Hi all,

I've been editing SD on Vegas and am moving to HD work.

I talked to a computer specialist about upgrading my PC and he recommended moving to the mac platform.

Here were his reasons...

1) Windows XP just does not provide the stability and timing that are
critical for digital audio/video. There are also RAM limitations with
the 32-bit versions of Windows XP that will cripple performance.

2) Windows Vista has built-in digital media copy protection schemes that
make HD video editing and mastering a very unreliable process.

3) My clients that at one time were using PCs for digital audio/video have long since converted to Macs; some of them at my recommendation, even though I don't work with Macs. I can tell you that universally they are all much happier after the switch.

I am not a fan of mac but are his explanations valid? Can I stay pc based and still reliably edit HD?

To be quite frank, the first two are just plain nonsense.

Neither Windows or OS X are true realtime. Timer precision has nothing to do with number crunching (which is all video editing is).

Media protection (DRM) has absolutely no effect on anything on Vista whatsoever unless the content is protected in the first place. If the video is from your camera, it is irrelevant.

Stability is more about the hardware than the OS. I have been using XP and Vista on my primary PC for ages, mostly Vista. In the 15 months I have been hammering it (I develop video-related software on it), I have only had *one* system crash and that was due to an old soundcard that wouldn't play with Vista (or XP for that matter). On the other hand, people who buy bargain PCs end up with strife because the hardware is of poor quality and they try to do stupid things like overclocking. If you get a solid, robust PC then Windows will be perfectly capable of serious HD editing.

I'm happy that your friends are happy - but they are ignorant of the reality.

Read the Vegas forum here and you'll see it being used for some amazing projects by pros and amateurs alike.

Thanks John.

I will read through the Vegas forum. I was really dreading the move to a mac and am glad to know that many are editing large HD projects on the pc platform (especially since all of my programs and drives are pc).

Hmm...I think you got some shoddy information.

I have Windows XP MCE on my core2duo laptop, which only has 2gig of ram, and I'm able to edit HDV with not too many problems. I get dropped frames in the preview window unless I lower the quality down, but only when I have motion graphics, text, or compositing layers. Usually Good (auto) fixes it.

If you can get the 64 bit version of XP Pro, I'd recommend it, only because you can do 8GB or ram. You can have vegas open and photoshop and other stuff and not have to worry about your system lagging.

JR

That computer guy was feeding you a load. I question what type of computer specialist he is if he is that far off the mark. Maybe his clients are happier now with Mac's becuase this guy was so bad at building PC systems. Really selling a Mac isn't all that hard. Nobody builds them anymore. They are pretty much a one size fits all system and anything you get from him is the same exact thing you could buy from Apple direct. I kind of laugh when I see Apple system builders because all they really are doing is selling the normal Apple systems and they make it seem like they are making you a nice customized system. Really they are getting paid to have Apple ship the systems to them and then they ship it to you.

I have nothing against Apple at all and a good Mac Pro with FCP is a great system but it is far from the only decent editing system out there. Take Premiere Pro CS3 as an example. It pretty much works the same on apple or PC assuming the hardware specs are the same.

yeah, I've had no problem with any of my PCs for editing. Right now I'm rendering a video(sd) listening to music, and typing on this board. No problems what so ever. Although I am running an intel quad core 2.66ghz and 4 gigs of ram(32bit OS only recognizes 3.2 or gigs though.)

Okay first and for-most I fully agree with everyone in this thread that PC's are capable of editing HD. I did it for a couple of years. With the help of Cineform I might add. I used Premier for a number of years (since 4.0) This last January I switched to FCP and a Mac Pro. Now if FCP ran on a windows machine I would still be running on a windows platform. I built my own PC's and never had any problems (once I got the kinks out) because I always bought high end components for my edit systems.

So now the reason I switched to FCP. I am trying to be a small post house and not a jack of all trades kind of production house. So plain and simple the jobs are not there of an Adobe editor. Look on the job boards for editors I would say that 90% are FCP editor jobs.

I am saying all of this because if you are going to go to a Mac you are going to use FCP. You could use Adobe but then why not just stay with a PC if you are going to do that.

the reason for my switch is I would like to be more marketable and FCP is the editor of choice right now. It is not my first choice but it is the way I had to go. If you are a company that does it all script to screen and you do not need your work to go out to other people then find an NLE that you like and go for it and create. I have always said that most films could be cut with iMovie Or Windows Movie Maker (if they can support the file coming into it) due to the fact that most films are straight cuts which even the lowest end editor can do that right.

late night rant is over now.

i would say if you want to go to mac, well why not ?
there are thousand of people using them for video editing and i think they are happy. Keep in mind it will cost you a lot (money and time), since everything will be purchased again from scratch, hardware, software, and you will need to learn everything from the start.
Macs are not very upgradable, so make sure you take all you need from the start, because there are chances you will stick to the same box for a long time.
Also make sure you got the dual boot installed, so you can continue to use PC stuf in case of emergency.

Also, a current MAC is an Intel PC with an Apple dongle to allow the MAC OS to run and a fixed range of hardware choices!!!! A similarly equipped PC ( hardware and software,no overclock)will be just as reliable and stable. The issue of FCP for work is a valid, standardization within a company as an example, however its the output that counts not the tools used and using a MAC restricts the available software for the creative process.

Ron Evans

1) Windows XP just does not provide the stability and timing that are critical for digital audio/video. There are also RAM limitations with the 32-bit versions of Windows XP that will cripple performance.
Say what???

I edit both HDV (25 Mbps) and DVCPRO-HD (115 Mbps) on an old Dell office computer (3 GHz, 1 GB RAM) without stutter. Go ahead and sue that guy for misleading information!

Mac's are just as upgrade able as any pc. Sure you don't have a million Video cards to choose from but the one you choose is going to work and work well. it also will not conflict with the sound card or your video applications. I have had this problem in the past granted it was a long time ago.

With the switch to the intel chip the mac is even more upgrade able now then ever before. The cost is not any higher then buying a high end PC from a builder. If you do buy an apple buy from them direct but do not buy any upgrades like Hard drives or Memory. That stuff is way over priced. I have the current 8 core and it handles anything that I though at it. I have the base configuration. I bought some Hard Drives and 4 more gigs of Memory. The edit software is actually cheaper then Adobe as well. If you need to upgrade your processors in a few years. Well then you can! Just like a PC you have to make sure you get the right pin set. I can cram 3 1 TB drives inside my tower and have I think it was up to 32 gigs of Ram (that to me is insane) . All of this stuff is bought from a third party vendor. Which saves you money. Okay I find that the Mac has all the creative software that I could possibly need. FCPS2, Adobe production Premium and Maya. What else could you possibly want to run on your machine.

In the end you obviously need to make the choice, but I am very happy with the switch. I do not question it for a second. FCP has a very small learning curve if you worked with Premiere Pro at all.

Just my 2 cents.

Thanks to all for the useful info.

Matthew, do you believe FCP is vastly superior to Vegas or Prem CS3? I believe Avid express is only avail for pc as well.?. I have edited on Vegas without a complaint (I did not really like older versions of Premiere, though)

I do see that everyone in the industry is on the mac/FCP train and have been told that the possible reason is that they started with mac in the early days and written their scripts for that platform so are in essence stuck with mac.

I think both platforms are respectable - I just don't like the expense of mac and the feeling of being stuck to buying from one company (Apple) for a system and components.

Steve

Steve
I would not say that FCP is Vastly superior. I do find that the Mac OS is pretty stable. This set up just what works for me and my goal of being a post house. I hear Vegas is pretty solid I just don't have any experience with it. I have played with Vegas and the interface just was not for me. FCP Seems really solid to me. One thing that I like about FCP is not having to go out and buy a plugin to work with HDV. I edit HDV with out any hassle. I know there are some people out there that are editing Native HDV in Premiere CS3 but I have had little success in doing so when I was editing HDV on my system.

As far as not liking Premiere's older versions I fully agree with you. I almost made the switch just before Premiere Pro came out which gave the editor a lot more creative control in my opinion.

Don't get fooled by the cost of the Mac. It really is the same price as a comparable PC. So go online and put together a price list of a PC of the same specs as the Mac and you will find that the mac is the same price or cheaper by a couple of hundred dollars.

You also do not have to buy from apple for anything. I bought my base system from them which is the entry level Mac Pro and I bought my Hard drives and Memory from a third party vendor at half the cost of what Apple charges. I would put links in the forum to the people I bought my other stuff from but they are not a sponsor so i will not do that.

Matt

I've worked predominantly with Adobe products, but over the last few months I've been working with Final Cut Studio 2 on a dual G5 and the CS3 Production Bundle on my Core2 Duo laptop. FCP was easy enough to pick up the basics, and I must admit that it is quite stable. However, I find the keyboard shortcuts and the general behavior of the different windows to be counter-intuitive and generally annoying. I also find the whole process of getting the final product to a DVD extremely time consuming and cumbersome. DVD Studio Pro has some great looking cookie-cutter menus, but it makes authoring a DVD needlessly complicated and confusing. With Adobe's Suite, I can output directly from Premiere Pro to Encore, and it's Flowchart view makes linking buttons and menus a snap.

I don't think the difference in price is a valid argument either, since Adobe's bundle is so much more complete than Apple's. Adobe gives me Photoshop, which is often needed to tweak graphics or logos or other still images supplied by clients. It also has Ultra, which is a VERY cool chroma-keying application that does a much better job than Premiere or After Effects. Speaking of which, After Effects appears so much more powerful and usable than Motion. Conversely, FCS has Color, which is an excellent Color Corrector. Overall, I'd say that FCS is great for someone that deals strictly with video- but as someone that works in more of a "one man band" kind of operation, Adobe is my one-stop solution for everything.

Now to get back on topic, PCs do just fine editing HD material, anyone telling you otherwise probably doesn't know what they're talking about. John Miller's post is also quite accurate. I know of many instances where people go out to their local big box computer store, drop a few hundred on a low-end PC, and then get all bent out of shape because it can't perform like the $3000 powerhouse at the other end of the aisle. I'm wondering if some of the bias against PCs comes from people not doing adequate research before they spend their hard-earned money!

My two cents...

NO. It is not unwise. Countless people edit HD on PC/WindowsXP with almost zero issue during the lifecyle of the editor station. I'm one of them.

My reason is only budget. I was just giv3n a budget of $3,500 to order and mod two editors. The budget alone killed any Mac dreams. BUT I was able to buy/mod two 1.5TB, 4GB DDR2 800MHz, 2.66GHz Quadcore stations for under that. Very decent video cards, SB XFi audio, nice DVD burners etc... I also have a special slipped-streamed WindowsXP disc that blows the doors off of MS' latest pOS.

Now if I only needed one station, I'd have gone Mac. BUT I'd only use it for production as almost all my programs and games Don't run on Mac...

The PC QuadCore performance, NICE.
I've run only one test so far but I'm super impressed!

CS3 Premiere
7 minute HD timeline with heavy effects and color correction
3 layers of video max

:on my older 2.8Ghz dual core = 17 minutes to render
:on the Quad = 3 minutes to render

There is also the point that no Mac outside of the workstation class Mac Pro can have 4 cores. A 4 core PC like was mentioned above can be built for $1,000.00 to $1,500.00 and this is no joke of a system either. Top quality parts. I have run mine now for 8 months straight without a single restart while editing at least a dozen projects on it. If A Mac Pro is beyond your budget and were looking at a Imac then a 4 core PC will smash a Imac not to mention it has expansion slots to add things like an Intensity Pro card or even a better video card. Try doing that on a IMac. The Mac Pros are awesome if they are in your budget but every other mac below it is a over priced 2 core system. Another example are the laptops. The Mac Book Pro is the only decent one to edit on and it isn't cheap. The Mac Book cannot even run certain FCP porograms due to the lack of a real video card. You can get a lot of decent dual core PC laptops for the price of a Mac Book that do have a true video card.

It also isn't really fair to compare a 8 core FCP system to what most people use for a PC editing system. There are PC people that can edit faster and just as stable on a 2 core PC system as a 8 core FCP system. Not knocking FCP at all but do you know how good a PC NLE runs on a 8 core system. It totally kicks but. Instead of buying a $3,000 Mac Pro which is pretty much a turnkey NLE system you could buy a $3,000 HP system of equal specs and it will be just as good if not better. Why don't more computer people just encourage people to buy good PC workstations for the same cost?

Okay lets hold on a second!!! Stop the train! I did not mean to start another PC / Mac War. Lets get back to the question. Short and simple is it unwise to edit HD on a PC. The simple answer is NO it is not unwise. But DO YOUR HOMEWORK when you buy your hardware!!! just to illustrate a point DO YOUR HOMEWORK when you do buy your hardware!!!

Matt

Ok... I'm staying with my pc (much to my girlfriend's dismay as well as most of the editors in Los Angeles, I'm afraid).

I know FCP can operate on an 8 core system but I also have learned that Vegas cannot even operate on a 4 core.

But, to be quite honest I don't really care if rendering time is a little longer or shorter. I just need a robust system to get the job done (editing HD (up to 4K) shorts and features).

Then the question is what is the best bang for your buck system to get? What brand, sound card, video card etc for a $1000 system?

(also, side note, do I need raid drives?)

Thanks!
Steve

My desktop died back in November, and I ended up replacing it with an HP Pavilion 9060n. It's pack with a Q6600 quad core, 3GB of RAM, and a GeForce 8500GT. It does an excellent job of running both Premire Pro and After Effects at the same time, and I was quite impressed on how it handles 3ds Max 2008. It was marked down at the time and had a $50 rebate, so I think I only spent about $1300 for it. It's little brother, the 9040n, is exactly the same except for it's video card (8400 GS), DVD drive, and overall hard drive size(it's 320GB or 640gb... can't remember which)- but I know that one can be bought for right around $1000.

It's not exactly a xw8400 workstation, but it really packs a punch for a home-based machine that my girlfriend and I can both use.

I know FCP can operate on an 8 core system but I also have learned that Vegas cannot even operate on a 4 core.
Thanks!
Steve

Who told you that? There are a bunch of guys on the Sony Vegas forum getting lightening fast renders from their quad cores. They are reporting renders that are several times faster than real time in fact.

My desktop died back in November, and I ended up replacing it with an HP Pavilion 9060n. It's pack with a Q6600 quad core, 3GB of RAM, and a GeForce 8500GT.


I just bought two HP D4999T models and modded them slightly. I upgraded to more disk space and 4GB ram and a couple other goodies. My only mistake was not paying attention to the big VISTA signs on it. I assumed HP would have XP drivers and DID NOT. So, 3 hours later, I found all the needed XP drivers.

One could say that it's unwise to edit HD on a Mac until DVD Studio Pro has support for Blu-ray authoring, but there are workarounds for that. HD editing works fine for me on a Dell dual-core laptop running Windows XP and Edius Pro 4.

If you're buying a new computer anyway the latest Macs are worth considering because they can also run Windows when you need it. If you already have a computer you like (either Mac or PC) then make the best of it until you really need to upgrade.

One could say that it's unwise to edit HD on a Mac until DVD Studio Pro has support for Blu-ray authoring, but there are workarounds for that. HD editing works fine for me on a Dell dual-core laptop running Windows XP and Edius Pro 4.

If you're buying a new computer anyway the latest Macs are worth considering because they can also run Windows when you need it. If you already have a computer you like (either Mac or PC) then make the best of it until you really need to upgrade.

Why does that first bit make sense? There's loads of authoring tools available on the Mac that can author BD-Rs with the right hardware setup. Nobody says you have to use DVDSP just because it comes with FCPS :)

This forum is a great source of misinformation sometimes...

Why does that first bit make sense?

I was just trying to make the point that Macs aren't perfect either, to balance out the original premise of this discussion. I've gotten several calls from Mac users who are puzzled about how to create a Blu-ray disc, and I've given them the best info I have on that topic for the Mac platform. Apple needs to get their act together for Blu-ray authoring...

I switched to Mac's last year and have never looked back.

I was fed up with having to worry about how my computer was configured. I wanted to buy a computer, put in an I/O card, add a raid array and to edit. I've been building PC for years and they have worked.. after a fashion. The Mac was a revelation. I purchased a 4 core mac-pro, a decklink HD extreme card and threw 3 new sata drives in the slots in the computer. I installed the drivers and software which was simplicity itself. I now have a very capable HD edit suite with just about every flavor of input and output and it's worked perfectly from day 1. That's it, no messing about, it works and works well. No Fuss, no hassle and Mac's are a nice touchy-feely experience. I enjoy switching my mac on.

1 & 2 no and no.
3) generally it tends to be easier to use the same platform as those you collaborate with if you intend to share projects.

IMO it sounds like you are hearing from a Mac fanboy rather than a real tech person. If he were running a business, he'd realize the most cost effective platform that provides a reliable result is the correct platform, even it that answer is an Amiga. It's a business, not a beauty contest.

If you are serious about sharing/exchanging information with outside sources, then use BOTH platforms.

I have a dual G5 and BOXX 7400 under my work bench. Both are KVM'd to a HD Cinema monitor and apple keyboard and a five button mouse.

The keyboard shortcuts were the only issue (the apple keyboard for XP), but after a few weeks I learned them well.

I use cineform on my XP workstation as the primary edit platform. I can happily accept mac based files from outside sources and post encoded to windows format easily.

What makes the Mac advantageous over a PC is that you are limited to a well defined workflow and toolset. Very little deviation allowed for error. However, a PC is a wide open road and prone to issues if not built and configured correctly.

Thanks for the reply Peter.

If you are serious about sharing/exchanging information with outside sources, then use BOTH platforms.

Can't you just use edl's to edit between pc and mac? (I don't know as I've never done this) - Seems that mov, wav, jpeg, etc. etc. is common to both machines.

However, a PC is a wide open road and prone to issues if not built and configured correctly.

What would be a correctly built pc?

Thanks again!
Steve

Steve,
In "simple" terms all pieces of hardware will require drivers to work in a computer environment defining how to make the particular piece of hardware operate in the computer environment, what memory allocation to be used and interrupt level for service from the processor etc. Poorly written driver code or application software, will lead to conflicts with other pieces of hardware that can lead to many symptoms on the PC. To further complicate the issue many motherboards have fixed allocations for these resources to particular slots. Put things in the wrong slots and there may be problems. This was a particular concern for early IEEE1394 capture boards and sound cards both wanting to have the same interrupt level!!!! This required particular boards be place in particular slots on particular motherboards to work at all!!! A lot of these issues have been solved with modern motherboards and bios and are not as problematic as they once were. However just filling up all the slots at random may still give problems. Although I am a PC guy I appreciate the control that the MAC has over these issues by closing the box in some sense. However I prefer the freedom to do my own thing. I have 4 PC's , one for connection to the internet( mail and browsing) just cheap dumb machine with all the virus protection etc, one PC for banking and purchasing on line ( also with virus protection etc), an audio editing PC and video editing PC both running with minimum services and no virus protection and only go to the internet for program updates so they run as fast as possible for the hardware. Most started life as my video editing machine and get rippled down the list!!!!( video editor, audio editor, Internet machine, banking machine( this machine still has a Pentium processor and hasn't been touched for about 6 years does its job just fine so I don't intend to do anything to it) I usually just move the motherboard complete with memory etc when upgrading though sometimes an upgrade to DVD writer will allow the replaced part to move to another machine etc. All these machines run with no problems and have done so for years. All downtime comes when I upgrade and move motherboards around!!!!
Others may answer the EDl question but I think that EDl's will only cover a simple editing protocol not the complexity of NLE specific filters and effects that may be used on a specific platform. To me sharing is putting something on an external hard drive specific to a platform and NLE software and giving it to someone else to carrying on with the task etc.

Ron Evans

Steve, Ron covered the second question with great detail (and most of us have learned this lesson by experience :). Folks whom switch to mac are taking advantage of stability in a trade-off for complete control, and just having a reliable edit station is smart business and use of ones time.

The second caveat is that Macs are expensive. A properly configured PC with quality hardware can cost just as much. (Of course, if you know what your are doing, you can buy parts from tiger direct, built it yourself and save).

To answer your first question, I've never accepted an EDL. I would not half bake a project and hand it over to someone else. I would run off an uncompressed 10bit final for additional work, and likewise receive one.

Affect Effects is the exception. If I hire an outside firm to cut the AE file. I generally just get the entire project and support files on disk. Even if cut on a Mac, it opens and edits fine in windows. I've had to make changes or revisions in this manner. The only issue was having to relink files, but a small task at that.

Sometimes I'll get a PSD or quicktime that is Mac specific -which I need for the PC, or have to write a windows AVI to a QT movie for Mac. Having both platforms makes it easy.

If I had to choose for a single platform, I would opt for a Mac. If I were to go the PC route, I'd get a BOXX workstation. The real issue is not Mac vs. PC, it's the quality of your hardware and build. Period.

But, to be quite honest I don't really care if rendering time is a little longer or shorter. I just need a robust system to get the job done (editing HD (up to 4K) shorts and features).

Then the question is what is the best bang for your buck system to get? What brand, sound card, video card etc for a $1000 system?

(also, side note, do I need raid drives?)

Thanks!
Steve

What exactly are we trying to do here? You should name your requirements, you'll get better advice. No body has yet touched the 4K issue yet here, among the other questions you posted.

I'm not aware of Final Cuts ability to scale up to 4K resolution, and I'm centain Vegas can't even touch any project beyond HDV (unless you buy NeoHD). The cost associated with higher than HD resolutions is astronomical. Add in about $10k for storage, $8k for capture card, $5k for video card and you get the picture. You can do 2k res with CS3, if you're willing to bank the system. Go check out the cineform forums and learn about it.

If you're doing HD work, you absolutely need to buy a raid. This was the first upgrade I made to my SD machine in hopes of going hd. If you're staying PC, Adobe CS3 is way more scalable and compatible with formats, tethered with cineform prospect, than vegas. What ever program you choose, look at their website and pick the hardware that they support. You'll probably end up running a quardroFX vid card for PC. For sound cards I like the M-Audio, as they sound way better than any Sound Blaster card and I haven't found any driver conflicts. For my raid, I went internal (but hot swappable) with a four drive SATA array with a highpoint technologies card.

I hope this helps.

What exactly are we trying to do here? You should name your requirements, you'll get better advice. No body has yet touched the 4K issue yet here, among the other questions you posted.

I'm not aware of Final Cuts ability to scale up to 4K resolution, and I'm centain Vegas can't even touch any project beyond HDV (unless you buy NeoHD). The cost associated with higher than HD resolutions is astronomical. Add in about $10k for storage, $8k for capture card, $5k for video card and you get the picture. You can do 2k res with CS3, if you're willing to bank the system. Go check out the cineform forums and learn about it.
Planning to shoot a short film in mid summer on the Red Camera at 4k.

I know, or to be more precise, I have read that Red has partnered with FCP and that editing 4k is not a problem on that system. I have also tersely ran over the prices of mac vs pc and mac is about 3x more expensive - for what is really hard to say.

So, yes, FCP does edit 4k. What other systems do as well?

I switched to Mac's last year and have never looked back.

I was fed up with having to worry about how my computer was configured. I wanted to buy a computer, put in an I/O card, add a raid array and to edit. I've been building PC for years and they have worked.. after a fashion. The Mac was a revelation. I purchased a 4 core mac-pro, a decklink HD extreme card and threw 3 new sata drives in the slots in the computer. I installed the drivers and software which was simplicity itself. I now have a very capable HD edit suite with just about every flavor of input and output and it's worked perfectly from day 1. That's it, no messing about, it works and works well. No Fuss, no hassle and Mac's are a nice touchy-feely experience. I enjoy switching my mac on.
When you bought a quad core MAC, you basically bought an editing workstation! There is no way you can compare that with PCs you build with parts coming from the four winds...

Buy a factory built Avid or Edius PC workstation and compare THOSE to the MAC - be fair.

Since you mentioned it:http://www.red.com/cameras/workflow

Here is the workflow posted by Red for final cut. To me, their explanation seems a bit over simplified. But yes, FCP definitely isn't editing 4k files, but rather quick time reference movies, outputing to ProRes (which is 10bit 1920x1080 not 12bit 4k raw). There might be a way to conform a final edit with the 4k raw files, and I would really like to read about it.

Right now, if you are looking for an online 4k workflow (and even a lot of hollywood DPs aren't), then you need to look past FCP and onto a discreet box. There are some other high end systems that can online 4k, but I assure you they are out of your budget as a freelancer.

Look at cineforms site (these guys have an online 2K 12bit workflow for CS3) and check out their red one workflow. Do as much research as you can into workflow consideration, FCP might work for you, but you may be kicking your self down the road if you make a snap decission based on what a computer salesperson has said.

Also, I don't get the whole Mac vs PC debate here. For me, they pretty much do the same thing with the same level of complexity (I.E. stability). My current P4 system is the most stable I have ever worked on. Also, we had 12 macbook pros on a sailing video workshop, and everything worked flawlessly, disregarding the fact that one of the escape keys broke off.

When you bought a quad core MAC, you basically bought an editing workstation! There is no way you can compare that with PCs you build with parts coming from the four winds...

Buy a factory built Avid or Edius PC workstation and compare THOSE to the MAC - be fair.

Any desktop Apple (or any manufacturer) can build, you can build yourself stronger, faster, better, and for less money. But you have to know what to buy; you cannot base your decisions on manufacturer claims or regional availability. You also have to be a smart user. I haven't had to run antivirus, anti-spam, firewall, windows update, or any of that junk since 2000 because I don't click on the CLICK HERE NOW!!! e-mail attachments. In turn, my system runs much faster and doesn't crash. Apples are more idiot-proof, but you pay big $$ for that protection.

True words Jad. Even if you purchase a well built and dedicated edit station, you have to resist the temptation to install additional software or mess with the settings. Even something as innocent as allowing automatic updates of any software (and not just the OS anymore), can wreck havoc on what was otherwise a well running system the day before.

If you surf with or use you edit station as the office machine, expect issues down the road.

4K is the current holy grail and has yet to reach the budgets of most freelancers. However, I spoke with a new rep from BOXX, whom was calling around to introduce himself, and he mentioned that some customers were not looking forward to making a switch to Macs in order to work with RED at 4k. So I got the sense that something new must be brewing with BOXX as a PC solution. Even so, if true, it won't be cheap.

4K is the current holy grail and has yet to reach the budgets of most freelancers. However, I spoke with a new rep from BOXX, whom was calling around to introduce himself, and he mentioned that some customers were not looking forward to making a switch to Macs in order to work with RED at 4k. So I got the sense that something new must be brewing with BOXX as a PC solution. Even so, if true, it won't be cheap.
The more I've looked into the Red post workflow the more that camera scares me.

I like that camera for the super 35mm cmos chip and thus the ability to use prime lenses and all that goes with that game.

And, even if I shoot at 4k I'm not all that interested in 4:4:4 "raw" (and I don't think most filmmakers would be at the expense of having unmanageable file sizes.)

The real winner for me would be to obtain compressed 4k files that I could online edit.

Hey Steve,

I'd really look to running Cineform Prospect 2k, which will give you the ability to work with a resolution wich is pretty close to the digital projection standard. On Adobe CS3 of course. Also, just because you shot at 4k raw, doesn't mean you need an online workflow that accept that. Remeber that star wars and Superman were both shot at 1920x1080. If you want to go the Final Cut route, transcode to prores and do your edit that way.

Either way, the red camera is going to provide you with better sharper images than any 35mm adapter will. I wouldn't write off using this camera just yet. The workflows are out there.

Agreed. Don't worry about the camera. There's nothing wrong with having the highest resolution possible at the aquistion level, (many of us purchased HD camera's early on, even if we intended to output to SD). There's so much more you can do with the extra data, and you don't have to be 4k, or even 2k (in terms of SD for instance), throughout the pipeline. I can only emagine that a 4k image, down converted to 2k would be much sharper an original than a 2k aquisition.

Cineform 2k is an ideal tool for visually lossless compression that can be easily handled by todays workstations, has cross platform compatibility without extra license, and a team of dedicated developers whom are constantly improving that tool with almost weekly updates. Frankly, it was the only way I could get anything of HD done in PPro CS2 and CS3.

Read up on their white papers, and give the demo a try.

As far as 4k is concerned just remember that most DIs are still done in 2k. Working effectively with 4k requires massive infrastructure that's beyond desktop capabilities.

I think there is a limitation in FCP as far 4k is concerned but I'm not 100% sure. Color (as in "Color" application) is limited to 2k.

FCP on an 8 core Mac can play back RED camera proxies in 2K. In order to achieve this resolution is dropped on the fly. This is to say that although you can play back 2k files in real time, the quality is degraded somewhat.

This limits VFX usability of such setup.

On the subject of PC vs. Mac workstation, neither machine is inferior. Some high end softwares like Avid DS or Assimilate Scratch run only on PC. But you can't compare an 8 core mac with a DIY windows machine put together out of old parts. Look at the benchmarks for top HP or BOXX machines compared to a top of the line Mac.

Look at the benchmarks for top HP or BOXX machines compared to a top of the line Mac.

Look at the prices too. The HP machine on the same level as the mac pro is way more configurable and thus can become way more expensive than the mac. (Gee, I'll take the dual vid cards, 64gigs of ram, etc.)

Do this, go to both websites (mac and hp), configure similar systems and tell me that pcs cost less than macs. The xw8600 HP machine is about the same hardware for about the same price, designed to do about the same kind of work (maybe more).

.. go to both websites (mac and hp), configure similar systems and tell me that pcs cost less than macs.
I did, and they do. I configured identical, near top of the line systems from both Dell (okay, not HP) and Apple, and the Mac was about $2000 more than the Dell, configured as equally as was possible. Going to a local builder I ended up with a price about $3000 below the Dell, and about half of what the Mac would have cost -- which allowed me to add a huge RAID array.

Depends on the system and what you want to do, I guess.

thats funny, cause the HP is about $1400 more than the mac, and so is the dell that I just priced out, though you have the option of a single processor with the dell and the HP if you like. Are you counting monitors, cause I was pricing out just the box, nothing else. I'm going to put forth more research towards this end. Pricing out similar workstaions it seems that a Mac Pro packs some serious value/performance. I'm up in the air on the whole mac vs pc issue myself, and to be honest, a little annoyed by the whole debate. You really can't compare a Compusa pc with a macpro, not in the same class. Price out similar workstations and compare. (I guess to be fair a turnkey adobe system is about $1500 less than a turnkey final cut system).

I'll also note that I dumped about $2300 into my PC just on storage, memory, a new monitor and an external optical drive, for all you DIYers out there.

You really can't compare a Compusa pc with a macpro, not in the same class. Price out similar workstations and compare.
As I said, I did. The best config I could get that was nearly identical for both on their websites at the time was Dual Xeons (5460?), 4GB RAM, 4x1TB HDD, a decent video card, and the 30" monitor.

Total Price: Mac Pro about $10K, Dell about $8K, Local Builder about $5K. Prices may have changed since a couple of months ago when I was pricing systems.

I have no dog in this fight -- I don't know or care which is "better," but I'm just reporting the facts. I'm sure there are config combinations where the Mac is cheaper than the PC, but I haven't seen them.

problem is you cannot compare 2 machines (even if both are PC) just by the parts.
it would be like considering cars performance just by their parts list.
in PC world i can put the same processore on a 60$ motherboard as well as on a 300$ one. Apple is not better since they are not building any parts you can find in their products, but they reach a high level of quality by merging ideas, hardware and software in a tight way.
This is often problem but also the warranty of a working product.
There is probably a price tag on this.
On the other hand, you can reach the same level for less money with carefully choosen PC Parts and software, but due to the huge choice available (and among it,the large crap found), you really must be experienced in this domain. Usually, it takes me months to fine tune a PC.
Personally i would go for a PC with premiere and cineform, because this domain (hd editing) is currently a changing world and i would feel more confident in a machine that is open for change.

The difficult thing about mac is that a raid card costs $800 while for a HP workstation the comparable raid card is only $19 (how can this actually be true???)

Also, every workstation (that I've seen) is packaged with ECC memory which is much more expensive than non-ECC and usually runs at a slower bus speed (667 vs 800). I'm not sure if ECC memory is even advantageous and may be a negative thing (I've seen what I call hiccups in my editing program after I installed ECC memory in my present computer. I could be wrong about this but I've heard that when the memory checks itself there can be that "hiccup" created in the data flow.

I wish there was a sticky, blog, or website which compared various systems and workstations and described the limits and advantages for the editing world. Anyone seen such a beast?

$19 for them to configure a hardware raid, you don't want this. You want a physical controller separate from you mobo. You should really build this your self, whether you go mac or PC. Funny thing, all of the xeon workstations out there have about the same hardware layout. It all comes down to what apps you'd like to run and the best machine that fits your budget and needs. If you like and know PCs, then stick with vegas or move to premiere and pick your workstation based on that.