Hi,

I had a VERY short experience with both (IBC) and we are looking to make camera purchases, and we would like some feedback on these choices. Best would be from people who have used both, but anyone can chime in.
I also live in Belgium, where there is almost zero chance at trying these camera's out (is there a chance someone could provide a new dvinfo sponsor from this area or around - France, Netherlands, Germany - because it's a bit frustrating at times).
Now overview:

WORKFLOW
Canon: tapes, which can be cumbersome because of all the capturing afterwards, and drop outs, but easy to archive on a long term.
Sony: compact flash cards, requires a complete different workflow, with
a laptop on the field, problems with archiving on a long term (HDD's in RAID setup?), but you don't have to capture anymore, no drop outs,...
conclusion: I'm very curious about going into this new tapeless workflow (will be using a Macbook Pro and Mac Pro) but not sure about the archiving on long term. Don't have the budget at this moment to buy a Blue Ray burner or something. So they both have their advantages/disavantages.

FORMAT
Canon: HDV, the Canon codec, I've heard, is really good, but it's still HDV.
Sony: XDcam, same sort of compression, but with higher datarates, and enough for full raster 1080p resolution (although I don't care so much about resolution, in the sense that I'm not a number cruncher).
conclusion: Sony wins, easily.

ERGONOMICS
Canon: I've had a XL1s, which I was very pleased with, from controls. The handformat A1 will be a bit different in controls, but I suppose the basics are the same?
Sony: the camera looks like an (ugly) brick, and I've used a Z1 in the past, but I didn't like the controls very much. I suppose the EX1 is pretty much the same in this class.
conclusion: I don't know, because I haven't handled both enough, but it seems the Canon would be the most intuitive, and has the best placed buttons and menu design.

COST/PRICE
Canon: very cheap in camera's AND media (minidv tapes).
Sony: twice the price of the Canon AND pretty expensive media.
conclusion: the Sony is much more costly, of course...

FEATURES
Canon: has smaller chips, but 25f. XLR. Very small LCD screen, which I'm a bit worried about... Has all the basics covered, it seems.
Sony: has bigger chips, which give it a HUGE advantage, big LCD screen, 25p, XLR, HDSDI (but I won't use that, I think),... am I right, that it also shoots NTSC AND PAL, like the Z1? Variable framerates...
conclusion: Sony has much more features.

PICTURE QUALITY
Canon: well, I've seen fine examples on the internet, and some very bad... Some look very video-like, others look much better. But haven't had enough testing.
Sony: the examples I've seen untill know were very good, and I've been pretty amazed at the sharpness of the footage, the deep colours and the low light performance, although I haven't seen soo much of the camera.
conclusion: I think a good cinematographer can get good footage out of both, and a bad one won't be able to get good footage with neither of them. I haven't done my own testing, but I should say I've been very amazed with some Sony EX samples.

I think I have the basics covered... Now, our preference goes to the Sony at this point, but we are doubting between buying 2 Canons or buying one Sony, and renting a second one if needed.

Love to have people's opinions, as stated, my preference goes to people who have used them both and can compare them much better then I do in a real world situation, but as I said: everyone who wants to chime in, please do.

Thanks in advance

As you know asking this in an EX1 forum.....

They both produce nice footage. The A1 has proven itself as quite the camera. With image comparison aside, you really need to decide if you want tape over a memory based solution.

Tape is great for long events and solves the archiving problem.
On the other hand, I can't say I miss the occasional tape drop-outs.
They always seem to happen at the worse time.

I can't say enough about the image quality from the EX1. It's really amazing.
One thing that might turn you away is the CMOS rolling shutter. The XH A1 will not suffer from this problem. Well, the RED ONE also implements CMOS and many pros are jumping on that.

From your list, I'd say you really have a good idea about these cameras and their capabilities.

If image quality with the ability for time based effects such as slo-mo are important to you, I'd go with the EX1. The EX1 is really good in low light (low noise).

The XH A1 has the same CCDs as the XH H1 and produces decent images. The H1 has proven itself, that's for sure. If you're looking to save some money, you might want to go this route.

Yesterday I filmed at the same time with the XHA1 and the EX1 in the same scene. My material is here to download:

http://www.archive.org/details/ex1_xha1

Hi,

Wolfgang, thanks for the link, but I can only see some couple movies on that link, and not really a comparison, unless I'm looking wrong. And they are very compressed and difficult to judge by (sorry!).
Can you comment on the workflow and handling of both? What did you prefer, how much difference did you feel, saw, etc?

Steven, I don't know if the CMOS would disturb me so much. I'm not a videophile who is really taking the video apart, although if it would be really bad, I would of course notice it. But I'm more concerned about other things...

Thanks for the responses so far, keep them coming!

p.s. Steven: yes, I had to choose where to place the thread, and as I thought the EX is the most prefferred camera, but also the most new one, so I hope, by posting here, there is more chance that I get the opinion of people who have used both and more experience with the EX, which is (in comparison with HDV) the 'newer' workflow.

The MPEG2 of this side is the native stream.

Here the direct url:

All EX1 native MXF 35 MBit streams:

http://www.archive.org/download/ex1_xha1/EX1_01.mxf.mpg
http://www.archive.org/download/ex1_xha1/EX1_02.mxf.mpg
http://www.archive.org/download/ex1_xha1/EX1_03.mxf.mpg
http://www.archive.org/download/ex1_xha1/EX1_04.mxf.mpg
http://www.archive.org/download/ex1_xha1/EX1_05.mxf.mpg
http://www.archive.org/download/ex1_xha1/EX1_06.mxf.mpg
http://www.archive.org/download/ex1_xha1/EX1_07.mxf.mpg
http://www.archive.org/download/ex1_xha1/EX1_08.mxf.mpg

-----------------------------

All the native HDV 25 MBit streams from the Canon XH A1 (same time, same scene):

http://www.archive.org/download/ex1_xha1/XHA1_01.m2t.mpg
http://www.archive.org/download/ex1_xha1/XHA1_02.m2t.mpg
http://www.archive.org/download/ex1_xha1/XHA1_03.m2t.mpg
http://www.archive.org/download/ex1_xha1/XHA1_04.m2t.mpg
http://www.archive.org/download/ex1_xha1/XHA1_05.m2t.mpg
http://www.archive.org/download/ex1_xha1/XHA1_06.m2t.mpg
http://www.archive.org/download/ex1_xha1/XHA1_07.m2t.mpg
http://www.archive.org/download/ex1_xha1/XHA1_08.m2t.mpg

download this files to your disk, play with the VLC 0.8.6 mediaplayer....

Hi there wolfgang, I'm very interested to see that you have got an EX1. I used your -3db profile all the time I was using my XH-A1 and found it to be the best in terms of representing colours correctly.

Do you plan on doing anything similar with the EX1 profiles?

best regards

Paul.

Thanks Wolfgang, I'll check them out this afternoon!

<Do you plan on doing anything similar with the EX1 profiles?>

It's no my EX1 camera, it's a demo model from Sony Germany. If a buy the EX1 in the next month, then i create new EX1 profiles..... that's a hard work for a really good profiles!


<Thanks Wolfgang, I'll check them out this afternoon!>

In this sample, the Gain of the XHA1 and EX1 is -3dB. The XHA1 work with my -3dB Preset, the EX1 work without a special profiles.

In the next hours follow my XHA1+EX1 LowLight samples.....

I've tried to play them, and the Canon files play good, but my computer can't barely play the Sony files! (update of computers will come together with the camera's).

So I can't make a judgement (but I'll try different ways to view the footage in a correct manner) but at first glance, they don't look very different, or am I seeing wrong?

p.s.: only downloaded 2,4,6,8 from each one, because I have a download limit - in Belgium we can only download maximum 12 gigabyte per month :-(
I am very curious at the low light samples though, as I hope the 1/2 chips from the Sony will give the picture a significant boost in clarity.

<can't barely play the Sony files!>

download the last VLC 0.8.6 mediaplayer !!

<can't barely play the Sony files!>

download the last VLC 0.8.6 mediaplayer !!

yep, but it's the slowness of my computer, not the fault of the VLC player. I can like only see the first frame, then it just hangs.
Those new Mac's sure will be welcome when they arrive!

Mathieu, I have both XH A1 and EX1 now. You can see my low light comparison of EX1, A1, and HV20. It's Korean site, but simply click on the 'Video Play' button and double click on the video: http://www.camuser.co.kr/html/video_content.asp?boardname=VID_HDV_MOV&mode=&idx=3173&page=1&no=94&ref=&re_step=0&re_level=0&find=채소아저씨&search=name&top_name=&user_flag=G
You will see similar images three times : First: EX1, Second: A1, Third: HV20.

My opinion is simple : Both camcorders are really nice, but pay more for better image quality.

Thanks Mooho.

in some pictures the A1 and EX1 didn't had a huge difference, but in some pictures (low light and the one with the white door) the difference in light and detail was sure apparent.

How did you like the tapeless workflow in comparison with the A1?

Wolfgang, thanks for the comparison shots.
It's obvious one could easily cut these cameras together. It's amazing how close the overall image looks, at least, under those conditions.
In fact, you did a great job with the white balance and overall color match.

I imagine the EX1 should fair better in lower light.
Having said that, anyone on the fence with which camera to buy, the A1 is obviously a good deal!

Mathieu, I really like the 'tapeless' workflow except for the back-up. The tape was back-up itself, but EX1, I need double back-up to the HDD.

Here now the LowLight files from Ex1 + XHA1.

EX1 35MBit:
http://www.archive.org/download/ex1_xha1_lowlight/EX1_01.mxf.mpg
http://www.archive.org/download/ex1_xha1_lowlight/EX1_02.mxf.mpg
http://www.archive.org/download/ex1_xha1_lowlight/EX1_03.mxf.mpg
http://www.archive.org/download/ex1_xha1_lowlight/EX1_04.mxf.mpg
http://www.archive.org/download/ex1_xha1_lowlight/EX1_05.mxf.mpg


Canon XH A1 25Mbit:
http://www.archive.org/download/ex1_xha1_lowlight/XHA1_01.m2t.mpg
http://www.archive.org/download/ex1_xha1_lowlight/XHA1_02.m2t.mpg
http://www.archive.org/download/ex1_xha1_lowlight/XHA1_03.m2t.mpg
http://www.archive.org/download/ex1_xha1_lowlight/XHA1_04.m2t.mpg
http://www.archive.org/download/ex1_xha1_lowlight/XHA1_05.m2t.mpg

In the first sample(01), the EX1 goes with the Gain from -3dB to +6dB and to +18dB. The Canon from -3dB to +6dB to +12 dB. Shutter 100.

The sample 02-05 ist filmed in gain +6dB.

Wolfgang, EX1 file is ony 112KB. Something must of happened to your file. Actually for that matter, none of the EX1 files work.

>Wolfgang, EX1 file is ony 112KB. Something must of happened to your file. Actually for that matter, none of the EX1 files work.<

Upppsss..... now right! thanks....

In this images, I don't see much sensitivity difference between these cameras.
This is odd since I've seen a difference before. Where you trying to match exposures?
Without camera specifics such as f-stop, gain, ect... , it's hard to compare at least sensitivity.

Other than that. I'd say they are very close. I see you got the lens wet on the EX1 on the car street shot. Also, although CMOS has it's downfalls (that's for sure ;) ), I really like how it handles the lights at night without the CCD streaks. Also, the CA looked better on the EX1.

Here now the LowLight files from Ex1 + XHA1.



Hmmm, I'm very pleased with the image quality form the EX when compared to the A1. That's saying alot for me being that I have always preferred Canon's IQ over Sony's IQ. And this is in low-light!

Very interesting.

If you show the samples on a good 40 zoll FullHD Flatscreen, is the difference between Sony and Canon greater...... the EX1 files are cleaner (35MBit) in details (no red+blue CA).
Only in full Zoom is the XHA1 better, here is my EX1 very bad with red/blue CA.

http://www.fxsupport.de/test/ex1_00.jpg

EX1 Sample of full zoom.

Wolfgang, consider that interlaced shot, full zoom branches against a sky, I'm actually really pleased with the low CA. My JVC HD100 would of been horrible on this shot, so would of the Sony Z1.

Wolfgang,

Are the EX1 and A1 files, you provide links to, the capture files (converted or not) for use in premiere CS3 for edit testing?

Or are they recompressed output files from your editing system?

I'd like to test my premiere CS3 system on some EX1 samples.

<Or are they recompressed output files from your editing system?

No, i read the files from the SXS memory with Sonys Picturesoft and export to MXF.... thats native.

thanks a lot!

Thank you, Wolfgang, for sharing.
I am not pleased by the significant CA of the EX1 in full tele - the A1 looks better here. The better optics of the EX1 should show less CA in tele, even more since the EX1 has a reduced tele range (only x12 compared to x20 of the A1). How is this possible? Has anyone else found increased CA in EX1' tele shots?

Wolfgang,

what pp CS3 presets do i use to import the EX1 and H1 clips?

I don't see how these comparisons are meaningful with out posting your paint settings?