Just completed my first DVD- I encoded in Procoder @ 8000kbs CBR, yet when there is fast motion or a fast pan the image stutter or flickers. What could be the problem?

For encoding to DVD, the field order needs to be set at upper field first or else you will get horrible sutter like you describe.

Been there :)

John.

Oh man!...you've gotta be kidding me. I specifically made sure it was lower fields first to match my source.

Does anyone know why DV is lower fields first and DVD has to be switched to upper fields first?

John, I hope your right- I can't wait to get home and re-encode a small section to see how it works!

Hi Glen,

I did know why DV and DVD are different but the reason escapes me at the moment, I'm sure it'll come back to me, but if you specified Lower first then that is definately your problem. Let us know how you get on when you change it to upper I'm sure you'll be much happier :)

John.

Well I didn't really "specify" lower-fields first, it defaults to it.
Btw, I'm using Procoder, and used the standard NTSC MPG2 DVD template. The only other change was upping the bitrate from 6000 to 8000.

I make a lot of action videos and have been making DVDs for six months.

I have never encountered the strobing effect you are talking about.

I use Main Concept encoding and it is lower field first.

Ugh- thanks for ruining my hopes Ron. ;)
I dunno I'll have to search around on the net for more info- I'm getting conflicting stories.
The true test will be when I get a chance to actually encode some samples out to a DVD to see the results.

Sorry to be a downer.

The difference may be in the two programs we are using it very well could be that with your encoder it needs to be upper field.

When I read your post I had to check what I was doing and I can confirm that my encoding is in lower field first with no problems.

Well I tried it tonight- I switched the field order to top fields first- NO LUCK. :(

UGH- I'm so discouraged. I was so excited because this was my first wedding in which I was delivering the finished product on DVD. I don't know what I'm gonna do, what else can I try?! I'm gonna waste yet another DVD and encode a clip that shows the flickering/stuttering really bad like 10 times and keep changing the settings....place all the clips on a menu and just go to town with the dvd clicking all the clips encoded with variable settings to see which ones made a difference and which ones didn't. If that doesn't work- I don't know what I'm gonna do. AHHHH! Someone help!

Ron what NLE are you using- Vegas? I ask because Vegas has a built in MainConcept encoder. Maybe I'll try and re-encode through Vegas.

Hey, I'm using the Ligos mpeg encoder with a variable bitrate, maxium set at 7500 and average set at 6000 and I am fairly sure that I do lower fields first, I would have to check but I dont remember changing it to upper fields. Using this system I dont recall any flickers and was ironically quite impressed with the quality of the output on DVD.

Brian

Do you have any fast pans....I mainly see it in pans or subjects that are moving quickly in or thru the frame.

DOH! I was 99% sure that was your problem, I've encountered it so many times over with people over the last couple of years. Oh well if I can think of anything else I'll let you know.

John.

Yes, I have fast pans, truck, dolly and swish shots.

Glen, didn’t I read that you have used Adobe Premiere if you have the new version with encoding you could try encoding your finished project with Main Concept.

Just make sure you go to their web site for the update.

Or you could download a trial version to try.

What DVD authoring program are you using?

I'm using Canopus Procoder. If I re-encode with the Mainc Concept encoder via Vegas 4.0...is there a way to actually update the encoder...or is that included in Vegas updates (ie 4.0b, and 4.0c)

Does anyone else know what I can try to fix this problem- I'm grasping straws here!

Hi Glen.

The field order issue starts with your capture card, meaning, if it uses i.e. upper field first, you have to maintain that throughout the process. So, first check on your capture card's web site for that info.

Since you say that you enconter the problem with upper or lower field first, and you mentioned stuter, maybe it's another issue; and that can be the fact that you are using CBR at 8000Kbs.

Try setting your encoder to the default DVD settings (GOP structure and all the rest) changing only the bit rate to 7000Kbs or lower. Yes, you will loose quality, but if it works, it will be a starting point to begin. Some set top players will choke with high bit rates and start to stutter.

Other issues to consider are what type of media are you using (elcheapo or Brand Name) and labels sticked on DVDs wich can give you a hard time. I'v been there, you have to be very patiente and I suggest you follow this steps to narrow the causes:

1 - Use a short clip for test purposes.
2 - Encode in default DVD settings with 7000Mbs max.
3 - Use well known brand name blank DVDs.
4 - If the set top player supports DVD-RW, use that for the tests.
5 - Don't stick labels for the time beeing.

The program you use to author your DVDs plays an important part in the process. Wich one are you using?

Good luck and best regards
Arnaldo

1- Yes, that's what I've been doing- and been specifically using a section that shows the stuttering really bad.

2- Tried that as well, used all default settings- but changed the bit-rate to 7000. Same results, the picture still was jittery.

3- As far as media I use Sony DVD-Rs

4- Good idea about using RW media, never even thought of that. Could have saved myself from wasting several discs at this point.

5- I never use labels. Only on CDs or VCDs NEVER on DVDs.

As far as authoring programs I'm using both Sonic MyDVD and Sonic DVDit. Both yeilded the same results.

I have about 10 versions of the same clip encoded with various settings including changes in field order, bit rate, vbr/cbr/2-pass vbr, GOP adjustments, and some "DC" setting that goes from 8 to 10 that's supposed to be good for "complicated footage" ...somehting to do with the bits assigned to the footage (I dunno) it's in the advanced section of Procoder. I'm gonna burn all these clips to a new disc and label each link carefully and just click away and see which ones if any play any better. I really don't know what else to do at this point.

All your help is greatly appreciated.

Glen when you play the clips in DVDit doses the stutter take place or doses it just take place when you have burned it to DVD?

Hi.

You are now experiencing what I'v come across in DVD world: Many hours of frustration until I got it right.

If you'r planning on doing professional work (and getting paid for that) and if you have the money to invest, I can tell you what system to assemble and how it is done, based on what I use.

Meanwile, give some more info so I can try to help you:
(Sorry if some of this is to obvious)

1 - Are we talking DV or analog video?
2 - The stutter shows on your NLE or only in DVD?
3 - Playing the DVD in your PC DVD drive and on the set top player shows the same problems?
4 - Have you tried playing the DVD in different set top players?

Bye
Arnaldo

<<<-- Originally posted by Arnaldo Paixao : Hi.

You are now experiencing what I'v come across in DVD world: Many hours of frustration until I got it right.

If you'r planning on doing professional work (and getting paid for that) and if you have the money to invest, I can tell you what system to assemble and how it is done, based on what I use.

Meanwile, give some more info so I can try to help you:
(Sorry if some of this is to obvious)

1 - Are we talking DV or analog video?
DV
2 - The stutter shows on your NLE or only in DVD?
Only on DVD
3 - Playing the DVD in your PC DVD drive and on the set top player shows the same problems?
Plays fine in my computer. Exibits the jerky motion when played on a stand-alone player on the TV. I'm assuming because computer monitors are progressive displays. So that would lead me to think it's a field issue.
4 - Have you tried playing the DVD in different set top players?
I've tried it in 2 different players- both Sony. One was an older model like 3-4 years old and another is a new Progressive Scan model. Both had the same results.

Bye
Arnaldo -->>>

How about deinterlacing the footage on the time line and then exporting out using your MPEG encoder?

Try it on a small piece with a pan and let us know

Just a thought,

Ed Smith

I made a test disc tonight of about 12 versions of the same short clip with different settings applied to them. I specifically chose a clip that showed the jerkyness of the video. The changes I made from one version of the file to the next included: choosing upper and lower fields, changing encoding qualities, changing bit rate, changing bit rate type (cbr, vbr), changed GOP settings, etc. ALL played exactly the same accept for ONE clip! The one clip I ran a Procoder filter on, called "adaptive deinterlace". Granted it wasn't perfect but noticably better than before. Mabye I'll try choosing "none" in the field type. Will that have any adverse effect on my footage beings it IS interlaced to begin with?!

Hi Glen.

Have'nt given up on you yet!

To be dead shure that it is not a field order issue and assuming you'r using Premiere (if you use another program try to find out how it is done), go to project settings and check that your video FILE, your PROJECT and your EXPORT settings all have the same field order. You must be shure of this before you look for other reasons.
It's those tiny bity details that can drive you crazy...

Good luck and keep us posted.
Arnaldo

And it is due to using 8000 CBR! My set top player can not handle it through out. As soon as I backed down about it went away. The only prblem is the quality hit you take. And if you do stuff with a lot of titles and text you will see the quality hit there, big time.

I wish there was some sort of guidlines out there. For instance:

Lenghth of video Motion Text Bit rate
60 min High Yes 6500 vbr


Something like that.

Nope because I ran the same clip @ 6000 and it played exactly the same as 8000. Though I'll take heed in the future setting such a high bitrate @ CBR. I don't want to make a DVD that a clients old DVD player can't handle.

HI. using Dvdit. when I have problems that are similar. I use VBR and make the dvd to disk folder. then I burn the dvd as data. ie the audio and video folders. Just a shot in the dark really. By the way, sometimes DVDit gives false previews but they go when the DvD is made.

DVDit gives false previews? Not sure what you mean. The MPG2 looks fine when played on the pc, it only shows it while played back on the television.

I just got my copy of Vegas+DVD so mabye I'll try rendering and authoring it with this- though I'm a fish out of water with DVD Architec....I'll have to learn swiftly.

In the meantime there are a few other things I can try beings the "adaptive interlace" filter seemed to improve the ghosting/flickering of the pans dramatically. I'm also going to try and burn a few using "none" as the field order just to see what happens.

when I say false previews, what I should have said is that sometimes the sound and video are out of sync in DVDit preview mode. sorry.
Look, if you want to email me about 10 or 20 secs of your video I will try it on my system for you and burn a DVD and let you know the results....

The problem is undoubtedly related to the field order, but it might not be at the MPEG encoding end.

I assume you captured originally on DV and then imported. Make sure lower field order is selected then. What video software are you using? With Vegas, I've found that you must specify blend fields as the deinterlacing method all the time, even for interlaced footage, so make sure that's set.

Then when you encode to MPEG2, make sure the field orders once again match.

Worse comes to worst, you can always make the video progressive by deinterlacing.

Roy I might actually take you up on that offer- though keep in mind it'll be NTSC DV AVI, not PAL. Let me know if it's still ok and I'll send it to you Sunday night when I get home (writing on here from my gf's computer).

Peter, I haven't used Vegas for capturing or extensive editing yet I just got the retail version a day or so ago. The project I'm having problems with was capture via Premiere thru my Pinnacle DV500 card- and I did double check to make sure lower fields first was set throughout my workflow....which it was.

Ok, when you export in premier, check the settings carefully, specifically keyframe and rendering. Make sure the fields are set to lower fields first there as well if you haven't already. Also under Special, make sure Deinterlace is off. This is when you select File | Export Movie and click on settings next to the file type.

You might also right clip on your clips, click advanced, and click Interpret Footage to make sure everything there is kosher as well.

That's about all I can think of right now.

Glen, I'm also using a DV500 and if I were you I'd be exporting as a pinnalce MP2 file from within premiere thats all I do, I never use any other encoder. From drivers 4.0+ the DV500 can encode Mpeg almost in realtime which is a lot faster than most of the software encoders out there at the moment. Try exporting as pinnacle MP2 using upper field first(Trust me on this one) and burn from there, the quality of the Pinnacle export really is excellent.

John.

Yep I even checked in the setting viewer to make sure all the settings have continuity througout- which they do (ie Lower fields first throught).

I'm gonna do one last test DVD using that "adaptive de-interlace" filter on Procoder, and setting fields to "none"...I'll do this both in upper fields and lower fields first just to see which comes out better.

As a rule, however, what should your target MPG2 be if your encoding DV which is lower-fields first?

Glen I am quite fortunate in many ways as I work in a computer shop and therefor have unlimited machines to use and I have both pal and ntsc setups in my little back room.... send it and I'll see what I can do... ps. I use the matrox 2000 but in this case that dosn't matter does it. Roy

I've always used lower fields first and it's never a problem, either on a progressive TV or a normal interlaced TV, all looks good.

Glen as I said above if you're using a DV500 why are you not using the DV500 hardware MPEG2 encoder. From premiere export timeline the select filetype as Pinnacle MP2 it'll encode almost realtime and the quality is great. Please try it I'm sure it'll work and you'll feel much better, but when outputting using pinncale it MUST be upper field first.

John.

PS. Meant to say to get the turboMpeg export using the DV500 you need to be on driver version 4 or above.

I had a similar problem after importing a Canopus reference avi into VV4. After Rendering As a MainConcept MPEG2 I found that all movement was strobe like. Very unpleasant.

What worked for me was to convert the reference avi into a type2 avi & then importing that into VV4. No more jitters/strobe.

Hope it works for you :-).

If you had an invalid field order somewhere in the chain you should
have also seen this on your computer. If you do a de-interlace
you must set the field order to none indeed.

How about setting the field order to none in the encoder without de-interlacing the footage?

The NTSC DVD standard requires the MPEG 2 video to be interlaced. Even "24p" DVDs are technically interlaced, they just are encoded in a way so that a player knows how to do the pulldown perfectly. So I don't think setting field order to none will ever work; the DVD authoring software will reject it or reencode it.

"If you had an invalid field order somewhere in the chain you should have also seen this on your computer."

Not necessarily, I don't think. Sometimes codecs will not properly show any interlaced footage regardless of the field order, and so then the user won't know whether the problem is just because the codec doesn't know how to show interlaced footage or because the footage is improperly ordered.

I know Glen you said you double checked all your field orders, but I am still 100% sure that's where the culprit is. Let me ask you some specific questions:

1) The footage itself, what camera is it from and what was the recording mode (i.e. Canon cameras have a frame / progressive mode)?

2) How do you intend the video should look ultimately (30p or 60i)?

It's fixed!

Finally after doing extensive tests encoding the same clip many times over using different settings I finally did something I should have done in the beginning...tried another encoder. I tried the built in Pinnacle MP2 (for my DV500) encoder, and the Main Concept encoder via Vegas 4.0. Both encoders yielded perfect clips on DVD, no stutter, no flicker, no ghosting, nothing- crystal clear.
I even noticed the video quality looked better even in areas that hadn't given me problems before. I didn't know what clarity I was missing.
Granted it's not drastic but noticable- the thing that is drastic is the lack of the flickering during fast movement.

Apparently it had something to do with Procoder, even when not touching any settings and using it's default MPG2 DVD NTSC template. I'm just glad after a week of pining over this problem it's finally fixed. It's ashame I never found out WHY Procoder was doing this to me....it's supposed to be one of the top encoders. Oh well- I'll stick with Pinnacles MP2 encoder for Premiere projects and Main Concept for Vegas projects.

Thanks goes out to all you guys that took the time to give me insight into helping me alleviate this problem. I'm greatly appreciative- and it's people like you who make this forum so great...thanks!

"Thanks goes out to all you guys that took the time to give me insight into helping me alleviate this problem. I'm greatly appreciative- and it's people like you who make this forum so great...thanks!"

And people like you, who tell us when they reach a conclusion.
It's a bit destressing when you try to help a fellow, and he does'nt bother to tell when and why the problem is solved.

Best regards
Arnaldo

Oh I always post a conclusion- that way in the future if any members are having the same problem they can do a search and find a thread that'll have closure rather than speculation.

Then again in this instance there still lies speculation. Granted I could go back and plug away at Procoder and maybe eventually find a solution- but my workflow is switching drastically with my next wedding project. I'm moving to Vegas+DVD and it'd be couter-productive to try and frame-serve my timeline to Procoder when I can keep the workflow within the same program. I've found Main Concept's encoder to be pretty effective. I'll use Procoder when I have to do MPG1 clips, it's speed is incredible. Then again anything is fast compared to Cleaner....ugh, the same project that took 2 hours in Procoder to encode to MPG1, took litterally 12 hours in Cleaner!

Your welcome Glen I am glad I could help.

Now get out there and make some DVDs.

Starting the encode in a few minutes, as I step out to go to the gym. Wooo Hooo! Wish I lived closer Ron- I'd love to train with you sometime. We gotta roll on the mat sometime and see how your submission is- Just gotta watch your kicks when I close for the clinch. ;) *joke*

Cleaner is one of the worst products for the PC in my opinion.
It includes a lot of garbage and it wouldn't even work on my XP
machine.

That is funny Glen but in the fight game you don’t get to start at the top. You will have to work your way up maybe you should start with a local tournament or something.

PS I charge a hundred dollars an hour for private lessons and because of time restraints I limit my self to no more that ten private students. I am booked right now but maybe one of my assistants could find some time to work with you.