I've been looking around for a reliable workflow for generating SD content(DVD encodeable) from HD content. This workflow would resize, color correct and convert to SD MPEG2 with the smallest conversion losses, maintaining quality as high as possible and converting from REC709(HD) color to REC601(SD) color.

With thanx to Alan Levi, here's what seems to work quite well:

1-Edit, composite and cut in your favorite NLE(I'm using Edius). Stay in HD, and wrangle the color space to generate RGB16-235 output. Generate a high quality intermediate file when ready. I use Canopus HQ, but, Cineform would work as well. The Canopus HQ and Cineform codec works in REC601.

2-Canopus' Procoder3 allows the application of a REC709 to REC601 color space converter filter. The changes are very small, but anyone interested in being precise can do this step.

3-Bring the intermediate file into Virtualdub. Use the resize filter in VirtualDub to convert to SD.

4-Use TMPGenc to encode the MPEG2 file from the VirtualDub SD file.
Under "Environmental Setting" select "Interpolate YUV data from 4:1:1 to 4:4:4". Select CCIR-601 as the equation for color space.

As a closing note, it's becoming increasingly difficult to go from HD to SD without introducing a color space error. SD MPEG2 will generate REC601 color mapping regardless of what mapping you input. In other words, inputting HD(REC709) color space to a DVD encoder will cause loss of contrast in the final images. None of these applications wrangle the color space automatically, but, all of them have preferences to set up the I/O to maintain color space.

You can do that with freeware. No need for Procoder 3 and Tmpgenc and achieve at least the same quality. Colorspace convertions are not necessary, REC709 is an often used standard on many dvds. At least the dvds look like they should. They didn't with Canopus Procoder, though. A stretched contrast and soft but completely artifact free look was what I've achieved with it -terrible. Tmpgenc and Hcenc don't suffer from this problem.


I'll write a HowTo tomorrow.
You'll need megui and HCenc.


regards Dennis

Thanx, Dennis. Will look forward to seeing your workflow.
I used TMPgenc because I already had it and it comes highly recommended as the best MPEG encoder around. VirtualDub is free, and has (arguably?) the most artifact free resizing algorithms. As for intermediates, Sheervideo, HuffyUV, PicVideo...any of these will work. Each one has its own way of wrangling the colorspace conversion. It's a fact that the chroma differences, for all intents and purposes can be ignored. But the Luma differences can really look bad if not wrangled in the right way.

This guide seems to work well also.

http://www.kenstone.net/fcp_homepage/ex1_sd_output_young.html

This guide seems to work well also.

http://www.kenstone.net/fcp_homepage/ex1_sd_output_young.html

Only after an illegal install of Mac OSX on a standard PC :D


regards Dennis

Bill,

I am an Edius user as well.

I am surprised that Procoder is bested by TMPGenc.

My experience using only Procoder Express for SD material going to DVD has been stellar.

Has Procoder fallen behind in the HD space?

I have heard this on the Edius forums as well.

Tim...

I'm fairly new to Edius, so I can't really comment on PC's quality. The process I outlined, above, comes from the Edius Forum, itself. After running some files thru, I'm pleased with the outcome.

A related question: I want to be able to mix footage from my HD100 and EX1. I ran a test where I used 720p footage from the HD100 and 1080p footage from the EX1. I edited them together in FCP (in a XDCAM 1080p sequence) and then exported them as a clip through Compressor and burned a DVD. It looks fine. When I put them on a timeline in FCP together using your method, I can't get it to work right. The 720p clip comes through all zoomed in whereas the 1080p clip is fine. I'm obviously doing something wrong and I'm sure I'm not explaining it well. I'm pretty happy with the image I get doing it my way, but if there's a better way of doing it, I'm all ears.

Thanks.

Bill...

There's a lot of places in the chain where this might be happening. I know VirtualDub can be a little tricky to setup the resize filter.I'll attach a screenshot of my settings for you to try. Note that this is setup for a widescreen 16x9.

I never even got that far. This happened in the FCP timeline. I'll play around with it more and see what happened.

Thanks.

1280x720p footage has a Pixel Aspect Ratio of 1.0, while 1440x1080p footage has a PAR of 1.333.
So, if you drop both into a 1440x1080p project, the 720 footage will be distorted. To fix it before you render out, you need to apply a resize to the 720 footage. I think what I would do is drop each clip into VirtualDub, perform the SD resize on each clip, independently, then merge them after resizing.

Thanks Bill. I'll give it a try. So that's what PAR is.

Has anybody found a suitable workflow for Sony Vegas yet?

Has anybody found a suitable workflow for Sony Vegas yet?

I am also Vegas users. Have been looking high and low for Vegas workflow too. Tks

For starters, finish your edit on a 1920 x 1080 timeline, then Render as DVDA widescreen template.

Two things I've found helpful so far are

1. Select every clip and set Switches/Reduce Interlace flicker.
2. Make sure render is at Best quality

Results are reasonable but not quite perfect, yet, but other suggestions I've read are to add a fraction (maybe .002) of vertical gaussian blur and maybe a touch of median filter.

Two things I've found helpful so far are

1. Select every clip and set Switches/Reduce Interlace flicker.
2. Make sure render is at Best quality

Results are reasonable but not quite perfect, yet, but other suggestions I've read are to add a fraction (maybe .002) of vertical gaussian blur and maybe a touch of median filter.

Regarding point 1, I think that it is a messy work around although it does seem to help.
Regarding point 2, adding effects to the timeline such as median really slow down the render time by a LARGE factor. I have also heard that adding an unsharp mask also helps. The only problem is that these tricks probably have their own side effects and I think it is terrible that we have to run an unsharp mask over HD footage in order to convert to SD!

I think that Sony need to come up with a solution in their next update that will downsize the footage with a greater degree of accuracy. It is possible. The resizing algorithm just needs to be revised. Sony please take note!!!

Maybe I should start a Sony Vegas 8.0c update wishlist in the Sony Vegas thread here!

Regarding point 1, I think that it is a messy work around although it does seem to help.

Yes, as I said, it's not perfect - but what exactly do you mean by messy? It makes a considerable difference, even when viewing the resulting DVD on a CRT screen.

I agree - if Sony can come up with a straightforward way of doing this, I'm all ears.

Sony Vegas has so many problems, right now, I doubt they care. VirtualDub has several mathematical approaches to resizing, including Lanczos. It just can't be beat.

Perhaps a poor choice of words on my part but what I meant by "messy" is that we shouldn't need to select every clip and reduce interlace flicker. Fine if it works, and I know it does. My point is that it becomes a pain in the rear end having to include this step in our work flow. We are both in agreement that Sony needs to sort this problem out directly at the rendering stage.

Sony Vegas has so many problems, right now, I doubt they care. VirtualDub has several mathematical approaches to resizing, including Lanczos. It just can't be beat.

Hi Bill, how do you output your edited project from Vegas into VirtualDub? Do you use uncompressed AVI? I would like to try your workflow to see how I get on.

Keith..

First of all, I'm so disgusted with VEGAS, I avoid using it whenever possible, which is almost always. After Vegas v8b, EDIUS is a real joy to use and edit in.

Second, It's very rare for me to go straight from my captured clips to DVD output. Usually, I have cuts, blends, color grading, etc. to do and generate 1 or two intermediate renders before I go to DVD. I routinely use a high quality intermediate for these steps, as well as to go to VirtualDub. Cineform, Canopus HQ, or one of the lossless codecs like Huffy or PicVideo make good intermediates. ALways stay in your full HD resolution until you resize in VirtualDub. Take a lot of care to not go interlaced when you start in progressive. It happens easily. And read the VirtualDub help file to figure out what resize algorithm to use for your scene.

Bill:
Is there any trial of Edius (Broadcast or Pro) 4.6?
I only see an Edius NEO Trial, but it doesn't support FullHD :(


regards Dennis

Unfortunately, no.
I, initially, worked with the trial version of Edius Pro v4.5.
I believe that's all there is, right now.

The default setup is a bit different from Vegas workflow, but, it can be customized to conform to what you're used to.

http://www.canopus.com/products/EDIUSPro/index.php

Thx, I'll try it. :)


regards Dennis

eehm?
Doesn't Edius support FullHD @25p, too?
There's only 1440x1080 25p or 1920x1080 50i



regards Dennis

yes, it does....but, unfortunately not in the trial version....stupid, but, thats what they do.
edit: there's no 1920x1080 30/60 progressive. Only HD 24fps progressive. Seems odd they don't have HD 25fps progressive.
I asked customer support about this. They are working on it.

HEHE, nice
Realtime Motionblur!


I'm impressed.

they say all their FX are realtime....it IS nice.
took me a while to figure out that if it doesn't playback realtime, you can hit the "render" command and edius will pre-render the timeline.

Check out the color curves FX. You edit in YUV space, which means you can adjust the Luma values without affecting the color space. YUV is native to input streams from HD cams. No color errors from converting to RGB and back.