I've had my Canon XH-A1 for a few months now (my experience level is about one notch above newbie) and I'm interested in capturing the most neutral and accurate footage possible.

I've also been following the 'TrueColor configuration for XH A1' thread and I'm currently using Paolos' recommended preset.

Could someone please explain to me what their routines are for setting proper white balance and exposure for this camera?

Is there a recommended white balance and/or exposure card?

I checked out a PhotoVision product http://www.photovisionvideo.com/store/shop.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Category_Code=DCT

but I'm unsure if this product works for video and I'm still unclear if, and how, I can use the 18% gray panel.

Little help? Lotsa help?

By the way, I am stunned at how helpful and professional people are on this forum. I have already learned a lot.

Thank you in advance!

Hi Alain,

All I do to white balance is do what is described in the Canon manual: hold a sheet of white of white paper (make sure it's white and not "off white"!) towards the camera in the light you'll be shooting, and hold down the white balance button until it stops flashing. It works fine for me. I asked a news cameraman about using charts and he just laughed and said sure, you can, but for 99% of his shooting there was just no need to. That was good enough for me.

For exposure, you can turn on the zebra bars so they're visible on the flip out LCD screen (zebra bars are diagonal lines that appear on your screen wherever the camera's exposure meter determines a part of the footage is over exposed). If you're shooting in manual mode (or aperture priority) you then adjust the aperture (iris ring on the lens) until the zebra bars diminish/go. This just takes a bit of practice and you should review your footage to see the results. Pretty quickly you'll work out how much overexposure you are happy with (or not!). In my experience, especially filming outside, it's not unusual to have some part of the footage overexposed--to get absolutely no over exposure, the rest of your footage may be too dark, so having a small amount of overexposure (eg a part of someone's hair; or some leaves on a part of the tree) may be the lesser of 2 evils.

Trust this helps.

I use the white foam board that you can pick up at any school/office supplies store. It also works great for bouncing light too.

They can be had for about 89 cents each.

Is there a recommended white balance and/or exposure card?

I checked out a PhotoVision product http://www.photovisionvideo.com/store/shop.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Category_Code=DCT

but I'm unsure if this product works for video and I'm still unclear if, and how, I can use the 18% gray panel.

Little help? Lotsa help?

By the way, I am stunned at how helpful and professional people are on this forum. I have already learned a lot.

Thank you in advance!


While I have no experience with this particular product that you linked to, I can say that I have used a standard 18% photo gray card before and it works great. I just bought one from the local camera store for about $5.
Well worth it, especially on the critical stuff for clients. Before every important shoot, I would recommend turning off the AWB, and setting WB manually, especially indoors. I would use the photo gray card 1st, but white foam board is OK, too.

Nothing against those folks using a plain sheet of white paper, but in my experience there's too much variation in "white" among different types and weights of paper. So I use a CamWhite chart from DSC Labs (http://www.dsclabs.com/) -- mine is part of their CamBook spiral-bound chart package which has their white card, greyscale, multiburst, backfocus and color chart in one 30cm x 20cm book: http://www.dsclabs.com/cambook.htm

I have been using a device that fits like a filter on the front of your lens called a expodisc, it is the neetest filter and gives you accurate white balance every time becasue it is reading the actual light through the lens and not different varations of white or grey. There is a couple videos on the expodisc web site that will give you more insight to this wonderful tool. http://www.expodisc.com/?gclid=CO2lm4i7s5ICFRzHIgodH24wNg I use it on my video camera and my Canon 20D...

I second that Jeff.

Cheers.

Normal office copy paper is good enough in an emegency (I have even balanced from a white wall sometimes), but high grade photo printing paper is just about the whitest thing we all have laying around at home or office, besides styrofoam reflectors, of course. Back it up with some cardboard and you are all set. Bigger white card is better than a small one, as the card must fill the whole frame.

It is easy and cheap to also print a series of "warm cards" from those photo papers. Just add a tiny bit of blue, and you have cards giving you nice warm effects. Much cheaper than store bought.

Well that's right too, and if you shoot a wedding wear a white shirt and balance off the sleeve. The single women go nuts.

Cheers.

Well that's right too, and if you shoot a wedding wear a white shirt and balance off the sleeve. The single women go nuts.

Cheers.

I keep a warm card under my kilt for that effect.

Only kidding!

Thanks so much for your replies.

My apologies, I wasn't as specific as I should have been. I use the zebra (mine is set to 100 ire) and I always manually WB.

What I wanted to know was, is there any difference between just white balancing on a sheet of white paper or using a pre-made chart? I suspect, and this thread seems to confirm, that not all white sheets are created equal.

1 - Is there an industry standard 'white' for the purposes of white balancing? - Here I am referring specifically to the hue of white itself here, not a product.

2 - If yes, is there a product known to offer this specific hue of white?

3 - These 18% gray scale charts. What are they for and how do you use them?

My goal is to try and capture the most neutral, real, and natural footage I can in order to give myself more options in post.

Thanks again to everyone.

try this site


http://www.apogeephoto.com/mag2-6/mag2-9st_1.shtml

Alain,

I have noted differences in gray cards between different brands, and I'm sure that white cards are o different. I have a nice plastic gray card from calumet that is the most neutral I have, but I also have a Kodak cardboard gray card that is about 10CC magenta. Not noticeable, unless the 2 are side by side. But a real difference.
That expodisc looks pretty good--reading the ambient instead of the reflected should give better results.

Alain,

I have noted differences in gray cards between different brands, and I'm sure that white cards are o different. I have a nice plastic gray card from calumet that is the most neutral I have, but I also have a Kodak cardboard gray card that is about 10CC magenta. Not noticeable, unless the 2 are side by side. But a real difference.
That expodisc looks pretty good--reading the ambient instead of the reflected should give better results.

I have just ordered an expodisc for my XHA1 some very good reviews and will let you know how it performs after I have used it

Alan

When you order an Expodisc for the A1, IMO get the 82mm. With step-down rings it'll cover your other lens. Check you're ordering the correct one, there are warm ones available, as I found out too late.

Cheers.

I actually thought that grey was the best colour for white balance unless you want to use warm / cool cards?

Jon

Now I'm confused. I may be incorrect, but I thought Gray was for exposure readings (Amount of light) and White was for White Balance (Color Temp).

Here is part of the Wikipedia def, of gray card :
"In addition to providing a means for measuring exposure, a gray card provides a reference for white balance. White balance, or color balance, refers to the setting that the camera uses to compensate for the illuminant color in the scene. Gray cards are useful for white balance since their reflectance is not as intense as that of a white object, which reduces the possibility of clipping, or exceeding the maximum possible reflectance value that the camera's sensor can record.
Gray cards can be used for in-camera white balance or post-processing white balance. Many digital cameras have a custom white balance feature. A photo of the gray card is taken and used to set white balace for a sequence of photos. For post-processing white balance, a photo of the gray card in the scene is taken, and the image processing software uses the data from the pixels in the gray card area of the photo to set the white balance point for the whole image."

As a note on using the sleeve of a white shirt, this is what is said :
"clothing washed in typical detergents contain fluorescent whitening agents, they tend to not be very spectrally neutral." However, it's better than nothing and if it works for you go for it.

Peiter Jerzak, your assumption is correct! Grey card for exposure, white card balance for temperature of color in the scene.

When you order an Expodisc for the A1, IMO get the 82mm. With step-down rings it'll cover your other lens. Check you're ordering the correct one, there are warm ones available, as I found out too late.

Cheers.
Allan Thanks for the advice but already ordered 72mm.

Alan

Gray or white can be used for white balance. The key is having something that does not have any color cast or tint. Gray cards are made to be completely neutral as are white cards that are made for white balance. The problem is that many people use anything white (sheet of paper, tee shirt, etc) that may have a color cast. You will notice that different sheets of paper can be different colors of white. This is how the warm cards work, they have a slight blue cast so the camera adds a little warm color to offset the blue cast.

And if you take my advice and use the expodisc you will never have to worry about grey vs white. The filter takes the color of your light source and balances your camera to that color temp...

And how does that Expodisc work in practice? Do you have to screw and unscrew it every time you want to WB? If that's the case I donn't think it's very practical.

Peiter,

From what research and testing I've done....

Yes a gray card is typically used to get the correct amount of exposure. In difficult light/color situations such as snow or black objects the reflective exposure meters on cameras (both still and video included) have a hard time determining the correct exposure.

So typically, your snow ends up looking gray and your black cat/dog ends up looking gray as well (or just not black). To help with such situations a gray card helps determine the correct exposure. If you take a photo of a gray card and look at the histogram you'll notice just a spike towards the middle of the scale. On Canon cameras this spike is normally 1/3 a stop under exposed. This difficulty in determining exposure using reflective meters is the same reason pros seem to use those ambient light meters rather than reflective, since different colors have differing reflectance.

Now I've tried using a gray card for white balancing purposes and compared it with a white card. I've got a card that is gray on one side and white on the other side. There is a definite difference between the two. The picture you get with the gray card seems to be somewhat warmer. At least that's the feeling I have.
The other difference comes from how one holds the white/gray card with respect to the light source and camera. If the light reflects directly into the camera things don’t quite turn out as expected. In fact I’ve had the hardest time white balancing at times. I’ve not tried the expo thingy but I’d say that ambient will work better than reflective.

On another note, when I’m outdoors and need to white balance (to be sure) I simply hit the White Balance button. I’m not pointed at anything white but the shot is a wide shot. The camera faithfully white balances.

Chris, I’ve looked at the DCS stuff many a times and even though I’m sure their stuff is great, their pricing is way too high. As a hobbyist I can’t bring myself to pay $600 for a few sheets of paper :) I wish some of their products were affordable. :)

And how does that Expodisc work in practice? Do you have to screw and unscrew it every time you want to WB? If that's the case I donn't think it's very practical.

Here's a video tutorial on using the ExpoDisc:
http://www.expoimaging.net/support/videotutorials.php
The links on the left will also take you to a faq and the instruction manual.

I have been looking at this awhile but didn't order one until yesterday. However, I am taking stills and videos in studios with bizarre colored walls and mixed lighting. It has been impossible to get a white balance that ever matches anything. I decided this would be my best bet.

From the video it appears the disc only has to be held over the lens, not actually attached (thus the suggestion to get one for the largest size lens you have, which in my case was 82mm for the Fuji lenses which will cover my 77nn DSLR lens and the Canon 72mm lens as well as smaller leneses). Then you can take a reference still in a DSLR or you can push the white balance button on a video camera. There is also a 4x4 square version I saw on the website that will go in a matte box.

By the way, if you want to try the technique (and maybe save the $100) some have written that two white coffee filters can be used in exactly the same way as the ExpoDisc.

However, even though seemingly expensive, the ExpoDisc seems to be fast, accurate, consistent and convenient--and for me this was worth the price.

With my DSLR, the Pentax K20D, I can adjust color offsets after I white balance. The ExpoDisc gives me a consistent white that I can then change an exact amount to what I may want, even in very different lighting situations. I suppose this would be similar to applying presents with the XH-A1. With the DSLR, even though I usually shoot RAW, the ExpoDisc should give me a consistent reference -- much better than trying to shoot a card in a mixed lighting situation.

Oh one other thing I've notice. This applies to those of us who have a 35mm adapter (doesn't matter which one).

Each lens you use changes colors a bit so it becomes imperrative to white balance after you change lenses. Now I don't know the technical reasons behind this but I assume the glass and/or amount of glass has something to do with it.

And how does that Expodisc work in practice? Do you have to screw and unscrew it every time you want to WB? If that's the case I donn't think it's very practical.

Apparently you can just hold it right in front of the lens, as long as it covers all the glass.

But -- from what I see in their video, you have to move the camera to where the subject is, in order to use the Expodisc? If so, that might be OK for handheld shooting, but it seems incredibly inconvenient if your cam is on a tripod (particularly a big camera). Is this the case?

Brent,

Yes this is the case. Essentially the camera has to see the light that is incident (falling) on the subject for it to be able to:
1. Act an an incident light meter
2. See the light and therefore allow for color correction.

But that is the nature of incident versus reflective meters anyway.

Shiv,

Thanks for the confirmation. I can see this working into the flow alright with a D-SLR in the studio, but with a big video camera on a tripod, it's certainly a lot easier to run a balance card over to the subject, I'd have to say...

Brent,

Yes, I guess different situations require different solutions. If color correction in post works great for you (meaning you've shot a card of some sort that you use as a reference in post) then you should stick with that I guess.

I've shot a few interview style videos and I guess if I really had to, I could dismount the camera from the tripod and take it over to where the subject(s) are and do a white balance. I don't know. I don't have one of these discs but the reason I've not bought one is I just didn't hear much of a buzz about it. Now I hear the buzz but the point you bring up....

I don't know, I guess its a matter is making it part of the checklist and then just doing it because :)

No need to spend $100 on an ExpoDisc, a pack of coffee filters is less than $1!

No kidding, I read about this on dvinfo somwhere I believe where some of you are using white coffee filters to white balance just like the ExpoDisc. I've tried this too and it seems to work very well, especially when you have different colored light sources.

Just take one or two *white* round coffee filters (not the brown or recycled ones, just the cheap-o pack of 500 that costs about $0.80), put one or two of them in front of your lens, set to manual focus, point towards the light and white balance. This works suprisingly well!

I know there are differences in color and whatnot for the coffee filters, but for a quick and dirty easy white balance it works great... and cheap too

Using the disk like an incident light-meter, you don't have to put the camera where the subject will be. More important is that the light falling on the meter is the same as the light falling on the subject, so in most cases you just turn round 180 degrees and take the reading.