Hello,
I'm going to use a Canon XH-A1 to film a 78 minutes narrative and I've decided not to use the on board sound.
I'm just realizing that DAT have become obsolete, so could somebody tell me in what kind of device I should plug in my AT 4071a. I assume now sound is recorded digitally with some hard drives, correct?
By the way, does anybody suggest something better than the AT 4071a or is that more than enough for dialog?
Thanks
Larry

it depends on your budget. no camera can beat a dedicated (good) audio recorder. its preferable to record on a seperate device at 24bit. you have to line up the audio and video using something like a slate, but i can tell you its worth it.

I use the sound devices 702 T , t is for timecode but they have a standard version without timecode, thats when the slate will come in handy.
How much do you wanna spend? Audio is a good investment in general

and oh yeah about your mic question the AT 4071a is a pretty good mic for dialog, but like everything else, the more you pay, the more you get.

I moved up to the sennheiser 416 from the 4071 and its better but its also $400 more. Pointing the mic correctly and recording technique will be the major judge for quality not just the mic used.

Thanks, but instead of the recorder you suggest, what do you think of this one: http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/356881-REG/Edirol_Roland_R4_R_4_4_Channel_Portable.html

Do you think there is a significant different between the AT 4071a and the sennheiser 416 ?

So I guess if I don't have time code, it's like using film, I'll have to use the noise of the slate to synchronize the audio with the video, uh?
ANd if I have time code, how does this work?
Thanks
Larry

Thanks, but instead of the recorder you suggest, what do you think of this one: http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/356881-REG/Edirol_Roland_R4_R_4_4_Channel_Portable.html

Do you think there is a significant different between the AT 4071a and the sennheiser 416 ?

So I guess if I don't have time code, it's like using film, I'll have to use the noise of the slate to synchronize the audio with the video, uh?
ANd if I have time code, how does this work?
Thanks
Larry

Your camera doesn't have timecode I/O so having a recorder with timecode won't accomplish much for you. If you're purchasing a recorder it would be nice to have the ability for future projects where you might be working with a different camera but for right now it won't make much difference. One of the nice things about the Tascam is that it will sync its sample clock to incoming video blackburst so you won't have as much sync drift but that's only marginally related to timecode.

There's nothing wrong with the 4071a. The Senn 416 might be 'better' but most of the observable differences between the two are more due to the fact they are different types of mic than anything else. The 416 is a short shotgun while the 4071a is a long shotgun. As I mentioned to you on the other board, neither one would be the best choice if you're shooting interiors in a normal residential or office space. That's why the pros bring an assortment of mics to the job whose total cost is about the same as the price of a midrange new car - the best mic for the job all depends on the exact situation for the scene.

Hello,
I'm going to use a Canon XH-A1 to film a 78 minutes narrative and I've decided not to use the on board sound...

What type of scenarios will you be recording? Inside, outside, noisy, controlled, groups of people, sit down interviews, live events, etc...

How many separate tracks do you need? Just boom? Two booms & Lavs?

Do you have a good soundman & Boom operator?

What type of scenarios will you be recording? Inside, outside, noisy, controlled, groups of people, sit down interviews, live events, etc...

>>>>>mainly inside, not noisy, conversation among people, 7 at a time

How many separate tracks do you need? Just boom? Two booms & Lavs?
I could have two booms, I guess

Do you have a good soundman & Boom operator?
No.

So Steve, and the others who have been nice to help me, here's my option

The tascam mentioned at the link below, + one AT4071a for outside shots and the 4073 for inside shots.

FWIW, even if the camera doesnt have TC I/O you can set both to record rec and eyeball them up. should be within 1-2 secs of each other once you get the hang of it. good if for nothing else then to ensure that you have the right sound take with the right picture.

you can also run TC out from the recorder to the cameras CH2 in. FCP has a plugin in available for about $120 that will let you read TC from an audio track. then you have matched TC between the two. the big thing here is keep the TC level as low as possible and have it still be reliable. -30db should be good, TEST BEFORE committing to a level.

as for CH1, its always good to record audio onto the camera. its free. it can be an invaluable reference when syncing in post, and its backup. ideally run a hardwire from the mixer to the camera, but even a cheap wireless hop will do if its a backup reference. even just running the camera's stock onboard mic is good for reference. having this can save a LOT of cussing when you dont' have TC, and no one updated the visual slate, and didn't call the take... it happens.

however, if you are doing a lot of interior work getting a cardiod or hyper cardiod mic will be preferable over a shotgun. if you are on a budget, the AKG blueline + hypercardiod sounds really nice for around $400. you'll get less room slap. of course there are steps up from there - the MKH8040 and CMC641, but for a budget production, the AKG may be your best bet. save the shotgun for outside.

Do I mount the AKG blueline + hypercardiod on a boom pole?

Also, is there a big difference from recording sound from the camera, a Canon XH-A1 and a Tascam? For simple dialogue in a house? In all cases the boom will be very close to the actors!

Do I mount the AKG blueline + hypercardiod on a boom pole?

Also, is there a big difference from recording sound from the camera, a Canon XH-A1 and a Tascam? For simple dialogue in a house? In all cases the boom will be very close to the actors!

Yep, the mic goes into a shock mount on your boom pole. NEVER try to use an on-camera mic to record dialog. You get what I call miraculus results - if you can use it, it's a miracle <grin>.

The mic technique would be the same regardless of whether you're recording direct to camera or to a separate recorder. Think about how you're going to control levels during the take - a mixer would be a good idea if you record to the camera and a convenience if recording to a separate recorder.

...Also, is there a big difference from recording sound from the camera, a Canon XH-A1 and a Tascam? For simple dialogue in a house? In all cases the boom will be very close to the actors!

IMHO, the best way to improve the recording is having a great MIC for the situation and having a good operator. Once you have that nailed down, the next upgrade would be to go to an external recorder w/ high quality 24 resolution.

The logical progression, IMO...is to
1) Get great sounding mics
2) Send the mic signal through a high quality mixer w/ solid Mic Pre's (like SD 302) going line level to camera and external recorder.
3) Hire a competent sound person w/ experience, good ears, and has an attention for detail.
4) The next step in quality upgrade is adding a quality multitrack 24 bit external recorder. This step does add alot more work to the overall production. Many lower budget films get hung up on the 24 bit pathway and are not prepared to the extra sync time in post and the organization that it takes to make it work.


IMO, the first three steps are much more important and 24 bit recording would be gravy for a dialogue centered piece of work.

If it's a serious and professional job then go with option 3 above and let him look after all 4 stages...

Thanks to all of you.
Jim and Jimmy, what is your idea of great sounding mics, for dialogue?

Thanks to all of you.
Jim and Jimmy, what is your idea of great sounding mics, for dialogue?

Bethesda! I used to work in radio in Bethesda; WHFS.

Larry, the Roland piece is not really a field hardy recorder.

Seven people in a room with one boom mic? Well if you're a magician or mind reader and know who's going to talk next, yes.

Secondly, how are you going to catch the comments of seven people on one camera?

Before you got out and spend money on gear for this shoot, you better know what you're really up against.

Please explain in as much detail as possible about the shoot.

Regards,

Ty Ford

I use a Fostex FR2 LE with my XH A1.

The sound quality is good.

With an 8gb card and big battery it will run all day on one charge at 48k 24 bit.

I got quite good results taping two DPA 4061s to the window as stereo boundary mics. Picked up five people in a room very well.

Syncing to camera isn't usually too difficult. In the NLE I find some spikes that match, line them up and adjust until the echo disappears. It helps if you can clap your hands at suitable points on the recording.

Ty Ford,

It's going to be a scene in which only two people will be talking at the same time, so once I have an establishing shot of the table, I'll film the scene by getting only the two people talking. No big deal here. I know exactly how to film this scene, I'm just wondering about the quality of compressed audio coming out of a HDV cam compared to a seperate recorder
Thanks

Hello Larry,

Two thoughts.

1. Your shotgun is not the mic to use. For normal interiors you don't want an interference tube mic. The Audix scx-1 with hypercardioid capsule, Audio Technica 4053a and Schoeps cmc641 -- from low to high, in that order, will sound a lot better than your shotgun.

You don't talk about the acoustics of the space, but there's a world of difference between audio captured in a hard-surfaced kitchen and a comfy den.

2. You say two people talking at the same time. I'm thinking you probably don't mean that unless this is some sort of special situation. Normally people talk sequentially. If these people are close enough to each other, then you can get the best audio with a boom and operator who knows how to follow dialog.

If the talent is farther apart, two locked down booms will will work if the talent doesn't move. In a dramatic scene, this is not likely. In any case, be careful of head turns or looks to the floor while lines are given.

If there's a lot of motion -- too much for a good boom person to stay with, you have to go to lavs, each to a separate track, then combine in post.

As to the HDV audio issue; I'm an audio guy, first. 384 kbps mpeg stereo audio grinds my grits. Why, when the baseline for audio quality for digital audio has been 24-bit, 48 or 96 kHz sample rate PCM for quite a while now, the committee thought mpeg audio at 1/5 the rate of even 16-bit 44.1 kHz was a good idea is a travesty to me.

Yes, there will be a difference if you double record. When you (well me anyway) hear well recorded 24-bit audio captured well, I can hear the power, detail, and texture. Get the latest Pirates of the Carribbean film and listen to the interior dialog with a really good set of headphones. Very sweet. Mpeg audio loses that.

The difference will be mitigated by the audio gear you use and how you use it. If it's not going up for an academy award, and you pay very close attention to the audio, ::sigh::, you'll probably be OK. What's important is that you know there's better. As always, I encourage you to make it sound as good as possible.

Regards,

Ty Ford

Ty, I've just noticed you're in Baltimore, so we're about 30 minutes away.
The group of people I'm talking about is a meal scene. Talent will be seated and I was thinking of a boom looked up, above the table.
Hey, if you have your weekends free can I hire you?
6 weekends starting end of APril? What do you need as far as fee?

Hello Larry,

I think I do have weekends at the end of April open. Please contact me off group.

Regards,

Ty Ford
tyreeford@comcast.net