I have read through all previous post and I am still a little confused. I currently run a dual monitor set up with Vegas 8 (second monitor for my preview window). I used to run a tube tv through a camera via firewire to color correct which worked out ok but a bit of a PITA to connect the camera every time. Now that there seems to be drivers for vegas for the black magic card, is there a better way via hdmi? Are there reasonably priced monitors with HDMI in's? Should I pick up a small HDTV to monitor via HDMI?

I am setting up for HDV this year and trying to figure out the best method. Thanks.

HDV colour space is diff from DV. Using an external monitor via Firewire will cuz some problems. Glenn is the best person to explain the details. All I know is using a secondary calibrated monitor is the most cost effective solution now. Black magic intensity sounds good too but I'm not sure of the colour accuracy. Support of Vegas is really limited.. AJA does have something to go with Vegas.

For some users, you'd want to get a proper HD broadcast monitor. If it's an LCD, I wouldn't bother with anything less than 1920x1080 resolution (unless it's a field monitor). HD broadcast monitors range from ~$4k to $30k+.

Presumably that sort of solution won't make sense for you due to budget + needs.

I'd just get a 1920x1200 computer LCD and use it as the preview device. Computer monitors have some problems compared to a proper broadcast monitor (e.g. won't do interlacing right, colors are likely off, etc.)... but it's your best bet right now.

2- If you are delivering SD, then your best bet is a CRT broadcast monitor. They are around $600+.

They will be more helpful than any computer monitor. They'll show interlacing correctly (important in SD), the colors will be reasonably good, etc. Computer monitors don't do either.

3- For any monitoring in Vegas, you should pay attention to the color space conversions going on.
Sometimes what you see is not what you will get (more so in 32-bit).
http://glennchan.info/articles/vegas/colorspaces/colorspaces.html

At work (disclaimer: I work for Sharp Labs of America), I use a 37-inch Sharp GP1. Frankly the 32-inch model would have been better on a desktop, but I grabbed what we had available. We also recently released the GP3 series, which is available in a variety of colors. For color correction, get the black one.

These are consumer TVs/gaming TVs, so they aren't perfectly calibrated, but they are representative of what people watch these days. And they're 1080p in a small package. The GP-1 has good blacks (I can't stand elevated blacks in LCD TVs.). They're quite dark, if slightly purple at the limit.

http://www.sharpusa.com/products/ModelLanding/0,1058,1834,00.html
http://www.sharpusa.com/products/ModelLanding/0,1058,1964,00.html

So, yeah, I work for Sharp, but I'm honestly happy editing on the GP1.

I suppose, like Glen says, you need to use a monitor that matches your output. If you deliver on SD then a good CRT is what you need and it's cost effective. No point splashing out on fancy HD monitors if you only deliver in SD.

However, I was wondering how that fairs when you record and edit in HD but deliver in SD? What's the best option here? and can you get away with monitoring a SD output? What should I be monitoring? the HD I've shot and am editing, or a SD output as that's what it'll end up being?

In the mean time, I did find a cost effective HD monitor from JVC. You need to buy the optional HD input module, so that makes this a good flexible monitor for those not ready for HD, but requiring good CRT monitoring. I am days away from purchasing a new monitor and this one looks pretty good. It will offer me the option of monitoring both!

http://www.jvcpro.co.uk/item/index_html?item=DT-V100CG

I recently had to do a lot of color correction and ended up taking a small Sharp LCD TV and pluging it into my video card via composite out. My final product was a SD DVD. No mater what I did to calibrate my computer monitor it just looked really different than the final DVD on a regular TV (LCD or tube). The LCD TV out via composite actually pretty closely matched what the final looked like on my TV. I did have to tweek some of the settings but it did a much better job than the computer monitor.

Does this make sense for an inexpensive solution?

In the mean time, I did find a cost effective HD monitor from JVC.

Stuart, have you priced out the optional SDI card?
The monitor (DT-V100CGU) is only $689.95 at B&H (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/394536-REG/JVC_DTV_100CGU_DT_V100CGU_10_Inch_Video_Monitor.html).
However, the SDI card (special order only) is a mere $1,699.95 !!!

For some users, you'd want to get a proper HD broadcast monitor. If it's an LCD, I wouldn't bother with anything less than 1920x1080 resolution (unless it's a field monitor). HD broadcast monitors range from ~$4k to $30k+.

Presumably that sort of solution won't make sense for you due to budget + needs.

I'd just get a 1920x1200 computer LCD and use it as the preview device. Computer monitors have some problems compared to a proper broadcast monitor (e.g. won't do interlacing right, colors are likely off, etc.)... but it's your best bet right now.

2- If you are delivering SD, then your best bet is a CRT broadcast monitor. They are around $600+.

They will be more helpful than any computer monitor. They'll show interlacing correctly (important in SD), the colors will be reasonably good, etc. Computer monitors don't do either.

3- For any monitoring in Vegas, you should pay attention to the color space conversions going on.
Sometimes what you see is not what you will get (more so in 32-bit).
http://glennchan.info/articles/vegas/colorspaces/colorspaces.html


Hey Glenn, on that note, I was doing some screen grabbing the other day. Since the grab looks better on my JVC monitor, is it reasonable to expect that a printout of the same grab will look more like my monitor's representation as opposed to my computer monitor? All things being equal, such as high quality print etc.

Here's a link for a good broadcast JVC monitor at B&H:

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/469731-REG/JVC_DT_V24L1U_DTV24L1U_24_Multi_Format.html

Thanks glen and all who replied. I would love to use my 22" dell lcd for hdv color correction until there is a better alternative. I tried to calibrate last night and the contrast settings are there but unavailable. Is this because I am connected using DVI? I believe it has a component connection also. Should I try this?

I am about to buy a Full HDTV to be (also, as it will have other uses in my office, as well) used as a full display, secondary monitor with Vegas. Have just tried using the secondary DVI output of my ATI X1600XT graphics card - and was disappointed to see that the frame rate of 25fps (8bit 25p HDV project, no FX) goes down considerably when feeding the secondary display! Why is that, and which is a tested solution for obtaining full plaback speed (well, at least the same as Vegas is capable of with just the preview window). Glenn has advised using i.link to analog conversion, but I don't want to use my camera for that. What gives?

Will a newer/faster graphics card help (I doubt it, as Vegas is obviosuly not using GPU hardware acceleration). Any specialized solution that is known to work with Vegas? But please - not anything as expensive as AJA (I'm not capturing anyway)...

That's why I figured the Black Magic card would be able to feed a HDV lcd tv. I also have a 40" Sharp Aquos nearby that I could feed. I know people who in FCP feed HDVtv through the Black Magic card with good results.

But isn't the Intensity's 1080 output interlaced only?

I am about to buy a Full HDTV to be (also, as it will have other uses in my office, as well) used as a full display, secondary monitor with Vegas. Have just tried using the secondary DVI output of my ATI X1600XT graphics card - and was disappointed to see that the frame rate of 25fps (8bit 25p HDV project, no FX) goes down considerably when feeding the secondary display! Why is that?...

It could be that you're running the preview at a higher resolution and/or quality than you were in the preview window. You might also be disk limited, if you are running at a low compression rate.

I've been running mostly uncompressed with a 4-drive RAID-0. It works great for 720p or 1080i, but I would need 8-drives for 1080p in real time. The CPU is almost idle when playing back at full speed.

If you are using compressed signals, the CPU is probably choking. Hi Ctrl-Del and open the Task Manager. You can check your CPU performance there.

Wow Jon, I wasnt aware that there are alr 32" 1080P capable LCD TVs out there! At least we do not have it in Asia yet. Would be nice to check out one of those!

Sean,

You're right. The 37-inch A63 is the smallest 1080p TV that Sharp sells in Singapore right now.

http://www.sharp.com.sg/SharpProducts/products_main.asp

Sharp was the first to push 1080p to the smaller sizes, so it's unlikely that you'll find a 32-inch 1080p model from another manufacturer - but you never know.

Regardless of who makes it, a high-quality 32-inch 1080p LCD-TV with DVI/HDMI is a nice way to go.

One note: on the GP1, I found that I had to connect it using DVI, rather than HDMI. Sharp's 1080p TVs have a dot-by-dot mode that avoids all scaling with 1080 signals. It works fine on the HDMI inputs from an AV product, like a set-top-box or Blu-ray player, but using a DVI to HDMI adapter from a PC didn't work right - the scaling was off by a few percent.

Connecting the PC to the TV using DVI works as it should with no unwanted scaling. And the gamma is still TV-like, rather than PC-like. Use brightness at 0 for full-scale (0-255) signals and set it to -18 for studio (16-235) signals. And you can dim the backlight to taste. It saves power and is more comfortable that way in normal room lighting.

One other tip: let your LCD warm up for about 15-minutes before any serious color correction. CCFL tubes are inefficient when cold. Before they warm up, they consume more power and are a bit dark. The model I use looks good after only a couple of minutes, and it's fully stable after 15 minutes.

There are some off-brand TVs that take *much* longer to stabilize, but these are the exception. (I'm the project leader for an IEC standards effort to measure TV power, so I've seen a lot of data on stabilization times. http://electronics.ihs.com/collections/iec/iec-electrotechnical/articles/)

It could be that you're running the preview at a higher resolution and/or quality than you were in the preview window. You might also be disk limited, if you are running at a low compression rate.

I've been running mostly uncompressed with a 4-drive RAID-0. It works great for 720p or 1080i, but I would need 8-drives for 1080p in real time. The CPU is almost idle when playing back at full speed.

If you are using compressed signals, the CPU is probably choking. Hi Ctrl-Del and open the Task Manager. You can check your CPU performance there.

No Jon, I am trying the exactly same settings on the external monitor as in the preview window (Best/Full). Without the external monitor, I'm getting full 25fps; why does clicking the external monitor icon above the preview window slow it down?

I mean, if my CPU and HDD are capable of full speed playback in the Best/Full preview window, they should be on external monitor, as well!

Stuart, have you priced out the optional SDI card?
The monitor (DT-V100CGU) is only $689.95 at B&H (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/394536-REG/JVC_DTV_100CGU_DT_V100CGU_10_Inch_Video_Monitor.html).
However, the SDI card (special order only) is a mere $1,699.95 !!!

Wow, that's nuts! I did price it up when I looked and the optional input card is just less than the price of the monitor. So nearly half the price of what you've seen! There never seems to be any parity in prices of the same product between countries!

There is also the JVC 17 and 9 inch LCD HD monitors which don't require any input modulations. Ready to go and look impressive. If you are happy with a 9 inch version it's very cost effective.

http://www.jvcpro.co.uk/item/index_html?item=DT-V9L1D

found this one for less than 800 quid, and the 17 incher

http://www.jvcpro.co.uk/item/index_html?item=DT-V17L2D

for just a little bit more. Bargain! Anyone any experience of these monitors?

However, I was wondering how that fairs when you record and edit in HD but deliver in SD? What's the best option here? and can you get away with monitoring a SD output? What should I be monitoring? the HD I've shot and am editing, or a SD output as that's what it'll end up being?

In the mean time, I did find a cost effective HD monitor from JVC. You need to buy the optional HD input module, so that makes this a good flexible monitor for those not ready for HD, but requiring good CRT monitoring. I am days away from purchasing a new monitor and this one looks pretty good. It will offer me the option of monitoring both!

http://www.jvcpro.co.uk/item/index_html?item=DT-V100CG
1- If you are outputting SD, then it'll be good to monitor your final SD video on a SD broadcast monitor.

2- That JVC monitor only accepts SD-SDI I think. It probably won't take a HD-SDI input card (but maybe it will??). I'm not familiar enough with that model to say.

Hey Glenn, on that note, I was doing some screen grabbing the other day. Since the grab looks better on my JVC monitor, is it reasonable to expect that a printout of the same grab will look more like my monitor's representation as opposed to my computer monitor? All things being equal, such as high quality print etc.

Look at it in Photoshop or other image editing application capable of color management. It'll give you the best approximation of what the print will look like.

I tried to calibrate last night and the contrast settings are there but unavailable.
That might be because calibrating the "contrast" doesn't make sense for DVI. The DVI connection is digital so the interface doesn't go out of drift like analog/VGA does.

There are other aspects of the monitor that can be calibrated... but the monitor may not have the ability to do so. (e.g. some calibration schemes use 3-D LUTs to cheat the colors to be more accurate; the monitor can't do those other kinds of calibration)

Thanks for the help Glenn, now can you please pay off my mortgage?

1- If you are outputting SD, then it'll be good to monitor your final SD video on a SD broadcast monitor.

Thanks Glen,

I edit in HD all the way until rendering where it gets downconverted. Will I experience any issues in monitoring HDV colours when it'll end up in SD? I presume my ultimate SD colours will be different if I've been monitoring HDV colours?

Stuart,
So you're monitoring HD but outputting SD? What method are you using to montior HD? (e.g. HD-SDI via an Aja card, Windows secondary display, etc.)

Stuart,
So you're monitoring HD but outputting SD? What method are you using to montior HD? (e.g. HD-SDI via an Aja card, Windows secondary display, etc.)

Up until recently we've only cut SD and used a 9" Sony CRT for monitoring. Now, however, everything we edit in house is shot on and edited in HDV using Vegas. The first HDV project was cut and monitored using just the two 20" LCD displays (split over the 2 screens). The colour correction process was very much 'trial and error' as it was all monitored on the LCD's. Now, I'm just about to install Vegas 8 so I can do all CC and FX work in 32 bit but I need to get our monitoring sorted before doing any CC work! I had a read through your article on colour spaces in Vegas 8 and it's left me with a bit of a headache (not your excellent article!)........

Do we buy something like a Blackmagic Intensity Pro card so we have the option of monitoring on an HD monitor (if and when we get one) or monitor the HDV CC work on an SD crt or the 2nd LCD?

The immediate problem to be solved is that we edit in HDV and output to SD. All monitoring is done on the 2 LCD's before it's downconverted. Do you think this is the wrong way to go about it when considering Vegas colour spaces in floating 32bit?

I'm a bit confused!! Naturally, if we had a stack of cash the answer would be easy!...although how does a colour corrected HDV edit look once downconverted? Do I need to re-colour correct for SD downconversion??

Thanks in advance Glen

Stuart

You can just monitor that in SD, since your final product is SD anyways. What's important is that you also do QC on your final product and make sure it looks right, there's no spelling mistakes, rendering errors, etc. etc.

So you have your HD footage.
You can monitor SD via firewire to your Sony monitor.

When previewing, be careful that you are seeing the right colors. In 8-bit mode, things will be fine.
In 32-bit mode, HDV will decode to computer RGB levels but Vegas' DV codec will want to see studio RGB levels. So the colors will look wrong. You could apply a "computer RGB to studio RGB" color corrector preset on the Video Output FX (though this can be dangerous if you forget to take it out before rendering)... or you can simply grade in an 8-bit project (where the colors will look right) and then flip to 32-bit before you render.


When you render, you should check that you are feeding the encoder with the right levels. The table in my article lists what many codecs expect. In 32-bit, if going from HDV to MPEG2/DVD, then no conversion is necessary.

what about a product like this:

http://spyder.datacolor.com/product-mc-s3pro.php

how well do they work for say doing CC with a LCD?