio samples from 1080i59.94 to 1080p23.98 rate will be done automatically in the Flash XDR box. This occurs whenever you invoke the inverse telecine funtion. It's all transparent to the user.

Mike Schell

Mike,

As someone who has been working a lot with I frame only mpeg2 video what was the reason for sticking with a max of 160mbits/s and 100 mbits/s GOP?

I usually work with 300 mbit/s I frame only files but find this is a little overkill. I have been trying to find the sweet spot between size and quality and was just curious as to how you felt 160 was a great level for quality? To be honest I also use a lot of 150 mbit I frame only encodes and they look pretty darn close to the 300 mbit versions. Have you also found there really isn't much gain between 150 and 300 or is it more of a balance between record time and great quality? Really the only thing I ever noticed that got any better with higher then 150 bitrates was high contrast edge noise artifacts. Then again I am mostly encoding 3D and particle effect graphics to use inside of Liquid so they don't push the encoder as hard as realworld footage would.

I am very excited about the 160 mbit mode to use with a new SONY EX1.

Thomas-
To be perfectly honest, the 100 Mbps Long-GOP and the 160 Mbps I-Frame only modes are maximum rates available from the Sony MPEG2 CODEC. So, that's how we chose these rates. We do plan to post some comparison video shot at 25, 50, 100 and 160 Mbps rates (we'll feed the same HD-SDI stream to four of our boxes). So, you should be able to make some good visual comparisons.

Mike Schell

Hi Michael-
The re-distribution of audio samples from 1080i59.94 to 1080p23.98 rate will be done automatically in the Flash XDR box. This occurs whenever you invoke the inverse telecine funtion. It's all transparent to the user.

Mike Schell

That is awesome!

I know we may have not met in person before, but I think I've loved you for a very long time ...

LOL

I know we may have not met in person before, but I think I've loved you for a very long time ...

Well I've met him in person, and trust me he really is quite a dreamy hunk of a man.

So if you want him, you'll have to get in line.

Well I've met him in person, and trust me he really is quite a dreamy hunk of a man.

So if you want him, you'll have to get in line.

Well working in this industry, you have to be flexible and open about adapting to any situation that may arise ...

LOL

Well I've met him in person, and trust me he really is quite a dreamy hunk of a man.

So if you want him, you'll have to get in line.

Trust me, there is no line. If you ask my wife, I qualify as the biggest nerd on the planet.

Mike

Believe me Mike, that's a big part of your tremendous appeal.

I'm really pleased with your decision to increase the number of CF slots from 2 to 4 with an option to configure as RAID 1. I'm wondering if you guys have looked closely at the current availability of high-speed CF cards; they seem to be in very high demand right now. Congrats on taking a bright idea and making it even better,

I'm really pleased with your decision to increase the number of CF slots from 2 to 4 with an option to configure as RAID 1. I'm wondering if you guys have looked closely at the current availability of high-speed CF cards; they seem to be in very high demand right now. Congrats on taking a bright idea and making it even better,

Thanks. Increasing the number of CF slots turned out to be fairly straighforward and gave us the added benefit of either doubling the record time (now around 6 Hours at HDV rates) or recording the same data to two CF cards simultaneously (auto back-up).

There should be no problem getting plenty of high-speed CF cards, as there is a glut of NAND Flash chips on the market and the prices continue to fall.

Mike

There should be no problem getting plenty of high-speed CF cards, as there is a glut of NAND Flash chips on the market and the prices continue to fall.
My understanding has been that the 100Mbs mode doesn't need the highest spec of CF card, but that Sandisk Extreme III or equivalent should work fine, though download is unlikely to be much better than real time.

Can you confirm 100% whether this is indeed the case?

My understanding has been that the 100Mbs mode doesn't need the highest spec of CF card, but that Sandisk Extreme III or equivalent should work fine, though download is unlikely to be much better than real time.

Can you confirm 100% whether this is indeed the case?

Hi David-
Your understanding is correct. The SanDisk Extreme III card has a read / write speed of 20 MBps (or about 160 Mbps). That should be sufficient for 100 Mbps MPEG2 video + 2 channels of audio. Under these conditions, the download time is not much faster than 1:1.

A 16BGyte Extreme III Card is about $220, while the higher speed 8GByte Extreme IV card is about $190. So, you do pay a hefty price for the higher speed improvement. But the Extreme IV card with a FireWire 800 reader would reduce the download time in half.

Mike

Great work guys- really good.

In terms of card slot design, would this be similar to a card reader type- push and go with the card sticking out a bit or a recessed card, mechanical release.
Also would there be a "VTR" translucent styled flap- rubber sealed (dsr 450) once again with mechanical spring latch, entire design like a cigarette box.

With user interface and display how will you determine the end of "tape" warning- would this be user configurable- eg from 5mins -1min. switchable TC display- R Run etc and a "tape" counter with countdown option.

maybe an optional Portabrace protective cover.

modular design where you can stack the XDR's

simple led status- red=recording , green=card full for each slot.

and finally would information be displayed in the viewfinder.

its the red bull doing this...

specs haven't been released on the snadisk SxS cards, yet. But I bet expresscard is faster than CF card.

Maybe so, but as long as CF is fast enough for what you want to do, that's what counts.

specs haven't been released on the snadisk SxS cards, yet. But I bet expresscard is faster than CF card.
I don't think there's any doubt of that, and 100MBs (800Mbs) seems likely, versus 20MBs (160Mbs) of the Extreme III version of CF. But we're also looking at probably about $900 versus about $220. If the CF card is capable of recording the bitstream, it would appear that the only advantage all that extra money gets you is quicker downloading.

For some users the expense will be worth it. Others will happily forego it for the huge price difference.

[EDIT I see Chris beat me to it!]

You guys are right, of course. It's just that for the cost of the XDR, let's face it $5k ain't cheap, I would want as much flexibility and future proofness as possible. So, let's say I drop 5K on this thingie, and 6 months from now i buy a Sony XDCAM EX and want to use the 35MB/s datarate. OK, so I RAID 4 cf cards together to get the datarate. Fundamentally, the XDR is worthless to me unless it can accomodate future growth. Ya see? Can the XDR compete against the SxS cards that come with the XDCAM?

Ultimately, the cost of this thingie is high because C-D needs to recoup their non-recurring. (OK, they have some recurring licensing fees?)If enough are produced, the cost comes down. More likely, if this is really a great device, someone with mass production capability will step up to the plate. If SxS cards become de riguer over CF, the XDR will go down in flames as a loss leader.

What am I missing in this story?

Bill - I think you may be getting confused between MegaBITS (Mb) and MegaBYTES (MB). The highest native bitrate of the EX is 35M*bits*s (so a bit more than 4M*BYTES*s), or less than a quarter the max of an Extreme III card. There's no need to raid CF cards to record the EX native bitrate, and the significance of the XDR is that it will even record 3x that bitrate onto a single cheap card.

The XDR may not suit everybody, but it could be just what many need.

If SxS cards become de riguer over CF...Hmmm... while there's no question that SxS cards will achieve their own popularity, I doubt very highly that they'll ever see as much wide-spread use and acceptance as CF. Express Cards and SxS are relatively new and found mainly in somewhat specialized applications and devices, whereas Compact Flash is dug in, deeply entrenched in the market and no less popular now than they were before (what with D-SLR's, etc.). Can't see Compact Flash going away anytime soon...

Thanx David...you're right...doh!
Chris...of course CF cards are here to stay. I have a TON of them, already. In fact, I capture to an Extreme IV CF card over firewire and my laptop.
Bottom line...I really like the XDR, just gotta figure out how to pay for it. It's clear that an org with a large op budget doesn't have the issues I have with $5K. It's peanuts to a news organization.

I really like the XDR, just gotta figure out how to pay for it.Indeed -- it seems like anything that's SDI-equipped carries a big premium. Cost is always a relative issue; for some folks $5K is a bargain while for others it's a major stretch. I fall into the latter category. The question becomes, how quickly can you make this thing pay for itself.

Are specs more important that usability, practicality and durability ? majority of the thread has been dominated by technical specs- which is good but i am sure there are other factors to be taken into consideration than just figures, or is this something that is not important ?

Chris is right of course. How much is high quality worth to you? Sure it costs $5000.00 but if you need that level of quality chances are you make enough to buy this. For a lot of people they will not be able to earn any more moola then what they earn now with HDV. For example the wedding market. At the end of the day the client isn't going to notice the quality jump as much from regular HDV. If you have highend clients where HDV doesn't cut it then you will be fine buying this device. If you work mostly on experimental pieces you have to decide how much the experiment is worth to you. I like to think of this device as just another part of the camera.

As for the SxS cards on the EX1. Sure they are nice but some people may have to buy 4 cards. That equals pretty close to $3,600.00 just for the cards. What I hope to do is forget the cards get a EX1 and buy this device with 4 cheaper cards. sure it will still cost more doing it this way but not $5,000.00 more and in the process I will have much higher quality and hopefully a format that will actually work in my NLE unlike the mp4 wrapper format that needs to be re-wrapped.

Very good points Thomas. As far as my business is concerned, 100% of my clients still take delivery on SD DVD. Small quality improvements in HD are not only unknown to them, they don't even know the difference between HD and HDv. So, there you have it. And it will be quite some time before HDDVD or BD is a household name.

One thing I wonder about, tho'...Sandisk is a collaborator with Sony on the development of the SxS cards. Somehow, it would surprise me if Sandisk didn't find a way to leverage their share into cheaper eCards for the general public. PCMCIA is a legacy product. Express card 54/34 is coming for everyone.

Mike,

How about 720p support? I'm sure you will support 720p 60p but what about 720p 24p? Can you make the device also pull out the repeat frames when 24p sits inside of a 60p stream? I know this is a problem with 720p users who send 24p out of SDI as 60p. Of course all the JVC cameras do this and the new EX1 will also shoot and output 720p through SDI but again I think the EX1 will output the 24p 720p as 60p. As you know 720p 24p sitting inside of 60p is a huge waste of space and bitrates.

If we can have a 720p 24p mode will it have lower bitrate settings since 160 mbits is kind of overkill. According to my tests 120 mbits would be equal to the compression of 60p at 300 mbits. The equal quality level for 160 mbit would be around 64 mbits. 64 mbits would equal a lot of video on 4 cards but compression wise it would be just as clean as the 160 mbit 1080i.

What I like most about this product is its scalability. I can choose the quality and bitrate based on the specific production requirements. If I'm producing a project with a lot interviews then I might use a lower bit rate compression. This allows for more time/card space and the fact that a talking head doesn't have as much picture information to compress say as much as trees or lots of action.

If I'm bidding against someone for a car commercial say "running footage" package, then I might use the higher bit rate. But the cool thing is that it won't cost more for me to go out and rent HDCAM, use expensive tapes etc. In that sense it makes me more competitive on the higher end.

It is also flexible in that you can pick the camera of your choice. Use a JVC 250 if you want to use a lens adaptor, the XDCAM EX if you want 1080p/24 or even a Red and come out HDSDI.

I can use the same device for a wide variety of projects and that's where I think this device is revolutionary.

Are specs more important that usability, practicality and durability ? majority of the thread has been dominated by technical specs- which is good but i am sure there are other factors to be taken into consideration than just figures, or is this something that is not important ?

Hi Stil-
You raised a very good point. We agree 100%. The technical aspects are critical, but issues such as usability and ruggedness are equally important. We have calls from users wanting to put the box in helicopters and F-16s. So ruggedness is a top priority for us.

We also plan to engage with a number of users to review our box design as well as the menu structure and basic operation of the box. We're also discussing the camera mounting options with IDX and Anton Bauer.

While we have a very good understanding of the electronics and software in the box, we are relying on actual users, like yourself, to guide us on the "human interface" side of the design.

Mike Schell

Mike,

How about 720p support? I'm sure you will support 720p 60p but what about 720p 24p? Can you make the device also pull out the repeat frames when 24p sits inside of a 60p stream? I know this is a problem with 720p users who send 24p out of SDI as 60p. Of course all the JVC cameras do this and the new EX1 will also shoot and output 720p through SDI but again I think the EX1 will output the 24p 720p as 60p. As you know 720p 24p sitting inside of 60p is a huge waste of space and bitrates.

If we can have a 720p 24p mode will it have lower bitrate settings since 160 mbits is kind of overkill. According to my tests 120 mbits would be equal to the compression of 60p at 300 mbits. The equal quality level for 160 mbit would be around 64 mbits. 64 mbits would equal a lot of video on 4 cards but compression wise it would be just as clean as the 160 mbit 1080i.

Thomas makes a great point. Shoot at the most efficient bit rate based on what your shooting rez and frame rate. Red out HDSDI at 4:2:2 I frame 160Mbit 1080p/24 (which would look awesome I think) and a Canon HV20 via HDMI to HDSDI at a lower rate, maybe 50Mbit.

And to add to my post above, it may make sense to record at the bit rate that most efficiently encodes the resolution and frame rate that your shooting. For example, on an EX out HDSDI , 720p/24 at 100Mbits and 1080p/24 at 160Mbits.

Hmmm... while there's no question that SxS cards will achieve their own popularity, I doubt very highly that they'll ever see as much wide-spread use and acceptance as CF. Express Cards and SxS are relatively new and found mainly in somewhat specialized applications and devices, whereas Compact Flash is dug in, deeply entrenched in the market and no less popular now than they were before (what with D-SLR's, etc.). Can't see Compact Flash going away anytime soon...

There is no doubt that the Express Cards have a much higher potential read speed (800 Mbps) than current generation CF cards (160 Mbps Extreme III and 320 Mbps Extreme IV). But the actual read performance depends on the interface. Yes, you can get blazing speed when the Express Card is plugged into the PCIe expansion slot. But what if this slot is already occupied with a RAID disk array card or some other device? Then your forced to use a USB adapter, which will greatly reduce the download speed.

I do agree the SxS cards will find a following, but nothing like Compact Flash, which is used in zillions of DSLR cameras. I count 8-10 CF card manufacturers today with a huge sales channel. CF card prices have fallen some 40% in the last 12 months. All indications point to further price reductions as there is a glut of NAND Flash chips on the market. Competition works in our favor.

Mike

Mike,

How about 720p support? I'm sure you will support 720p 60p but what about 720p 24p? Can you make the device also pull out the repeat frames when 24p sits inside of a 60p stream? I know this is a problem with 720p users who send 24p out of SDI as 60p. Of course all the JVC cameras do this and the new EX1 will also shoot and output 720p through SDI but again I think the EX1 will output the 24p 720p as 60p. As you know 720p 24p sitting inside of 60p is a huge waste of space and bitrates.

If we can have a 720p 24p mode will it have lower bitrate settings since 160 mbits is kind of overkill. According to my tests 120 mbits would be equal to the compression of 60p at 300 mbits. The equal quality level for 160 mbit would be around 64 mbits. 64 mbits would equal a lot of video on 4 cards but compression wise it would be just as clean as the 160 mbit 1080i.

Thomas-
You raised a very good point. Thanks for pointing out the 720p24 support on the XDCAM EX camera, we had missed this point. We're 99% sure we'll be able to support this same rate, since the Sony module used in Flash XDR is the same MPEG2 CODEC used in the XDCAM EX camera (the module actually has 2 CODECs, so we can support the 4:2:2 profile). Removal of the pulldown for 720p is no problem since we already do it for 1080i video.

We're going to support MPEG2 Long-GOP (4:2:2) at 50 and 100 Mbps and MPEG2 I-Frame (4:2:2) at 50, 100 and 160 Mbps rates. You will be able to select these rates with any of the video formats. If you're shooting 1080p24, then 100 Mbps may be more than adequate or 720p24 will probably look great at 50 Mbps. You can make the final choice.

Mike

The question all this really begs to be answered is why there is no camera at this pricepoint which natively uses Compact Flash, and offers a choice of bitrates similar to the XDR?

P2 and SxS may be more appropiate for higher end products, and SD and MemoryStick for the lower end, but surely CF is the obvious choice for cameras in the EX/HVX sector?

That said, I'm sure Convergent Design are pleased about it....... :-)

In the, "For what it's worth" category...

nNovia is currently selling a direct to edit product that uses a 16MB solid state storage device that is pluggable into their QC Deck. Cost for this ruggedized option is about $1500 for the interface and $500 for the solid state cartridges(made by Audavi). Interface specs are for HDv over firewire, with an option for SD.

The reason CF card prices are falling is because all the manufacturers have paid off their non-recurring. Does C-D have the manufacturing capacity to pay their NR off? Do they have the market base? Do they even care? While the ENG base might number in the hundreds, the event videographer base must be in the thousands. Is it financially wise to ignore this base?

I just read from a Sony site that their USB SxS card reader has 240 Mbps read and 120 Mbps write capability. I'm sure the limitation is USB 2.0 I/O, not SxS card I/O.

In the, "For what it's worth" category...

The reason CF card prices are falling is because all the manufacturers have paid off their non-recurring. Does C-D have the manufacturing capacity to pay their NR off? Do they have the market base? Do they even care?

I just read from a Sony site that their USB SxS card reader has 240 Mbps read and 120 Mbps write capability. I'm sure the limitation is USB 2.0 I/O, not SxS card I/O.

Hi Bill-
To be honest, we have not even begun to think about the pay back on the non-recurring engineering costs. That's a long ways down the road....

Regarding the the SxS vs CF performance discussion, using a USB 2.0 reader, the Express card has a read speed of 240 Mbps, while the Extreme III CF card is about 140 Mbps (according to independent tests). So, the Express card is still faster, but you pay quite a premium for this added performance when using USB 2.0 reader. In my view, the Express card only has value if you're planning to use the PCIe slot for transfers.

BTW, Extreme IV cards have a read transfer rate of about 300 Mbps when combined with the Firewire 800 reader. But, the largest Extreme IV card available today is only 8GB ($145, after rebate). But, I expect we'll see 16GB Extreme IV cards next year.

I just checked B&H, Extreme III 16GB cards are now $200 (after rebate).

Mike

Mike...

Thanx for taking the time to provide some feedback. Interesting stuff, indeed.

Indeed -- it seems like anything that's SDI-equipped carries a big premium. Cost is always a relative issue; for some folks $5K is a bargain while for others it's a major stretch. I fall into the latter category. The question becomes, how quickly can you make this thing pay for itself.

$5K USD is a hefty point, and others bring up good reasons to buy in, but my concern is the near future. In my opinion Sony is raising the bar by offering the EX1. At $6,500 USD, this is an awesome deal. I would not be surprised if they had an "EX2" up their sleeves for the future that offered 4:2:2 within the cam to onboard memory. Especially with the price of memory improving as it has over the last year!

I think Sony has announced a 4:2:2 camera, but it's in the $35K price range.

Mike Schell

Hi MIke, I shoot using a DVCpro50 at 16:9 30p for DVD authoring.

Will your new product redord this stream in Panasonic XMF ir just Sony's XMF ?

Thanks, Patrick

Having a new look at the XDR spec sheet, I notice that whilst it talks of a Firewire OUTPUT, there's no mention of an INPUT.

I appreciate that most of the interest on this board is concerned with using it with the EX or a JVC camera and hence input via HD-SDI. Whilst that may well be a future use for me, at the moment my interests are primarily SD, DVCAM, and tapeless working, and it would be nice to avoid having to buy a Firestore in the interim, if this would be suitable. (And nice to avoid the fan noise and long boot up time..... :-) ) Hence, my question would be whether it would accept an input via Firewire? It would also be useful if it then also gave SDI out, so doubling as a Firewire to SDI convertor.

Hi Bill-
Regarding the the SxS vs CF performance discussion, using a USB 2.0 reader, the Express card has a read speed of 240 Mbps, while the Extreme III CF card is about 140 Mbps (according to independent tests). So, the Express card is still faster, but you pay quite a premium for this added performance when using USB 2.0 reader. In my view, the Express card only has value if you're planning to use the PCIe slot for transfers.
Mike

Not that I think you've picked the wrong horse with CF cards (they're much cheaper), but I just wanted to point out that a PC is not limited to one Express card slot... I don't want to post a link to a non sponsor but $US26.95 will buy you an Express Card to PCIe adapter.. and I think pretty soon notebooks will start doubling up their Express card slots in much the same way as they used to have 2 PCMCIA slots.

Eventually I think ExpressCard slots will become standard equipment on desktops as well as notebooks.

Not that I think you've picked the wrong horse with CF cards (they're much cheaper), ............
Eventually I think ExpressCard slots will become standard equipment on desktops as well as notebooks.
I made a few comments about this a while ago: http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=102312 . (Posts 15 and 22.)

I cetainly don't think CF is the wrong horse - but it would be good for the user to have the option which horse to back. I wondered about the possibility of 2 SxS slots, 2 CF? (Maybe with a possibility of SxS-CF adaptors to enable 4 CF cards if desired?)

I also still feel the market is crying out for a smaller, cheaper, lighter version - a "CF based, solid state, Firestore", IN ADDITION to the XDR.

Eventually I think ExpressCard slots will become standard equipment on desktops as well as notebooks.

...it would be good for the user to have the option which horse to back. I wondered about the possibility of 2 SxS slots, 2 CF? In all honesty the question of card format really is a non-issue here. The Convergent Designs XDR is a $5,000 unit which records from an SDI input, which is clearly a highly specialized application. Do you realize what a niche market that is. Obviously they're not going for broad market penetration here. What difference does it make if laptops have ExpressCard slots (in fact most new ones already do). So what -- not everybody who buys a laptop needs an SDI recorder. There's only a minority of SDI equipped camcorders in the first place, and if you have one and you can afford to add the XDR to your kit, then it's no big deal to add a CF card reader as well.

This isn't about backing a horse, as if there has to be a "winner" between CF and ExpressCard. Both formats are going to be around for quite awhile.

Well, now, Chris, it would seem to me(and what do I know) that a company is in business to make money. If more money can be made with the same, or less, investment dollars, wouldn't it be prudent to go for it? I guess, I don't understand C-D's marketing strategy by going for a very high dollar, specialized niche market, when a very similar (and cheaper) product could bring much more return on their development investment dollar.

By Mike Schell's own admission, C-D has goiven NO thought to return on their non-recurring engineering cost! What kind of company is that? Certainly not one I would want to buy stock in. It would appear C-D's agenda is not one many of us can understand. IMHO, C-D is really the first to market with a device that many. many videographers would LOVE to have. Unfortunately, their pricing philosophy is out of line with the majority of the market. Considering the potential for an affordable solid state, direct to edit device, C-D doesn't seem, to me anyway, be doing much for most small videographers.

I, for one, am sick to death of high priced technology that becomes obsolete within 6 months. How many businesses can afford $5K outlays that have a halflife of 6 months?

How much is that doggie in the window?

In all honesty the question of card format really is a non-issue here. ............

This isn't about backing a horse, as if there has to be a "winner" between CF and ExpressCard. Both formats are going to be around for quite awhile.
What you say is true if referred to a wholly self contained operation, but I was referring to my previous comment:
At the moment, much production (at least in the UK) is still SD widescreen, and the use of such DVCAM cameras as the DSR500/570/450 is very widespead. High Definition and tapeless working are on the agenda, and likely to form two essential items when camera upgrades are required.

In practice, the tapeless facility of a camera is likely to be used much earlier the High Definition capability, though this will obviously vary from user to user. A lot of advance interest has been generated by Sonys announcement of SxS development. A device such as yours with SxS cards would enable a broadcaster to move on to a solid state infrastructure based on that platform, without needing to immediately replace all existing cameras. It would also enable a DVCAM tape recording to be made as backup/archive simultaneously to a tapeless recording intended for more immediate use.

It would also be potentially very valuable to such as a freelance with a DSR450, who may be working for clients who start to demand SxS compatibility. Until they start to require HD, he would be able to satisfy their needs without having to buy another camera.

A device such as yours with SxS cards would enable a broadcaster to move on to a solid state infrastructure based on that platform... It would also be potentially very valuable... for clients who start to demand SxS compatibility.Point taken, but with only one SxS camcorder model about to debut, wouldn't you agree that we're still some ways off from the time when clients start to demand SxS compatibility? Who knows, perhaps by then Convergent Design will bring an SXS version of the XDR to market. For now, with the use of CF cards being more than sufficient for recording from SDI sources, and with CF cards being more affordable and more commonly found than SxS, doesn't it make sense to use them for the XDR in its current design?

I'll bet that a purchase of Convergent's CF-based XDR recorder will pay for itself several times over before the client demand for SxS really starts to hit; and by that time, perhaps Convergent will have a new SxS-based XDR recorder to transition into.

The reason why I prefer CF cards is because I could walk into any computer store or Best Buy and pick up a few if I had an emergency. That is something that may take a few years for SxS cards.

Everybody talks about off loading to a laptop but what happens if your laptop dies in the field. Trust me it has happened to me. You are going to need to quickly pick up a bunch of cards to record to which is going to be a heck of a lot cheaper then buying a new laptop. Not to mention it is much easier to go out in the field with dozens of CF cards then it is to haul around a laptop. With the low cost of CF cards I could almost see handing them off directly to a client and build the cost in just like tapes. Or I can tell the client to pick up a bunch of CF cards to bring to the shoot.

Like Chris said SxS cards are brand new. They aren't even really out yet. What if it becomes one of those once off formats that never picks up widespread usage? CF cards will be around for a long time yet and they will only get cheaper.

Point taken, but with only one SxS camcorder model about to debut, wouldn't you agree that we're still some ways off from the time when clients start to demand SxS compatibility? Who knows, perhaps by then Convergent Design will bring an SXS version of the XDR to market.
Indeed, but time scales are notoriously difficult to predict, and I do feel the whole impetus of solid state is starting to gather momentum now SxS has joined P2. Yes, the demand may still be a way off, but it takes time to bring product to market, so is it not therefore sensible to be making these suggestions NOW?

In answer to my points about SxS when first raised, Mike's reply was :
I also agree with your points on the SxS cards. As this format becomes more popular, many videographers will carry these cards as part of their basic kit, so compability will becomre more important. We'll continue to study this option for the future.

For now, with the use of CF cards being more than sufficient for recording from SDI sources, and with CF cards being more affordable and more commonly found than SxS, doesn't it make sense to use them for the XDR in its current design?
It makes perfect sense, and I agree that CF is probably currently a better choice than SxS (or P2, for that matter) for all but the top end cameras - I actually wish Sony had used them for the EX.

But having SxS capability *in addition* to CF far from precludes CF use, and whatever you and I may agree upon about CF, if a near future client demands SxS, our views become irrelevant. A hybrid XDR would satisfy that demand, without taking anything away from the product as it stands.

I am most certainly NOT arguing for SxS INSTEAD of CF, but rather as well as.

Well, now, Chris, it would seem to me(and what do I know) that a company is in business to make money. If more money can be made with the same, or less, investment dollars, wouldn't it be prudent to go for it? I guess, I don't understand C-D's marketing strategy by going for a very high dollar, specialized niche market, when a very similar (and cheaper) product could bring much more return on their development investment dollar.

By Mike Schell's own admission, C-D has goiven NO thought to return on their non-recurring engineering cost! What kind of company is that? Certainly not one I would want to buy stock in. It would appear C-D's agenda is not one many of us can understand. IMHO, C-D is really the first to market with a device that many. many videographers would LOVE to have. Unfortunately, their pricing philosophy is out of line with the majority of the market. Considering the potential for an affordable solid state, direct to edit device, C-D doesn't seem, to me anyway, be doing much for most small videographers.

I, for one, am sick to death of high priced technology that becomes obsolete within 6 months. How many businesses can afford $5K outlays that have a halflife of 6 months?

How much is that doggie in the window?

Bill clearly this device isn't for you then. It wasn't designed for you either. This is a SDI device to be used by those who want higher quality. Why do you think higher quality shouldn't have a higher price tag? When do any of us get anything for nothing? This product is aimed at a niche market because like Chris said it is usually only a niche market that "needs" this sort of quality.

I think Mike is doing a great job because he cares. He not only cares about quality but about us as well. That is why he is here answering a lot of our questions. Mike has a dream for a product that many of us have wanted for a very long time. He isn't a huge company and to be honest I'm glad about that. When is the last time you saw a large company directly ask for feedback on a product months before it shipped? How often do you see companies add in new features because the potential users asked for them on a forum?

How is this any different then RED who many at first thought they were a bunch of overpriced dreamers but now can't keep up with building the cameras they are selling.

I say let this product get finished instead of having them add new features all the time to the point where it never gets finished. I have been working on FX and video software for over two years and it never gets done because I keep adding things and changing them. Let Mike finish this product and then see what happens. Maybe later on they will make a different product that will be cheaper for firewire and HDV users. After all it could be cheaper because it doesn't have as much of the needed components. The SDI and SONY mpeg2 codec are my guess as to why this certain device costs a lot of money. Good mpeg2 encoders that can do 4:2:2 profile high level encoding are not cheap. SDI isn't exactly cheap either. A simple HDV device shouldn't even need a encoder built in. The camera does the encoding and the firewire just sends off the stream to the recording device. Unlike a Firestore this device has to have it's own encoder built in and the ability to take a SDI feed and encode it not only as studio quality mpeg2 but wrap it into MXF which isn't exactly a cheap standard either.

If somebody really needs 4:2:2 low compression quality a $5,000.00 device sure beats having to go out and buy a $35,000.00 camera.

I love these small companies like Convergent Design, Red and Letus because they really shake up the industry and bring people's idea for great products into reality.

Thomas...

I couldn't agree with you more, with one exception. For anyone to believe that a small Indie like myself isn't interested in quality, is a drastic misconception. The level of quality I produce is directly proportional to the quality of the product I can afford. I'm constrained by the balance sheet for my business. If I think this device would pay for itself in short order, I'd run right out and get one.

I'm not an internet troll. My intention isn't to drag a company or their product down because it's a fun thing to do. But, I do feel it's necessary to exert some pressure on manufacturers, big or small, to keep their prices as low as possible, and to consider the useful lifetime of things they put a high pricetag on. Obviously, in the free enterprise system, caveat emptor.