It has been a mystery to me how it's possible that both HD delivery formats lacking explicit 25p format, Sony is still pushing it with their cameras, and recently even adding the native 25p (in the Z7E). On my V1E, I've been shooting progressive almost exclusively, and kept wondering on the best delivery method.

I have some good news on this. It turns out that even though BD specs do not list 25p, there is no problem at all authoring a BD disk with 25fps progressive stuff on it, and it plays OK as well!

I have only today tried it out on my new Sony Vaio laptop, which comes with a BD burner and a little authoring application, Click to DVD-BD. I was able to burn a nice disk (with menu), using a raw m2t clip from my V1E, shot in 1080/25PsF. The m2ts file created in the STREAM folder is seen by Vegas as 25fps interlaced, but plays just like the progressive original clip.

What's even better, there is no re-encoding whatsover involved!

I am waiting now for the EX1 to which my current V1E will be the B camera, so the natural question arises: will the HQ, native 25p also be possible to burn on a BD disk - which isn't obvious at all, as it's not 50i-compatible.

I have checked this even before the EX1 arrived, and have good news, as well. No problem with "true" 25p (i.e. not PsF), either - have just rendered a full length MPG2 (1080/25p, 30 Mbps VBR, DD 5.1 audio) in Vegas, and authored a BluDisk using this smart little app (Click to DVD-BD); coming from Sony it even recognizes markers from Vegas timeline, so chapter points are conveyed automatically. The BD has a full-featured menu and plays back perfectly...

Looks like it will be possible to successfuly mix 25PsF from my V1E with the HQ native 25p from the EX1 when it comes, and deliver on BD without transcoding to 24p...Well, at least the fielding should not pose a problem!

What player are you using that will play your dvd-bd? I have been having a hard time finding players that will play my bluray dvds. Haven't found a sony bluray play that will work. It does work on the samsungs I have tried.

Thanks

What player are you using that will play your dvd-bd? I have been having a hard time finding players that will play my bluray dvds. Haven't found a sony bluray play that will work. It does work on the samsungs I have tried.

Thanks

That has been THE problem with BD. Each player has its restrictions on what can be played. Sometimes firmware adds to the list -- sometimes it removes capabilities. The PS3 is the one that seems to play everything.

Personally, I feel if they were going to add anything to the BD spec it should be 30p, since HD-DVD supports it. And there is an HD-DVD disc on the market authored this way.

I would be more likely to shoot 30p on the V1U instead of 60i if I knew I could deliver it that way.

I agree with Steven Mullen on the PS3 also, it's an excellent BDP in my opinion.

For both burning and playback, I'm using the BD writer that comes with my new Sony Vaio laptop. You're right - I must try it out in some others.

For both burning and playback, I'm using the BD writer that comes with my new Sony Vaio laptop. You're right - I must try it out in some others.

the vaio burnt blue rays that i have made from 1080i camcorder captured footage play fine on my ps3.

the vaio burnt blue rays that i have made from 1080i camcorder captured footage play fine on my ps3.

Yeah, the PC/Mac internal drives and the PS3 is one thing, and all those stand-alone BD players out there is another... I am going to give my BD a test drive these days - will keep you posted.

Piotr, I use the same cam (V1E) and also shoot mostly in it's 25P mode.

After editing in Edius in a 25P project setting I athored it in Roxio DVDit Pro with menus and burned it to a BD disk that plays just great in my PS3.

I was very curious to know what happens if I use the player controls to single step through the video, eg I have some golf practice footage and this works just great to see each frame either forwards or backwards with each frame looking as sharp and clear as a decent still photo since I used 1/200th sec shutter speed for this. However what interests me more is that it takes TWO pushes of the remote control step button to move a frame unlike another chapter which ihas interlaced footage where stepping is just a single push, not two pushes if you see what I mean.

In short I am endevouring to find the best way to get progressive footage from my V1E onto Blue Ray disks that work properly and I don't think I am quite there yet since it's plain I am using an interlaced setup rather than progessive though the prog footage still works, as you have found. Some more experimenting seems neccessary.

What puzzles me about your Sony software is that somehow it can put unconverted raw transport stream from your camera straight onto BD? How is this when I need to pre-process my footage into proper BD compliant files for it not to be automatically re-encoded by Roxio, thus suffering Roxio's conversion process rather than Procoders's MAstering Quality if I should leave out this important step.

Could it be that the Sony software is making a very propriatory form of BD that is only playable on your PC?

Whoops, I have read your initial post more closely and see it is in fact compliant files you are putting on BD.

Could it be that the Sony software is making a very propriatory form of BD that is only playable on your PC?

Hi Claire,

In fact, I've yet to see my BDs playing back from a regular, stand-alone BD player connected to a PAL HDTV rather than from a PC drive and on a PC LCD screen, which by the very defition is 60 Hz refresh rate...

The same applies to your playback from PS3, which is more like a PC than a stand-alone player - have you tried your BDs on another player?

I'm very interested to know current HD-DVD and BR player prices as we're now in the big selling season in the US. Was at Costco 2 days ago (a big-box membership retailer).

HD-DVD set-top box - $200 US with 7 free movies.
BR-DVD - $279 with same.

The free movies deal is that you get three or four in the box, then choose the remainder from a list of 25 or so and receive later.

Don't know what's happening in Europe with pricing, but it looks like in the US we're now down to the prices that consumers and business' can easily afford, probably see some market acceptance over the next 18 months, IMO.

Yeah, the PC/Mac internal drives and the PS3 is one thing, and all those stand-alone BD players out there is another... I am going to give my BD a test drive these days - will keep you posted.

yes at present i think few if any bd players [exept ps3s]play pc burnt bds keep me posted.

Hi Claire,

In fact, I've yet to see my BDs playing back from a regular, stand-alone BD player connected to a PAL HDTV rather than from a PC drive and on a PC LCD screen, which by the very defition is 60 Hz refresh rate...

The same applies to your playback from PS3, which is more like a PC than a stand-alone player - have you tried your BDs on another player?

Not yet, the shops are too full of customers at this time of year to put up with me and my disk, but I know already it will be unlikely to work other than with a PS3 as someone here with a Sony laptop had a demo in a Sony Centre and the BD they made would not work when the staff tried the disk in the Sony players, must have embarrassed them I think.

I take your point that the PS3 is yet another computer though I believe it does connect to my HDTV at 50 Hz. What concerns me is the 25PsF video from my V1E correctly displayed, it looks it, except for this single stepping business where two pushes on the button are needed to see a different image as opposed to one for 50i. Seems with 50i stuff stepping moves between fields and with 50PsF it moves between "duplicate frames".

Could you check this with your disk on your Sony Laptop's HD player software? My thinking is that with this quirk that there is something not quite right, maybe I should be converting the footage to 24P and making a 24P BD, which I don't want to have to do, like you! But just not sure right now.

Claire, just like you, I'm not even trying to visit a Sony Center just before Christmas :) I'll keep you posted right after the holidays.

As to connecting to external display: I do have a full HD monitor, but this one is also 60 Hz of course - other than that, I own a 42" plasma TV, but SD only (planning to upgrade soon, certainly if my BD experiments are successful). Anyway, I connected the Vaio to it via HDMI, and - while downscaled to SD - the image from the BD is gorgeous. The plasma is of course 50 Hz (and even 100 Hz) capable, as it's a PAL model - but there really is no way to tell for 100% whether or not it displays at 50 Hz or 60 Hz (which it's also compatible with). However, judging from the lack of any motion artefacts or flicker, it might be actually displaying at 100 Hz.

BTW, in the BD player on the Vaio there is a control named "PAL TrueSpeed"; when playing back on the internal LCD it's unaccessible (dimmed), but with another display attached with HDMI I can check it off and on. Alas, no visible difference.

As to the frame-by-frame stepping - no, it's sufficient to press it once here, with both the 24p and 25p BDs I burned. But this is a software player, so I'm not sure whether this proves anything.

we should find out[from sony] why vaio burnt blue ray discs may only play on pcs and ps3s,i see little point as a long term storage ,just temporary play maybe.

we should find out[from sony] why vaio burnt blue ray discs may only play on pcs and ps3s,i see little point as a long term storage ,just temporary play maybe.

I think this is an overstatement, Chris. The "Click to DVD-BD" utility that comes with the Vaio (if equipped with a BD writer) can burn 3 types of disks:

-regular DVD
-BDMV
-HD

The HD disk (not to be confused with HD DVD) is sth proprietary to Sony, and it's said in the documentation it only plays on the Vaio. The BDMV on the other hand is the general format, and if it doesn't play on some stand-alone players, you can't blame Sony for this. As an example I can tell you that one of the newer Pioneer players does not even have BD-R (not to mention BD-RE) in its specs, and when I asked Pioneer support they told me they cannot gurantee a user-made BD-R disk will be recognized. And this is a high-end model, with 24p DirectCinema output etc.

But of course I agree the marketing of HD delievery technologies is very confusing, and a more technically prepared /demanding user lacks the first-hand information on what can /cannot be done, and why.

I think this is an overstatement, Chris. The "Click to DVD-BD" utility that comes with the Vaio (if equipped with a BD writer) can burn 3 types of disks:

-regular DVD
-BDMV
-HD

The HD disk (not to be confused with HD DVD) is sth proprietary to Sony, and it's said in the documentation it only plays on the Vaio. The BDMV on the other hand is the general format, and if it doesn't play on some stand-alone players, you can't blame Sony for this. As an example I can tell you that one of the newer Pioneer players does not even have BD-R (not to mention BD-RE) in its specs, and when I asked Pioneer support they told me they cannot gurantee a user-made BD-R disk will be recognized. And this is a high-end model, with 24p DirectCinema output etc.

i am a bit confused piotr why does sony make vaio blue ray burning pcs if the discs only play on pcs,i believe blue ray cams discs will not play on standaone players either,as a recording format i am not optimistic.

...,as a recording format i am not optimistic.

While I'm sure BD will eventually win -- it really seems Sony TODAY sees BD as two devices: big data discs for PC and a means of distributing Hollywood movies.

Now Toshiba isn't that much better, but because their spec includes red-laser burned HD content and they are one company and they support their own spec -- it is safer IMHO to wait for BD to be ready and buy a cheap HD DVD player now. (They upconvert VERY well.)

Alas indeed, there's every incentive for mainstream stand-alone players to be purposely incompatible with self-made BD-R or BD-RE, and keep these locked in the PC realm. Sony has a movie production business to care for and protect against 'backup copies', so why rush history.

OK - so I have finally bought a HDTV - the 50" Panasonic plasma. It's capable of both 50 Hz (as it's a PAL Viera model), and 100 Hz where each frame is displayed twice, to avoid flicker.

You can imagine how thrilled I was when first connecting and configuring it with my desktop's regular, X1600XT ATI card. The EDID info in Catalyst software offered the 100Hz refresh; so far so good...

Not having a BD player other than the one in my Vaio laptop (accessible through the draft N wi-fi from my desktop at some 130 Mbps), I inserted the first BD disk burnt from Vegas timeline and authored with Ulead MF HD to the Vaio drive. In another room (being my "studio" with the 50" HDTV hung above the 24" LCD. PC monitor), I launched Nero Showtime, navigated to the remote Vaio's BD drive, and clicked "Play"...
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Gosh, I have never saw a video as good as what I saw, ever in my whole life!
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Stunning resolution. Deep blacks, true colours. Motion? Even though it was a wedding party, shot in 1080/25p with 1/25th shutter - just natural!

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So yes, by all means, it can be done. And frankly, while watching the film I shot last year with the V1E, I was thinking how anything from my EX1 could be better - so good it was!