I am looking for some advice, I am shooting a friend playing live at a couple of events next week and have never done any music event shooting.
Is it best to shoot the event and record audio separately and sync later or try and get an audio stream into the XLR jack?
I am going to use my A1 but also have a Sony HC1 for handheld close ups etc. Do you think I will have issues colour matching the two cameras post?

Any advice would be great,

thanks

Jon

About sound:
It depends on your task and on music your friend is playing. Obviously, the quality MAY be better if you will take sound from mixer to another device, but later you have to synchronize it. Sometimes, if you need to "Live effect" in is better to get sound from microphone in the room.

About video:
I do not think this will be a problem to match color (I suppose it will not be a huge rock-n-roll show with a lot of lights and fire :) ). But may be it would be better to match color beforehand: look for HC1-like preset on the internet or try to do it yourself if you have a vectorscope (f.e. Canon Console or there is a freeware vectorscope for AviSynth, but in is much less handy)

for the sound, go off the board. you can bring a digital sound recorder or another cam that would plug straight in.

to synch multi cams, i bring a camera flash and set it off a few times through out the set. it's one frame and really easy to spot.

color correction is really all about your skill and software.

’ll throw in my 2 Cents given that I have only shot one live music event, (but have had decades of audio recording experience). Also I use Avid in newbie mode, with no clue about the other editors.

I was surprised how easy it was to 1) sync two cameras (note Eric’s tip about a flash), 2) Color match the cameras, and 3) import and sync audio.

Running at zero experience level, I recorded 3 stereo tracks. The first was a Crown PZM stereo imaging mike plugged directly into the A1 (note room ambient sound at a good location). The second was the direct mixing board output into an Apogee MiniME and then digitally into an MAudio MicroTrak. The third was a Rode Stereo Video Mike on a Canon HV20 roaming around the stage getting close ups.

Results: The sound from the board was very clean, but it was not always well mixed and lacked the sense of “being there” i.e. audience reactions. The HV20 sound quality from the Rode mike was good, but again the balance was off… favoring whatever amplifier it was closer to at the time. The A1 sound was the winner, giving a well balance sense of being in the room with crisp detail in the music.

Suggest that you simply get the best microphones you can and then place them in the room where your ears think the sound is good (and people won’t get in the way).

My next opportunity to shoot live music will come up in a few months, so I am planning the following: Record the A1 with the onboard mic, primarily as a sync reference. I will set up two apogee miniMe/ microtrak combinations recording stereo pairs (at 24/ 96K) from the Crown PZM and also from a pair of widely separated condenser mic’s. In post, will convert to 16bit/ 48K and mix the best stereo image, and also try my first shot at 5.1 mixing.

The most important thing I learned from the first experience was that no matter how good the sound is, it is easy to screw it up in the process of making a DVD. Apparently DVD sound can be written on the disk 3 ways, 1) as PCM (an uncompressed wave file), 2) a compressed mpg, or 3) a compressed Dolby AC3. Unfortunately, the mpg option is not adopted in the official DVD spec, and is not supported on some players. Unaware, I was outputting video with mpg to author with Ulead MF6, which was then transcoding mpg to ac3… ouch. Currently I decided to honor the concept of “music” video by using only uncompressed wav audio on the disk (PCM option). It takes more space, but there is a noticeable improvement in sound quality.

Good Luck

Thanks, loads of good stuff there. The flash idea for sync is great I've still got to investigate the locations etc. But thanks heaps. I'll keep you updated.

Jon

One thing to watch out for if you get a direct board feed, without room mics: the mix can be off, depending on the type of music. If a band has big guitar amps, those are probably relatively low in the mains (because they can be heard directly from the amp, unlike vocals which are only heard from the mains speakers). When going direct from the board with a loud rock band, you might end up with loud vocals and weak guitars. Sometimes it's easier and better to use stereo mics in the room.

FWIW,
Back in the summer, I was asked by a friend of mine to record his entry in a Country song contest - at an outdoor venue. Here's the result: http://web.mac.com/rossdjones/Video/GregT.html
I couldn't get access to the sound board and we had to sit in the bleachers about 100ft away. Rather than set up external mics, I decided to just record with the on-board mics.. Sounds a little thin, but a pretty fair representation of what the PA sounded like 100ft away..
Rgds, Ross.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Well I did my shoot last week and the results were mixed. The first venue she was stuck in a corner no lighting, crap sound, people knocking glasses etc. I had to bump up the gain and to be honest would not use any of the footage as it's boring and noisy (both audio and video).
Second venue, better lighting (still average though), better sound. I tried to pull the audio from the board but could not get the XLR input to work. I set it to XLR on the menu, used Chan 1 and I kn ow that the lead was live. I need to check this out... has anyone else had probs? Ended up using built in mic (which I was actually surprised at the quality)
One area where I did mess up was that I was going to take my little Sony HC1 as a second camera... took on first shoot and never used it, didn't bother for second shoot. Big mistake as I was messing around doing a few 'arty' shots but now have nothing to cut into the footage... oops! I have tried to cut other sections into it but you can tell that the sounds don't match the video.
I'll go down to the venue and shoot some crowd reaction etc next week as cutaway shots.

All good lessons though.

Jon

If anyone can give me advice on shooting live music I would really appreciate that.

Next week I am filming a singer/songwriter. She plays guitar.

The film will last for the duration of one song. During the film you find out more about the performer.

I want to record her in her bedroom, where she writes her songs, and in a studio/performance space.

I haven't filmed music for real before.

I have only experimented by recording my nephew.

I used two DPA 4061 mics. These are tiny. Often used as lapel mics but have many other applications.

I mounted one on the guitar and the other on my nephew's T shirt.

The result wasn't a disaster but there were two problems:
1 the mic on the guitar picked up the bass strings at the expense of the others because it was closest to the bass strings.
2 there was not enough separation between voice mic and guitar mic so it was not possible to mix them.

Should I forget about using these mics for this job and go for something else. If so what?

I have a really good hire place nearby with a huge range of mics so I can probably get hold of anything that is suggested.

Would very much appreciate advice based on experience.

Thanks.

My main question for live music is: 24f or 60i?

I think I'll be okay on the sound. I'll take a L & R feed from the mixing board, but I can't make up my mind for 24 or 60. I'll be using an XL2 for the wide shot, and XH-A1 for the medium/closeups. Final destination for footage is a DVD.

Thanks

JR

professional sound jockey? No? - forget the sound board. Too much aggravation - way too many things to go wrong.

why not use the cams the other way round? The A1 is higher rez - better for wide shots. The XL2 maintains maximum aperture thru more of the zoom range - better for close-ups in low light.

I used two DPA 4061 mics. These are tiny. Often used as lapel mics but have many other applications.

I mounted one on the guitar and the other on my nephew's T shirt.

The result wasn't a disaster but there were two problems:
1 the mic on the guitar picked up the bass strings at the expense of the others because it was closest to the bass strings.
2 there was not enough separation between voice mic and guitar mic so it was not possible to mix them.

Should I forget about using these mics for this job and go for something else. If so what?

Try the following:
-one vocal mike on a stand very close to the mouth. Something like the shure 58A should work fine.
-one cardioid condenser mike on the guitar.


Separation will always be a problem. To improve things, try a non-reflecting room and turn the cardioid guitar mike so that its rear faces the mouth of the speaker (it does not need to face the guitar). If you really want separation, use a pickup on the guitar. AKG has a system which you stick on the guitar, it is supposed to be wonderful, but I have not used it (yet).

You can also put a normal (small) mike IN the guitar. Works well, but the sound is noticeably unnatural.



....or you could make it simple: if your room is not reflecting, put a cardioid condenser mike about one meter in front of the singer. It will record both the guitar and the singer and sound very natural.

For the audio portion of this: the topic comes up every now and then in the "All things audio" forum. Well worth heading over there and doing a search for live music or something like that.

- Martin

professional sound jockey? No? - forget the sound board. Too much aggravation - way too many things to go wrong.

why not use the cams the other way round? The A1 is higher rez - better for wide shots. The XL2 maintains maximum aperture thru more of the zoom range - better for close-ups in low light.

There is going to be a professional sound jockey there and the sound system belongs to the university so it's not a mickey mouse setup.

I'm still going to have a pair of shotguns collecting sound, I haven't decided whether to camera mount or not though. I'm going to test out during rehearsals and see how it sounds.

Yes, I've been going back and forth on which camera to use for the wide shot and which to use for the tighter shots. I planned on burning to BluRay eventually, even though the immediate destination is SD DVD. It might be a better idea to have the "whole" show on HDV.

JR

There is going to be a professional sound jockey there and the sound system belongs to the university so it's not a mickey mouse setup.
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JR

Unless I really know the sound engineer, no way would I use a tap of the mixer. One push of a button like the PFL/SOLO and while everything is okay for them, you are toast! Sure, if you have extra recording channels, by all means get a tap from them - but always have a "PLAN B." Just be aware you'll need to properly attenuate the signal and match the impedences coming out of the mixer that go into your mic inputs. You can buy the gear in pieces or get something like a Rolls DB25 Matchbox. And never, ever forget RULE NUMBER ONE:

ALWAYS monitor the audio throughout the recording session (and be ready to act fast).

Jonathan, if you've setup everything properly (no clipping but near peak), you shouldn't have any inherent camera audio recording problems in post. But if you're using a wide range of microphones or don't have things properly set, no recorder will resolve those problems.

Happy Trails, Michael

Many thanks Jerome and Martin for your advice.

I will try the Shure 58A for the vocals and a cardoid condenser for the guitar. May try a DPA 4061 inside the guitar too as I own one of these mics.

And I will take another look at the audio forum too. I must have missed the relevant postings.

I got to the venue early enough for soundcheck, and was able to get a proper line level from their board. I was happy how the sound turned out. I still had to dial it down a little, but no clipping and I can hear all the parts.

My b-camera had a shotgun on it and captured sound as well. I also am going to get a CD copy of the sound-board recording jusssst in case.

I might still use some of the B-camera audio to pipe in some crowd noise into the rear of the mix.

Thanks for all the tips in this thread.

JR

I'm glad it worked out - and it's great to have extra mics for rear ambience.

In my experience, using a feed from a sound mixer isn't always going to work. Although you can't go too far wrong for simple performance setups, such as a singer / guitarist, if you ever get into doing recordings with bigger bands, do remember that a pa mix is different to a recording mix - for the following reasons:

- for PA you usually want tight / close sound (because it's then going to go through speakers in the room)
- the mics will be close (to prevent too much room sound coming back into the mics and feeding back)
- if there are any really loud instruments (we have bagpipes in our celtic band) they are not going to be as loud in a PA mix because the thing's already contributing quite a lot of acoustic sound and doesn't need much help from the PA. Therefore you get a situation where loud instruments are unnaturally quiet when you listen to the PA feed afterwards, even though it sounded fine in the room, live.

So a PA mix and a recording mix is different. Probably better to do your own mix, or preferably (as others have suggested) use your own mics - and having several camcorders can be really useful extra mic channels provided you don't stop them during a take!

I just finished a shoot where we used a DAT machine (yes, I still have one of those knocking about) to do the audio, and left it running. This was just for a couple of harpists and a nyckelharpa in a formal concert. If you have mics in the right place you will capture a nice sound mix (provided it's not too noisy in the room) which is correctly balanced between performers (after all, acoustic performers adjust their playing to get the right balance between each other, so why not just make use of that).

I think it's a bit like lighting - keep it as simple as possible. The more mics you have, the more issues you start to run into. Although having lots of gear might make you look professional, it doesn't always end up helping.

Maybe I'll explain how I use the room mixer, since I have done that relatively often.

Using the mixer output to feed a 2-track recorder could work, but is going to be very tricky. The room mix is not designed to sound nice anywhere else than in the live room. The main problem is usually the overuse of reverb and bass: that sounds nice on the spot, less so at home. But if you only have a 2-track recorder, it may be your only choice. Fortunately many mixers can produce 2 different mixes, one for the room and one for you. Ask the sound man.

The best way is, of course, to directly record multitrack. It is more expensive, but Alesis makes HD recorders with 24 channels for a decent price, or you could use a firewire multitrack interface and a computer. Then, you remix in post. Most decent mixers have outputs for a multitrack recorder. Caveats: make sure you tap the signals BEFORE effects, and check microphone placement (but the sound engineer will usually not want to move them for you). In post, your main problem will be lack of separation (it's a live gig after all), so if any instrument has a pick up output try to record that.

Here are the results:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0xURrSVQJVs

It's not perfect, but I can't complain. I have to say, I'm happy without the video turned out. Shot 24F with my XH-A1 using the low-light preset from the XH-A1 forum. I rendered out to WMV before uploading to YouTube.

Eventually I'll edit in footage from the second camera...

JR

I would recommend getting rid of as many of the distracting light fixtures as you can. Crop the image from the edge of the stage to just beyond the top of the drummers head.

if you color grade the clip you will bump the gain - this will cause those globes to glow hot yellow. Yellow pulls at the eye more than any other color - so try desaturating the highlights. FCP has a built-in filter that does a great job

If this were a paying gig, I'd probably be more worried about color correction what-not. I'm probably not going to do a lot of post on this project. I did import the footage from the other camera. I had a Sennheiser strapped to that, and I added some of that sound into the mix and it added a lot of warmth and more bass. The board feed was a little "thin"

Either way, nobody's ever bothered to video these guys and I think fans will be happy even if it doesn't look/sound like Eagles: Hell Freezes Over or something.

Thanks again for the thread...

JR

oh no Jeremiah don't let the band hear you say "if this were a paying gig I would care more" -

amongst musicians that is what is known as a Bad Attitude: i.e. an attitude that helps ensure you never get any paying gigs.

The best way is, of course, to directly record multitrack. It is more expensive, but Alesis makes HD recorders with 24 channels for a decent price, or you could use a firewire multitrack interface and a computer. Then, you remix in post. Most decent mixers have outputs for a multitrack recorder. Caveats: make sure you tap the signals BEFORE effects, and check microphone placement (but the sound engineer will usually not want to move them for you).That's great advise. I have one of those Alesis HD24 recorders, hooked up to my own recording mixer, and I can't say enough good things about this setup. I always also record ambience mics to capture the atmosphere in the room, but I leave all my options open for getting the best mix in post!

- Martin

I should clarify - I don't mean you should pull out all the stops fro a free gig. I would not attend a sound check or take along multiple cameras and mics unless it was family or close friends. But I would want to do a professional job given the resources I had decided to commit.

- 1 minute of my time and 5 minutes of rendering I would be happy to throw in especially if it makes my work look better.

Man, I don't think Ralph meant anything bad by it. Just, you know, you're obviously still trying to learn, and you're asking questions and trying to figure stuff out. It might be worth your time to attempt the little crop and color work that Ralph suggested. That way when "an actualy paying gig" does come along, you've already practiced and can pull off some color correction.

But, good video. The audio was fine and the video looked good. Keep it up.

Yeah, I'm still going to deliver the best that I can in the time that I can. I'll give the crop a shot. That youtube clip was without any adjustments at all. I did experiment with doing a little adjusting and was happy with the results.

The sound on that clip was the direct board feed, but when I mixed in the XL2 audio slightly, it added a bit of warmth to the lower end and sounded a little fuller.

My next task is to try to figure out where to cut between the two video streams. :P Makes me wish I had a live switcher.

JR

The sound on that clip was the direct board feed, but when I mixed in the XL2 audio slightly, it added a bit of warmth to the lower end and sounded a little fuller.


What you are doing by mixing in a bit of the XL2 track is equivalent to adding a bit of reverb. Indeed, the positive effect is that it sounds a little fuller and warmer. The negative effects is that it makes the stereo image less clear.

(But I can't tell from the youtube clip, because youtube converts everything to mono)


My next task is to try to figure out where to cut between the two video streams. :P Makes me wish I had a live switcher.

FWIW, I find that final cut's multiclips are the best approximation of a live switcher. Other people have different opinions.