Hi,
Sorry if this seems convoluted. I have no doubt it IS convoluted, but please bear with me. I'm still trying to figure out a workflow that will allow me to shoot 35Mb/s with the EX1 and edit in Avid Xpress Pro. I know I can't do it in the obvious way at this time, but, until Avid updates (whenever that will be) would this work:

- I shoot 35Mb/s
- import proxy files only into Avid, and edit the project
- export the project from AXP to FCP (using Automatic Duck)
- “rez up” from proxy to 35Mb/s in FCP...

I'm only vaguely aware of what a proxy file is, and how it works, so my whole house-of-cards might collapse, depending... Can someone set me straight on this?
thanks,
Malcolm

EX1 doesn't use proxy files! XDCAM and XDCAM HD does but not XDCAM EX.

You can use SP 1440x1080i (25Mbit) in Avid using Sony Clip Browser to convert to .mxf that Avid can import or use HQ 1920x1080 (both p and i) if you convert them to DNxHD using ffmpeg.

(720p support in ffmpeg is in svn)

Tips on how to http://ex.bolanski.com

Or why not edit in Final Cut from the beginning? I think it can handle all EX1 formats from version 6.0.2 and using the Sony Transfer Plugin.

Or why not edit in Final Cut from the beginning? I think it can handle all EX1 formats from version 6.0.2 and using the Sony Transfer Plugin.

Hi Andreas,
I know I should just face up to it, and learn FCP, but... I'm just so used to Avid! I'm also pretty sure it would take me a month or so to get up to speed on FCP, and I don't have the time, right now anyway.
I should try, though, I know.
Anyway, thanks for your advice. Strange, though, because I'm sure a Sony guy who I saw the other day, who was talking about the EX1, was talking about proxy files. I must have mininterpreted him... he was probably talking about some other cameras in the Sony line-up.
Cheers,
Malcolm

I was an Avid user from 1990 to 2001. It took me maybe 3 days to get FCP figured out. While I still see advantages for big shops having Avids, FCP is the small shop's dream. Completely scalable from DV to Film/Red/HDCAM so it can grow with your business. It's exactly because FCP is what it is I can move to XDCAM EX so easily. Apple had the update, along with Sony, timed to the release of the camera. Heck, I've been able to test parts of my workflow with files people have uploaded here while I wait for my camera.

BTW there's a great book called something like "Final Cut Pro for Avid Editors" which focuses on the specifics of making that move.

EX1 and FCP 6.0.2 seem to be happy partners out of the box.

Malcolm
I second that.

If you use FCP 5 and above it has the same programmable keyboard setup as an Avid so you can program almost all your fave Avid keystrokes into FCP and switch with impunity.

The only major exceptions, dictated by the OS, mainly is tha apple-m for magnify in Avid puts the window away in FCP, no way to reprogram that and so a constant thorn in my side every day, since I rely on the apple-m command a lot, and the way you select clips - in Avid you have to mark in-out but in FCP you just click the clip.

There's a couple more gotchas - The Avid PC version always has F1 go to help, not reprogrammable, and a few more I don't encounter every day.

Plus you have to do your own bin (folder), media and project management by hand in FCP (not done for you in FCP - so you can crack open the capture folder and see a ton of digitized files called "Untitled-nn" if you're not very careful and conscientious. Actually it's harder to go Avid to FCP than the other way around as far as bin, project and media management are concerned.

Apart from that, the conversion to FCP should take you a long weekend of patient experiments and many undos. There's a book specifically out called FCP editing for Avid editors, worthwhile at first.

FWIW we operate Avids and FCPs (two of each) side by side, every day, and use whichever is the better (quicker, more versatile, better plugins) for each individual job.

Usually more GFX and looks = FCP, and more than one editor required = Avid, with the rest falling in between based on bay availability and operator preference.

Oh, I also have Avids on both Macs and PCs, depending on operator preference, since a lot of younger people tend curiously to prefer Adobe products on a PC lately, and a lot of the software we use for motion capture, pre-viz etc, only operates on a PC.

So, as in this instance, we'll keep an entire project in the PC or in the Mac chain to simplify matters, although with our regular network and Mac-Drive on the PCs, every computer can read every other's drives and all the standalone drives as well, no matter what they're formatted in. Photoshop, AE, graphics and audio files seem to be worked on and tossed between PC and Mac systems with abandon. We tend to go to DVD on Mac only, through DVD Studio Pro, although that will probably change when our HD DVD systems are installed. Probably then we'll go Vegas or similar, since we're mainly Sony in acquisition and I have my eye on an EX1 too...

HTH
JM2c, of course. YMMV.
Cheers
Chris

Hi Andreas,

I too am looking for more extensibility from Avid than currently offered @ HDV25 rez, and saw your site & link to ffmpeg.

So I downloaded it -- file name is fmpeg.rev11143.7z -- but it of course will not open on a windows desktop. Do I need to change the extension? Many thanks.

Keith

Proxy files can be made from the NLE, not just the camera. Low res files can be used for editing and matched-up with hi-res for your "finishing."

To do this between systems is likely to have issues to work through, and you're definitely gonna want to have timecode to work with, but it should be do-able. (That said, I've never worked with Express, so I don't know how it is hobbled compared to the full-blown Avid systems.)

Chris and Craig... thank you for your thoughtful, and thorough, advice. I know I have to take it, too... at some point. Given that I've been an Apple-user since the Mac SE (that had, unless I'm wrong, a 1MB hard drive - - is that even possible? How could engineers have made a hard drive that small!!??), it's ridiculous that I haven't switched long ago. I never did, though, and now here I am. I will google the book you both referred to, and buy it. I only wish I had a 20-year-old brain, that could inhale this kind of stuff. I struggle with every technical detail, which is why, now that I'm comfortable with editing with Avid, it's going to be a challenge learning something else. I will try, though. It's not too early for New Year's Resolutions, is it?
Cheers,
Malcolm

Joseph, thanks for weighing in. I'll send a question about this to the Sony rep I met the other day... he's the guy who got me thinking about proxy files. I'll post back if I hear anything.
Cheers, Malcolm

Malcolm, I'm no youngster. I started in video professionally around 1980. The first NLE I edited on was a CMX6000. This old dog had no problem picking up FCP. In fact FCP is less "locked in" to a mode of editing than Avid so it's easy to quickly develop a method that works for you.

Hi Craig,
Well, I just ordered the Avid-to-FCP book. I'll let you know how it goes (doesn't arrive until Christmas, I guess because I live in Canada).
In the meantime, I'll keep looking for answers about how the EX1 and AXP might be able to get along...
thanks again for the advice,
Malcolm

Although I am happy that you are all so pleased with FCP and I too have some thoughts on how Avid are doing things I find it hard to draw the conclusion to abandon the Avid-ship just because thay have not yet released an update to support the EX1 yet. It has only been three weeks since the first cameras where shipped and there are only 300 cameras shipped in the whole world. Also, they have comitted to support the new file format.

/ola

Hi Ola,
Don't get me wrong. I love Avid. I just think I'd better get around to learning FCP too. Maybe it can tide me over until Avid makes good on its promise to update for the EX1. Or maybe I can use it (if I can export from AXP to FCP; I know of some Avid editors who use Automatic Duck to do this) to make the last few changes to a project... after all, you can monitor HD in FCP, but not Avid right? (not yet anyway).
Cheers,
Malcolm

My own sense is that Avid, with its announcement that they wont be at the next NAB, is focusing on the very highest end of the market (big facility needs) so their "lower" end products are not going to be a main focus. It seems to me they're ceding that market (small post and 1 person shops) to FCP, Adobe, Sony, etc. Basically I'm not sure how quick the updates will be if you don't have a Nitris on up.

My own sense is that Avid, with its announcement that they wont be at the next NAB, is focusing on the very highest end of the market (big facility needs) so their "lower" end products are not going to be a main focus. It seems to me they're ceding that market (small post and 1 person shops) to FCP, Adobe, Sony, etc. Basically I'm not sure how quick the updates will be if you don't have a Nitris on up.

That's an interesting conclusion. I would very much like to hear what you are basing it on. Why couldn't it be just the other way around? Just curious...

My own sense is that Avid, with its announcement that they wont be at the next NAB, is focusing on the very highest end of the market (big facility needs) so their "lower" end products are not going to be a main focus. It seems to me they're ceding that market (small post and 1 person shops) to FCP, Adobe, Sony, etc. Basically I'm not sure how quick the updates will be if you don't have a Nitris on up.

I hope it would be the other way around. Avid has been loosing ground to FCP, Vegas, etc. This is the market that is growing tremendously, and thus is the area where they can make or loose the most money. Avid needs an affordable product like Xpress Pro with features exceeding the expectations of the customer, without requiring an expensive and "unaffordable" annual support contract. With this, they need to improve the turnaround time to support new cameras and formats.

Don't quote me on this as I've had it third hand at best, but apparently the 'big" clients are actually 'bigger' than mere entertainment corporations, so us mere TV professionals are also being left at the altar.

The Avid systems that really did work (Meridians, version 12s, etc on the Mac, OS 9 and OSX and Unity systems) are not being supported or continued beyond the near future. This is probably to do with the Avid vs. Apple fight and Avid's migration away from the Macs (and of course, Apple's introduction of FCP in the first place).

The new Avid MC Soft 2.7 series leaves quite a bit to be desired (read about it on the Avid forums) and the response time and quality of tech support is also apparently on the wane. I'm using 2.7.2 to 2.7.7 here at work (we have a dozen Avids here) and wish for the golden olden days...

Maybe it's just that time of the year.

Actually, Moore's Law says it's about time for Mr. Oakley or similar to make a RedEdit system that will blow everybody else out of the water.

In any event, just like a photographer needs to know how to use a camera from an 8x10 plate camera to the latest pocket digital camera, I feel that it's high time the rest of the industry follows suit. And that means us.

These edit systems are becoming so cheap now, and the memory too (I just saw a standalone 1.5TB HDD for under $300 at my local electronics store) that there's really no excuse for not at least being on nodding terms with Avid, FCP, Vegas, PPro, iMovieHD, and anything else that may be around.

After all, they all do pretty much the same thing. And everything today is equally high tech (well, at least, compared to yesterday).

Adapt -- or cut sprockets! (which I totally enjoy too, BTW).

Cheers
Chris

Robert - I do know that there's a direction that most people say makes more money - which is to supply lower cost product to more people - but that's not necessarily the most profitable for every company.

The retail market is very labor intensive. More people and more units sold means more people to upkeep those products. Which means more overhead.

So there comes a time when some companies say "quality, not quantity". Fewer products. Less staff concentrating on fewer clients who pay more for higher quality.

Avid's never really been in the dime store business.

Chris Leong has really explained it well. I've been on other forums where Avid's announcement about NAB and have seen some serious analysis about where they're heading. I believe at least one Avid rep was involved in those discussions.

Basically Avid is not going to try to compete against FCP. They're really looking to be a high end company where the sales are direct and the dollars are huge and the target market is small in number (but very big budget).

Please do continue to use Avids if you find their tools useful. Many people like Avid's media management over FCP for example. Me too. I was an Avid editor for over 10 years. I just don't think the support for their "basic" NLEs will be their focus though as time goes on. It's just not their big money maker and the cost benefit for their development resources isn't there for them.

There are plenty of good NLEs to choose from now. FCP is probably now about the most dominant (Apple I believe claims this) but Adobe is now cross platform (back on the Mac) once again. You know Vegas is going to be compatible with any direction Sony cameras head in (but wonder about things like P2 if you need that support). There's some other good systems to choose from too.

In general when you think of your NLE choices such things enter into decisions such as whether you're going to be a "closed" or "open" shop as well as what your best/ideal workflow is.

If the EX1 and/or XDCAM is going to be part of your "bread and butter" you may not want to wait months for compatibility and even then that may not be "complete" based on your system. Keep that in mind when making your decisions. For me, time is money and faster workflow is better than dealing with workaround codec conversions that take time, etc.

This is bad news for me, as one of my main clients and really a "target" client for the Ex-1 (because they do everything in 1080) cuts on an Avid.

Leonard
Don't despair. What I was really saying is that if you have a handle on all the going programs, then it's fairly easy to punt media from one platform or NLE to another without sacrificing quality along the way.
Just ingest Vegas, convert to a solid in-house mezzanine format, then translate into Avid friendly media for editing there.
Sure, there are more steps, but you're going to have to archive in any event, and that means making copies of original media.
So make them in different formats so you don't have all your eggs in one digital codec basket, is all.
And prep your media for Avid ingest, if your client wants that, in the meantime.
I think it's only a matter of time before someone like Squared 5 comes up with an XDCam EX plug in for their MPEG Streamclip do-everything converter program. After that, all of this discussion will be moot.
Don't forget, the camera only came out a week or two ago!
Cheers
Chris

Chris, I think it's only a matter of time before someone like Squared 5 comes up with an XDCam EX plug in for their MPEG Streamclip do-everything converter program. After that, all of this discussion will be moot.Chris
Well, did just that and asked Squared5 about a possibility to convert EX1 files with MPEGStreamClip "into anything", a long time ago. But have had no response to my request so far. Perhaps some of you should contact him as well so that he gets an idea, how badly such a workflow is needed. Just in case, you don't have his URL at hand: www.squared5.com

... it's fairly easy to punt media from one platform or NLE to another without sacrificing quality along the way.
Just ingest Vegas, convert to a solid in-house mezzanine format, then translate into Avid friendly media for editing there
Chris

Hi Chris,
this intrigues me... would you mind elaborating? Are you saying I could ingest via Vegas onto my Mac hd, and then convert to MXF (and then import into Avid Xpress Pro)?
If this is the case, is Vegas the only app that allows for this conversion, or would FCP (which I own, but don't yet know how to use) also allow me to ingest and convert EX1 files?
I don't mind the extra step(s) in the short term, at least.
Cheers,
Malcolm

Hi Andreas,

I too am looking for more extensibility from Avid than currently offered @ HDV25 rez, and saw your site & link to ffmpeg.

So I downloaded it -- file name is fmpeg.rev11143.7z -- but it of course will not open on a windows desktop. Do I need to change the extension? Many thanks.

Keith

Its zipped using something called 7zip hence the extension. You need 7zip to unzip it. its open source so its free.

http://www.7-zip.org/

Hi Andreas,
I know I should just face up to it, and learn FCP, but... I'm just so used to Avid!

...he was probably talking about some other cameras in the Sony line-up.
Cheers,
Malcolm

If you follow my tips you don't need to learn FCP. And yes he was talking about XDCAM or XDCAM HD that uses proxy files.

Since you seem to have a non intel mac you could probably not use the Sony Clip Browser, but you could probably use ffmpeg to convert Ex1.mp4 to Avid DNxHD.mov files. You have to find ffmpeg for OSX by your self. Try google ffmpeg osx.

There is something called ffmpegX that maybe could be used since its a OSX Gui for ffmpeg.

http://www.ffmpegx.com/

You have to try for yourself, the latest ffmpeg do have DnxHD support, but if ffmpegX doesn't use the latest version you have to dig deeper and maybe compile it from source. That on the other hand is not a thing I will go into.

If you follow my tips you don't need to learn FCP// Since you seem to have a non intel mac you could probably not use the Sony Clip Browser//
There is something called ffmpegX that maybe could be used since its a OSX Gui for ffmpeg/... the latest ffmpeg do have DnxHD support, but if ffmpegX doesn't use the latest version you have to dig deeper and maybe compile it from source. That on the other hand is not a thing I will go into.

Hi Andreas,
Thank you for your patience. I'd appreciate just a little more advice - -
ffmpegX converts to DivX, AVI XviD, H.264 MP4, MOV, DV, 3GP, Sony PSP, MP2, MP3, AAC, AC3, MPEG-1, MPEG-2, VCD, CVD, SVCD, KVCD, KSVCD, DVD, KDVD and MPEG-TS... but not DnxHD.

So... this means it won't work for me, right? (I just know that Avid Xpress Pro likes .mxf files... not sure what DnxHD is).

Now, one thing I didn't mention. I don't have an Intel Mac now, but next month I'm getting a Mac Pro, which is Intel. Does this change the equation for me?
This means I'd be able to use the Sony clip browser... but this still wouldn't help me get 35Mb/s files into Avid Xpress Pro, would it?

Thanks so much,
Malcolm

DNxHD is .mov files. Quicktime as container and DNxHD as codec.

A Mac Pro won't get 35Mbit into Avid using Sony Clip Browser but at least 25Mbit for starters.

Using ffmpeg you should be able to use my simple scripts in a Terminal. I don't know for sure how to install ffmpeg in osx but since I'm writing this on a Macbook Pro in Linux I can always reinstall Osx and try it out for you. Maybe I'll get to it before your new machine arrives.

Or you can google for ffmpeg and osx I know I used to have it on my Tiger installation.

This is a ffmpeg on osx install howto.

http://stephenjungels.com/jungels.net/articles/ffmpeg-howto.html