http://www.engadget.com/2008/01/06/samsung-cranks-out-1080p-flash-camcorders/

Full HD SC-HMX20C:

Captures video in progressive Full HD 1080p, selectable for 30fps or 60fps

HDMI-CEC (Anynet+), camcorder control using a Samsung HDTV remote
8GB of internal flash memory; SDHC / MMC+ expansion slot1
1/8-inch 6.4-megapixel CMOS sensor
10x optical zoom

300fps slow-motion recording mode for up to 10 seconds
4-megapixel still image capture
2.7-inch wide LCD touchscreen display
iCheck button for easy access to memory / battery levels
USB 2.0 and PictBridge connections
Component, S-Video and composite outputs
For the rest of the foursome, click on through.

Would make for a great crashcam!

I believe although it records progressive it outputs interlaced which is sad if true- let's hope it does indeed output 1080 progressive.
The 1/8" chip is scary small- wonder what low light recording is going to be like.

I agree, 1/8 is too small. Plus a rolling shutter is still a possibility.

If the 300fps is better quality than sony's I may pick one up.

I belive it have a IMX017CQE, because follow key features
6.4M Pixel,
Supports 60 frame/s at full res,
supports 300 frame/s
Diagonal 9.10 mm (Type 1/1.8)

http://www.sony.net/Products/SC-HP/cx_news/vol47/pdf/imx017cqe.pdf

1/8" is too small!

I think the 1/8 inch sensor was a typo somewhere down the line.

If you look at the lens here:
http://www.engadget.com/photos/hands-on-with-samsungs-sc-hmx20c-1080p-camcorder/559822/

you will see it is labelled 6.3 - 63mm focal length. At 1/8 inch that would be a 136 - 1360 mm focal length equivalent in 35 mm photography - giving Samsung the award for the funniest lens on a camcorder ever.

If you read the sensor specs as: 1/1.8 inch, you get 31 - 310 mm focal length which is rather nice (and makes a lot more sense).

My suspicion is that the three high speed camcorders that are being released all use the same sony sensor, which was announced about a year ago (http://www.dpreview.com/news/0702/07021801sonyhighspeedcmos.asp) which is the same one Robert is referring to I think.

So has Samsung the best concept of implementation? Maybe.

I am excited.

That's a huge typo error on Samsungs part if true- which it seems it is!!!!

Ha ha, just realised that Sony HDR-SR12 is only using a 1/3rd inch version of the sensor for their new lineup. So the Casio EXILIM Pro EX-F1 is the only cam that definitely uses the 1/1.8 inch chip.

There are two possibilities for the Samsung: It may be 1/1.8 inch sensor which makes it a dream cam with a great wideangle ...

or it may be 1/3 inch sensor like the Sony cam, which gives it a dull 45.5 - 455 zoom range (35mm equivalent).

Now it is easier to mistype 1/1.8 as 1/8 rather than confusing 8 and 3. That's my hope at least.

That's a huge typo error on Samsungs part if true- which it seems it is!!!!
The typo is probably Engadget's, not Samsung's.

The bit I'm choking on is "captures video in progressive Full HD 1080p, selectable for 30fps or 60fps." Does this really mean it can capture a 1080p image at 60fps? I flat don't believe it. The data rate would have to spew bits like a firehose.

I hope it's not like the casio cam because that one shoots 60fps for 1 second for a total of 60 frames.

Does it have a global shutter, or rolling?

The typo is probably Engadget's, not Samsung's.

The bit I'm choking on is "captures video in progressive Full HD 1080p, selectable for 30fps or 60fps." Does this really mean it can capture a 1080p image at 60fps? I flat don't believe it. The data rate would have to spew bits like a firehose.

Easy enough with a higher level of compression at the same 25 MBps data rate. Or if it's to flash or hard drive, there's little reason not to expect 100 BMbps.

1/8th is super small, but 1/6th happens, so it could be possible.

As deep and uncontrollable the DOF and poor the S/N ratio would be at the size, it *would* make sense for the 300FPS spec. Smaller chip = higher possible frame rates.

I have a feeling it might not be a typo!

But i'm hoping it's a 1/4 chip though, at low end.

Is there any other way to confirm?

Or, it might just scale down and use a smaller area of the sensor of a 1/4 or 1/6" chip size for the 300FPS function - it might just use 1/8" area size of the sensor.

Neat cam though! Nice simple styling, Samung = neo Sony (that's their plan)!

Body of this camcorder very similar to HMX10C (~$600-800) 720p50/60 H.264
http://www.ifa-show.com/0237/samsung/hdcamcorder/samsung-hmx10c-hd-camcorder/
HMX10C used Ambarella H264 encoder and HMX20C possible too newest one
A390 HD chip
http://www.ambarella.com/news/press_releases/pr_01282008.htm

If it's anything like their HMX10, it's really 1/8inch sensor. I had one of these for testing. It's altogether unusable for interiors without strong lighting (even for home video purposes). Footage was so noisy you couldn't tell what you're watching. Hence, I cannot even imagine its output when shooting 300 fps.

If it's anything like their HMX10, it's really 1/8inch sensor. I had one of these for testing. It's altogether unusable for interiors without strong lighting (even for home video purposes). Footage was so noisy you couldn't tell what you're watching. Hence, I cannot even imagine its output when shooting 300 fps.If it uses the Sony IMX017CQE, which is likely, it's 1/1.8 inch (or a little more than 1/2 inch), not 1/8 inch. The IMX017CQE is new.

Here (http://www.samsung.com/us/support/spec/supportSpecSearch.do?_site_cd=us&group=camerascamcorders&group_cd=&type=camcorders&type_cd=&subtype=highdefinition&subtype_cd=&model_nm=SC-HMX20C&dType=D&vType=R&mType=UM&model_cd=SC-HMX20C%2FXAA&fullspec=F&prd_ia_cd=04020600&acc_ia_fl=&disp_nm=SC-HMX20C&menu=&isEqualsY=&sel_model_cd=SC-HMX20C%2FXAA) it says it's using a 1/1.8" 6.4M CMOS sensor, the same specs as the Sony IMX017CQE sensor. It records H.264 in Superfine, Fine and Normal modes. This .pdf (http://www.samsung.com/us/system/consumer/product/2008/04/30/sc_hmx20cxaa/SC-HMX20C_spec.pdf) says it'll record 90 minutes to its 8GB of built in flash, expandable via SDHC. This works out to 12Mbit/s. Hopefully this is the Normal mode and Superfine is double that, though I doubt it. It's not stated whether 300fps is recorded HD or SD, but it should at least be 720x480 as that is the lowest resolution listed. No mic in, but it does have HDMI out and a swiveling sort of pistol grip. Only EIS not OIS. At the current exchange rate the announced (http://www.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.samsung.co.kr%2Fnews%2Fbiz_view.jsp%3Fcontentid%3D119838&hl=en&ie=UTF8&sl=ko&tl=en) 899,000KRW price is 861USD.
I'm jazzed about this thing. Big sensor, SDHC recording, small size, 300fps. I just hope it uses a decent H.264 encoder at a robust-enough bitrate. We'll see.

Here (http://www.samsung.com/us/support/spec/supportSpecSearch.do?_site_cd=us&group=camerascamcorders&group_cd=&type=camcorders&type_cd=&subtype=highdefinition&subtype_cd=&model_nm=SC-HMX20C&dType=D&vType=R&mType=UM&model_cd=SC-HMX20C%2FXAA&fullspec=F&prd_ia_cd=04020600&acc_ia_fl=&disp_nm=SC-HMX20C&menu=&isEqualsY=&sel_model_cd=SC-HMX20C%2FXAA) it says it's using a 1/1.8" 6.4M CMOS sensor, the same specs as the Sony IMX017CQE sensor. It records H.264 in Superfine, Fine and Normal modes. This .pdf (http://www.samsung.com/us/system/consumer/product/2008/04/30/sc_hmx20cxaa/SC-HMX20C_spec.pdf) says it'll record 90 minutes to its 8GB of built in flash, expandable via SDHC. This works out to 12Mbit/s. Hopefully this is the Normal mode and Superfine is double that, though I doubt it. It's not stated whether 300fps is recorded HD or SD, but it should at least be 720x480 as that is the lowest resolution listed. No mic in, but it does have HDMI out and a swiveling sort of pistol grip. Only EIS not OIS. At the current exchange rate the announced (http://www.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.samsung.co.kr%2Fnews%2Fbiz_view.jsp%3Fcontentid%3D119838&hl=en&ie=UTF8&sl=ko&tl=en) 899,000KRW price is 861USD.
I'm jazzed about this thing. Big sensor, SDHC recording, small size, 300fps. I just hope it uses a decent H.264 encoder at a robust-enough bitrate. We'll see.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't 1/1.8" close to being a 1/2" sensor?! (EDIT: yes, it is as Lawrence pointed out)

Since Sony is going for the neo-Sony business model (their own sexy variant) this could be their push for 1/2" sensors in the consumer market.

Here's a quick run down of the IMX017CQE - Sony's 1/1.8" high speed CMOS sensor:

http://www.dpreview.com/news/0702/07021801sonyhighspeedcmos.asp

This little camera suddenly got one heck of a lot more interesting!

http://downloadcenter.samsung.com/content/UM/200805/20080514172437796_SC-HMX20C_ENG_IB_0403.pdf

Manual Download

From the manual:
[SD] Slow Motion
• Records in the slow motion (448x336 300fps).
• This is great for analyzing a golf swing or a viewing a bird in flight.
By increasing the record rate from 60 fields per second (fps) to 300 fps for 10 seconds,
the camcorder allows you to capture 10 seconds of fast motion. When played back, the video will be 50 seconds long.

Samsung site where I got the info.
http://www.samsung.com/us/support/spec/supportSpecSearch.do?_site_cd=us&group=camerascamcorders&group_cd=&type=camcorders&type_cd=&subtype=highdefinition&subtype_cd=&model_nm=SC-HMX20C&dType=D&vType=R&mType=UM&model_cd=SC-HMX20C%2FXAA&fullspec=F&prd_ia_cd=04020600&acc_ia_fl=&disp_nm=SC-HMX20C&menu=&isEqualsY=&sel_model_cd=SC-HMX20C%2FXAA

Amazing find, Winston!

some highlights from the manual:

Yes, it is a 1/1.8 imaging sensor. Offers manual shutter speed setting and a cinema tone option. Touch screen focussing on the desired object, although no indication if it works during recording. External microphone jack!

16mbit per sec data rate in extra fine.

Lens goes from F1.8 to F2.5, not bad. Should allow some semi shallow DOF.
As indicated earlier, no OIS.

Really hope there will be a 25p version for Europe.

No O.I.S.? That is a must have on a cmos camcorder! Otherwise its no better than aiptek (regarding skew wobble and strobe)

I tried calling B&H right now to see if this is just a huge mistake before posting this but realized that they closed at 2:00pm. On their catalog, it lists the SC-HMX20C for $299.95.

I've had the catalog for days now and my eyes lid up when I saw that last night.

At this price, I want eight please ;-)

I have a feeling that should read $899.95....but hey if its marked at that then maybe they'll have to stand buy it :-)

Are we certain when this little bad boy is coming out? I'm an avid HV20 owner who's watching/waiting to see what firmware features this will come with - true 24P? Aperature & Shutter control? Gain control? IRE display? Never used a Samsung before...

I just called them up and it was obviously a big mistake. Their asking price is a little under $850 which is a lot more realistic. I wouldn’t be surprised if they had numerous phone calls because of me.

That would have been awesome if I ordered it the day the catalog got to me before they noticed the mistake.

Just killed my dream~~~~~

Found this on vimeo:
3 camera shootout
http://www.vimeo.com/1033083

Download the quicktime here
http://www.vimeo.com/download/video:67058192?e=1211250869&h=fcc92de5d434a4051ef947fb623dbe18

Hard to tell anything from those samples, though the Samsung looks pretty good (the WA lens had obvious edge softness at the least).

It's sort of silly having a shootout with a M1 Abrams, and a couple of Volkswagons IMO - they don't even add up to half the price of the V1, so I'm scratching my head a bit.

I've got the FX7, the V1's little bro, it's a fine camera, and blew the HV20 (when I had one briefly) out of the water, but it's comparing apples and oranges. I still have to A/B the SR11 and the FX7, but I think that's going to be a LOT closer.

The Samsung MIGHT be a great cam for the $, but someone who knows how to run CONTROLLED tests will have to test and see. For $299, I'd probably try it <wink>, but at "full price" it's more than I paid for my SR11, and I'm not THAT interested, more just curious!!

Those video samples don't show anything conclusive. The poster who made them must have been able to see more on their computer, but I question their 'eye' - that Wide-Angle lens was such a trashy image - the Chromatic Aberrations were horrible on hard edges. I hope no one would use an SD lens like that on an HD camera for actual use.

I'll wait till I see full 1920x1080 images or full 1080p video.

from B&H. cant wait to get it.

Got it! Love it.

Lets' hear more about it! I am really interested in teaming this little camera up with a letus.

Got it! Love it.

Could please tell us how the slow motion looks and how does the HD look on this camera.

If possible, please post examples both stills and video from the camera.


Thanks,

Bob Diaz

I decided to go down to the local Circuit City to try the camera and took a memory card with me. I have a iMAC so I wanted to see if the files generated would work or not.

Sadly, even with the latest update version of the OS, the answer is NO!!! The files start to play in Quicktime, but lock up the QT player. I've put a copy of the file on my public WEB page for those who want to Play with the files.

http://idisk.mac.com/bobdiaz-Public?view=web

You will find the files under the HMX20C folder. From that folder, you will find the exact menu layout that you will find on a memory card.

If you have a MAC, remember Option+Command+ESC brings up the "Force Quit" Window.

Until Apple fixes this problem, there is no way to play the files properly on a MAC. CRUD!!!

I was thinking of importing the files into FCE (Final Cut Express), but given the QT lockup, I didn't want FCE to become screwed up too.


Bob Diaz

Although the camera work is a bit dodgey :-) These file play fine in Quicktime on my Intel Macbook 2ghz Core Duo with 2gb Ram. Thanks for making them available.

I agree- I was able to see all the clips you've posted on my MacPro, no problems at all.....FCE will have no problem ingesting these clips. The clips can be decoded with the AVC1decoder.

Has anyone found a good review of this camera yet?

VERY ODD!!!

I'm running 10.5.3 OS and can play the clips about 3/4 of the way before I get a lock up and can't do anything in Quicktime before I have to use force quit. I'll have to try the clips on other MACs to see what happens.

Now the great mystery, why does it screw up for me??? Even FCE (Final Cut Express) locks up on me with these files.

OK, I know my camera works sucks, but I only had a limited time in the store to try stuff.

As far as working with the camera, even with my limited time, I loved the camera, it had 1080/60i, 1080/30p, 480/60p, as well as a less than SD 300 FPS slow motion. Selecting things from the menu was so easy and operation was a breeze.

It was smart enough to jump from menu to record mode just by pushing the record button.

As far as size and weight, the camera is small and light weight. There's a good and a bad side to this... being small and light makes it easy to carry around, so it's more tempting to take it along, BUT being small and light makes it harder to hold steady.

IF I didn't have problems, I was ready to go back and buy it, but because I can't work with the files, I'm not going to get it until I know what went wrong and how to fix it. CRUD!!! So close and yet so far.


Bob Diaz

UPDATE:

I decided to test this on my son's MAC Mini and found the same lockup on playing the video 3/4 of the way. His is also OS X 10.5.3

Interesting... So, what OS X version are you running that does NOT cause the lock-up past 3/4 of the way through the video???

Thanks,

Bob Diaz

Hi Bob, I am using OS 10.4.11 with QT 7.5. There is something a bit odd about the files that may be causing the problem. They seem "slightly" corrupt. One of them has what I could only call dropout in it. I don't know what could have caused this, the other sample files that I have managed to try from this camera have been very clean from start to end. When I try to convert your files to another codec using QuickTime it does bomb out.

Mac OS X 10.5.3
2X 2.66 GHz Dual-Core Intel Xeon
3GB 667 MHz DDR2 FB-DIMM
Mac Pro

Clips played perfectly~

Hi Richard,

"the other sample files that I have managed to try from this camera have been very clean from start to end. "

If you were able to download these files from the internet, please post the link where you found them.

I wonder if the files you saw were 50i or 25P; where as the files I have are 60i, 30p, and 60p.


I find it odd that I can play part of the file OK, but the crash happens about 3/4 the way into the file. It's almost as if there's some glitch lying in wait. If this had happened on one file, I would write it off as a bad copy, but all the longer files have it. Now I wonder if somehow the card I used couldn't keep up and dropped a frame.


Bob Diaz

Bob, thats what I was thinking. I have had quicktime video files that have opened fine before but contain a glitch which freezes playback. The card you used was very low capacity? I think this camera likes SDHC cards. Shame the camera doesn't warn you. The fact is that these files are readable on a Mac. My recommendation would be to convert them to something more useable for editing like the apple intermediate codec.

http://www.vimeo.com/download/video:73623266?e=1213645897&h=0f49cca48bb005143057e45559fcb9b3

Clips play fine for me but have a few sections where the image looks corrupt. I do have the avc1Decoder codec installed - don't have the link here but I found it in the Xacti forum - and quicktime appears to be using it for playback.

Specifically looking at HDV_0004.MP4 I assume you don't have image stabilization enabled - if you do it appears quite useless, which could be a problem with a camera this small. However with the amount of shaking going on at full tele I was surprised to see little or no rolling shutter effect (the 'rubbery' look, not tilting verticals on pans) - it's certainly the least I've ever seen on a CMOS-based camera.

Actually from what i've seen- the video quality looks "allot" like the Xacti series.....nothing too special there- just my casual observances!

Bob, thats what I was thinking. I have had quicktime video files that have opened fine before but contain a glitch which freezes playback. The card you used was very low capacity? I think this camera likes SDHC cards. Shame the camera doesn't warn you. The fact is that these files are readable on a Mac. My recommendation would be to convert them to something more useable for editing like the apple intermediate codec.

http://www.vimeo.com/download/video:73623266?e=1213645897&h=0f49cca48bb005143057e45559fcb9b3

I'm beginning to wonder if I screwed up by using a tiny 512MB off brand SD card. A buffer overflow could cause a dropped frame that could screw up my MAC playback. Sadly, it looks like every program in my Mac uses the same drive to read the file, so the same lock-up occurs with every program. Thus, there's no way to convert the file to AIC.

Because I can play, stop, and exit Quicktime before the 3/4 point in the files, this suggests a glitch is in the files. Now I'm tempted to buy a class 4 SDHC card ($25 USA, equal to about 16 Euro) and re-do the test...


Bob Diaz

first review (that I've seen at least) up here:

http://www.engadgethd.com/2008/06/17/samsung-sc-hmx20c-hd-camcorder-review/

Not incredibly detailed but overall positive review with some sample clips

Well it went quiet here for while we all digested the footage I guess. For me the Samsung pictures are too compressed. Not that there is anything wrong with compression but they really show it on anything moving. Back to HDV for me, probably an HV30.