Hey guys. I have been spending much time concentrating on picture-quality, but I will not negate audio-quality. I have a budget of about 3-5 grand to spend on a full audio-recording system. What would be the best setup for feature films? Obviously, you try to get the best production sound you can, but will also A.D.R. What is the best method for gathering great sound? For on-set audio, I assume having a good shotgun-mic with a windscreen, boom etc, a digital recording medium that doesn't compress the audio data, and most of all...a competent sound-guy listening attentively to his headphones. For sound created in the studio, I assume an acoustically-treated room and good condenser mic with a quality pre-amp. I may be wrong. I have never even attempted to record sound good enough for a feature film before. What do the pros use? Their gear is probably in the hundreds of thousands of dollars range. Any help appreciated.

Dear Spencer,

I recommend that you consider the following:

Schoeps CMC-641 microphone with the Cut-1 filter.
Full Rycote setup for the above.
A good mixer - Sound Devices 302 or 442 (optional)
Sound Devices 7 Series Record (choose one of the "t" models with timecode"), personally, I would purchase the 744t.
K-Tek graphite boom pole.
Sony 7506 Headphones

Depending on your shoots, you may need some wired or wireless lavaliere microphones. A better lavalier such as a Sanken, Countman, or Tram will dramatically improve your sound over what comes with many wireless setups.

Or you can hire a sound man with the necessary experience and equipment. The above equipment will cost more than $3,000 to $5,000.

The mixer is optional, you could get by without it, especially if you are only going to record one channel directly into the Sound Devices recorder. However, as you add wireless or wired lavalieres or other microphones, the mixer will be nice to have.

Wow...that's a great reply man. So comprehensive! How much WOULD it cost?

Wow...that's a great reply man. So comprehensive! How much WOULD it cost?

Rough guess round numbers ($CDN) ...

CMC641 with Cut1: $2250 - $2500
Mixer: SD442 ... $2750 or SD302 ... $1250
Recorder: SD702T ... $2750 or SD744T ... $4250
Carbon fibre boom with Rycote suspension and full windkit: $1250 - $1500
Rechargeable battery kit and charger: $800
Phones, cases, misc cables, bag, etc: ~$750 - $1500

add lavs, wireless, other boom mics, etc on top of that.

The prices on Schoeps gear goes up February 1st.

The B&H Photo website is a great place to learn about gear and get prices.

Schoeps CMC-641 = $1592

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/377424-REG/Schoeps_CMC641SET_Colette_Series_Microphone_Set.html

Schoeps Cut-1 = $556

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/386424-REG/Schoeps_CUT1_Cut_1_Colette.html

Schoeps B5d = $58

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?shs=Schoeps+b5d&ci=0&sb=ps&pn=1&sq=desc&InitialSearch=yes&O=product.jsp&A=search&Q=*&bhs=t

K-Tek Boom Pole (12' 8") $689

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/292880-REG/K_Tek_K_152CCR_K_152CCR_5_Section_Graphite_Fiber.html

or you could get the longer 202CCR for more money, ($805)

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/292884-REG/K_Tek_K_202CCR_K_202CCR_5_Section_Graphite_Fiber.html

Sound Devices 302 $1295

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/292980-REG/Sound_Devices_302_302_Portable_3_Channel.html


Sound Devices 744t $ 4095

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/325631-REG/Sound_Devices_744T_744T_4_Channel_Portable.html

Sony MDR-7506 $99

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/49510-REG/Sony_MDR_7506_MDR_7506_Headphone.html

(My preference is the Sony MDR-7509, but these are not the industry standard.)

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/441844-REG/Sony_MDR7509HD_MDR_7509HD_Headphone.html

I have not yet located the prices for the full Rycote setup for the Schoeps, but it is probably in the $600 range.


Note: You will want a "Betacam Breakaway Cable" at some time for approximately $200.

And you will need good XLR cables.

You could get the Sound Devices 702T, but I feel that the 744t is a better long term investment and you can record four channels. The 744t has only two microphone preamplifiers, but together with the 302 you can record four microphones on separate channels.


(Note: Both Steve and I were composing our answers at the same time.)

You might want to read through the Frequently Asked Questions threads pinned at the top of the page. As you can see this is not an inexpensive endeavor; the recorder alone will exhaust most of your budget.

You might consider buying a couple of key items and renting the rest as you need it. Finally, leave some money for a book or two on how to capture quality audio.

All of the advice here is wonderful. I didn't expect such generous and well-considered comments. Thank you guys. It is invaluable.

I can quickly see that judicious allocation of funds is paramount and that I will not be able to get top of the line audio equipment just yet. That's fine, considering my first few features will be more like glorified experimental films. I assume that, like all other electronic equipment, audio gear adheres to a bell-curve as well as the law of diminishing returns. The key now is hitting the sweet spot. These first few films will not be released in any theatrical fashion, but be tailor-made for home video. Not that that is any reason to skimp on quality; some of the home-theatre systems out there are astounding. The question is now; how much will I have to spend to get results on a level where people aren't going to watch the movie and say: "That movie had crappy sound"?

I think good quality mics, and knowing how to use them, and a mixer will get you started. There's no need to buy everything at once in your situation unless you have a pile of cash lying around!

The pit people fall into, at least from my perspective here, is they think one set up will suffice for all situations, and it won't. So the task at hand is to identify your conditions (indoors or out, single speaker or many etc) and build your kit from there.

All of the advice here is wonderful. I didn't expect such generous and well-considered comments. Thank you guys. It is invaluable.

I can quickly see that judicious allocation of funds is paramount and that I will not be able to get top of the line audio equipment just yet. That's fine, considering my first few features will be more like glorified experimental films. I assume that, like all other electronic equipment, audio gear adheres to a bell-curve as well as the law of diminishing returns. The key now is hitting the sweet spot. These first few films will not be released in any theatrical fashion, but be tailor-made for home video. Not that that is any reason to skimp on quality; some of the home-theatre systems out there are astounding. The question is now; how much will I have to spend to get results on a level where people aren't going to watch the movie and say: "That movie had crappy sound"?

Spencer:

You might want to take a gander at this. It's an old article but still conceptually valid http://www.kenstone.net/fcp_homepage/location_sound.html
It's not going to recommend a bunch of specific gear but others here have already done that.

Dan

Dear Spencer,

I do not know what camera you are using.

If you camera has XLR input with Phantom Power, then to get started, I recommend the following.


Schoeps CMC641 with Cut 1
Sennheiser G2 Wireless set (A or B Frequence Range)
Sanken Cos-11 or Tram TR50 Lavalier
XLR Cables
Sony MDR-7506 Headphones

You will need a suspension for the Schoeps or you can get the full Rycote setup. You will also need a boom pole.

The Schoeps can be used indoors or outdoors and produces great sound (in the proper hands).

This will get you started, and all of the above will be long term investments that will far outlast any camera that you have.

If you have an HDV camera, then the audio quality will be generally acceptable in many cases, but will never be as good as recording directly into a Sound Devices 744t or other high quality recorder.

But, all of the above will cost subtantially less than your $5,000 figure and can be augmented with more equipment when you ready.

If you camera does not have "Phantom Power" and manual audio gain controls, then you really need a separate audio recorder.

If you camera does not have "Phantom Power" and manual audio gain controls, then you really need a separate audio recorder.Dan,

I am sure you meant "a separate field mixer", such as the SD302, which would provide phantom power, manual gain controls, and of course good pre-amps.

- Martin

Dear Martin,

I was trying to recommend top-quality gear that would last for many years and give him great quality sound now and in the future, and also come in within his budget of $3,000 to $5,000.

Thus, I eliminated the Sound Devices 302 Mixer and the Sound Devices 7-series recorder (at this time). If he can afford the 302 at this time, I recommend that he purchase one.

So, if his camera can record decent audio, then he can either use the Schoeps (if it can be close enough and still be out of the shot) or he can use one channel of wireless with a good quality lavaliere.

When he has more money, he may want to add another lavalier, another wireless, a mixer and a great sound recorder.

Ideally, he should have a mixer, such as a Sound Devices 302 or 442. But one could get by, with some tradeoffs, by going directly into his camera. Yes, it will be hard or impossible to control the levels while shooting, but I am considering his $3,000 to $5,000 as a hard limit at this time.

I would rather recommend top-notch equipment, that he could augment later, than for him to spend money now on equipment that will have to be replaced later and will not give him the sound he wants.

If his camera can record uncompressed 48k 16 bit audio, he can get very nice audio. If he has the 7-Series or other great audio recorder, then he can record 24 bit audio which is better.

But, in any case, the Schoeps equipment will provide great sound now, indoors or outside (but not in the highest of humidty situations).

I fully agree that the Sound Devices 302 has better preamps than many cameras. If he wants to spend the full $5,000 then he can include the Sound Devices 302 and his sound will be better. The limiters on the 302 will be very helpful.

If his camera does not have manual audio gain controls, then it will be very difficult to obtain great sound as the camera will be varying the sound levels inappropriately, increasing the noise level at times. This is why I felt that he would need a separate recorder, if he did not have manual gain controls.

Dan,This is why I felt that he would need a separate recorder, if he did not have manual gain controls.OK, this time I got it. I confused "manual" with "easily accessible" gain controls. I guess I must have taken for granted that someone in the market to buy pro gear will not hook it up to a camera with auto gain control, but you are right, if that were the case, a separate recorder would be the cure.

Sorry I misunderstood this the first time around, and I agree with everything else you wrote.

- Martin

Dear Martin,

Thanks, no problem at all.

I think this dicussed may have made it cleared for Spencer.

And I fully agree that the Sound Devices 302 (or the 442) would be a great addition to his setup.

And I fully agree that the Sound Devices 302 (or the 442) would be a great addition to his setup.

Anything in front of the Sound Devices 7xx series is almost required for video. The adjustments from the unit itself is pretty hard to deal with especially for over the shoulder work.

Wayne

the upside of getting upper end gear, resale value. at least for audio, it holds value much longer then video gear, especially cameras. a camera can be worth 1/2 to 1/2 what you paid for it in just a couple of years if you happen to buy at the end of a model's run, and something super duper comes out months after you got the camera you have.

in fact, the CMC641 for the next few days might be the deal, as its going up Feb 1. enough in fact that if you bought today, you could sell it 6 months from now and get what you paid for it, basically using if for free.

and may I suggest go out an learn hands on. ideally find a sound mixer who needs some help and do it for cheap or free a few times to learn. be honest about your experience level. I'm always looking for interns as they come and go,but they always learn a lot while here. the gas to get you to the shoot could well be the very best money you spend.

hi guys, please excuse me for joining. I just ordered the 702 recorder to go with my 302 mixer. I got the non timecoded version, will there be negative impact not having timecode. My understanding is that timecode is necessary for instance music videos, or for cameras that support TC IN/OUT. Is it absolutely necessary for the time code version, there is a $1000 difference between the 702 and 702T

If only the responses of the video-guys were this detailed...maybe I should become a sound guy. You people are most helpful.

I have a Sony PMW-EX1.

I like how you guys are recommending gear that I can continue to use as I build my sound kit. That's exactly what I want to do. I hate buying stuff I am going to sell later. I'm a buy the right thing once type of person. I eventually want to focus on the creative side of filmmaking, so getting good gear that I can learn on and get skilled at using is very important. I can see I am going to have to hire a few people once I get my production company rolling.

hi guys, please excuse me for joining. I just ordered the 702 recorder to go with my 302 mixer. I got the non timecoded version, will there be negative impact not having timecode. My understanding is that timecode is necessary for instance music videos, or for cameras that support TC IN/OUT. Is it absolutely necessary for the time code version, there is a $1000 difference between the 702 and 702T

Timecode is a convenience but usually not an absolute necessity. There's a lot of misunderstanding about what TC does and doesn't do for you when recording double system sound for video - a lot of people say you need TC to keep long takes in sync but that's not how it works. If you plan on hiring yourself out as a mixer I'd say you should absolutely get the TC version of the recorder in order to be able to provide it if the producer or audio post house asks for it or if they need a timecoded audio tape for transcription but if you're gearing up just for your own use it's much less critical. But on the other hand, considering that professional audio gear lasts much longer and holds its value much better than camera gear, I'd also say to buy with your anticipated future usage in mind rather than just for today's needs. If your budget will permit the TC capable-recorder then by all means don't worry about the kilobuck and go ahead and get one, it'll proably prove a good investment in the long run. If it'll strain the budget too far, movies were made for decades with nothing more for sync than an old-fashioned clapper slate.

BTW, the price difference between the 702 and 702T is actually closer to $650 rather than a thousand. Not quite as much a strain.

nice response steve. i figure since the recorder will be used for our own productions, the non timecoded version should be fine, i was thinking of using the camera's on board audio as a guide track for the 24bit 48khz recording on the 702.

Timecode is a convenience but usually not an absolute necessity.

In the video world this is an absolute. In the film world not so much so now, although as I've pointed out previously, I was amazed to learn how many of the major productions still hand sync film and audio.

Steve is right about the requirements. Unless you're going to start hiring yourself out as a mixer, then I would say your purchase was probably the right choice. Few if any of the indie projects I work on even consider timecode. Usually it's not until I talk to them about what they are shooting and in what format that I bring up timecode. Slowly I'm introducing most of them to timecode, but generally that's because they don't have the tools and I do.

Also, I don't know how many people are aware of this, but usually the burden of timecode and timecode equipment is placed on the audio crew. We tend to own the slates, master timecode devices, and boxes to properly jam the cameras.

Wayne

Are you saying you consider TC to be absolutely required for the video world or that it's a convenience but not required? Unclear on what you meant.

Are you saying you consider TC to be absolutely required for the video world or that it's a convenience but not required? Unclear on what you meant.

Sorry, that I think it's a convenient thing to have. It is not required. Now, a slate (even a dumb slate), that I would call an absolute must have. ;-)

Wayne

Sorry, that I think it's a convenient thing to have. It is not required. Now, a slate (even a dumb slate), that I would call an absolute must have. ;-)

Wayne

That's what I'd thought you meant but was just checkin' <grin> And I absolutely agree on the slate. In fact, a Don Earl Hollywood Classic slate was actually the first piece of gear I bought (seriously - hung it on the wall next to my workstation to serve as inspiration for my career aspirations)!

Just my two cents, but on the list mentioned previously I'd hold off on the cut 1 and the harddisk recorder. Instead, get wireless and decent lavs. As far as timecode on the recorder, I wouldn't buy one if it didn't have it. Also, a shotgun is a must. Sanken CS3e does it for us, but there are other options. Don't bother with a blimp or expensive suspension system. Get a good shockmount and dead cat style wind protection from Rycote or K-Tek.

Just my two cents, but on the list mentioned previously I'd hold off on the cut 1 and the harddisk recorder. Instead, get wireless and decent lavs. As far as timecode on the recorder, I wouldn't buy one if it didn't have it. Also, a shotgun is a must. Sanken CS3e does it for us, but there are other options. Don't bother with a blimp or expensive suspension system. Get a good shockmount and dead cat style wind protection from Rycote or K-Tek.

Marco has the right idea. You can rent a recorder when needed. I would buy the best shotgun mic/w blimp, wireless, field mixer you can afford. When you get to the point where you are renting a recorder to the point where you think you can pay for one then buy one.