The effect is achieved using a progressive frame rate (and since the frame rate is lower you get better exposure). The cinemode makes sure the gain is not cranked up.

But with the side effect of stuttering motion. You can achieve this too with the color slow shutter of the Sony which also brightens the scene but at the cost of smooth motion.

Hey Luc, did you move from Washington to Phoenix? ;)

I must be in Bizzaro world because my finding seem to differ from what I have read and seen on other sites. I did some daytime trials. The photograph of either do not impress me, but that is not what I am using this for. The HF10 seems to IS a bit better to me, but its colors are all out of wack. It flattened greens and made my cherry hedge look like it had christmas lights instead of the little cherries, i.e. the reds where incredibly pronounced, unnaturally so.

The SR12 took more realistic video that looked like real life, the cannon not so much. A very flat look indeed in the green spectrum and the reds were HOT! I will try to turn the gain down on the sony and test it out if I have a chance.

Unfortunately I don't know if the price difference justifies the sony. I got the HF100 for $668 at a B&M store around here. I could not believe it. The Sony SR12 was $1150!!!! I know I can get it cheaper elsewhere but I have credit at this place and I have until January to pay it off, so I think I will go to this place to make my purchase. I want to check out the HV30 to see how it compares. Next trial, trying to render this crap and watch it on my AMD64 3300 with 3 gigs of memory and a X1600pro. Wish me luck! ;-(

Regards,
Mario

I agree Dave. You can get this same effect by reducing the exposure on the SR12 or with some cameras where gain is accessible, reducing gain. I hate the 'hyped' look that some of these cameras give you by artifically upping contrast & brightness.

Yes, you can always achieve that using manual exposure or AE shift.

In bright lighting, the eye does compensate for different average illumination levels, but it also has a sense of absolute brightness at low levels of illumination and there is a point where a scene is dark enough that it actually *looks* dark to the eye. Most of the time, I like to capture that feeling in the image.

Auto exposure systems in still cameras have the same issue - they try to make every scene 18% gray - I usually have to compensate the exposure in dark settings if I want the photo to have the feeling of the original dark scene.

Mario -
No surprise for me on the "hot" reds with Canon - I saw it with my HV20, and I've seen it more than once with Canon cameras. SR11 seems to have one of the best and most natural color balances around, even better than the 7 series, which was pretty faithful on colors that usually seem to get "altered".

I almost always set AE shift a couple clicks to the minus side, although using the exposure function via the control wheel has been working well too. Zebras often show this to be needed for "best" exposure anyway. While this is somewhat limited manual control, you can get used to it and make it work well under most conditions.

That's a nice price on the HF, but I'll bet you'll end up with the Sony <wink>.

The HF10 seems to IS a bit better to me, but its colors are all out of wack. Regards,
Mario

Mario, if you're shooting at the highest resolution (which is much higher on the Sony), you should be getting both a sharper picture and better colors. We certainly are in agreement on the colors of the Canon...very weird at times.

Edit: OK, I see you were talking about the image stabilization. As a sidenote, it's kind of weird there seems to be no way to delete a post.

As a sidenote, it's kind of weird there seems to be no way to delete a post.

You might try deleting all of the contents during editing, maybe it will then delete the post. Seems I remember a system a long time ago that worked that way, but it's just a guess - YMMV

That's a nice price on the HF, but I'll bet you'll end up with the Sony <wink>.

Actually, $1150.00 is also a really good price for an SR12 (assuming it's really an SR12 and not an SR11). I hope it's a reputable store.

Yes, Dave, it is reputable and I have my camera in hand. They don't do phone or internet sales, though.

I am really disappointed in my findings and may have determined that HD is not where I want it to be to justify the investment. I have used stills and point and shoot video up to now for convenience. With that in mind, is there an SD camcorder/s you guys can recommend. I know its off topic and I won't post anything about your suggestions, but I may be leaning towards returning everything and going SD. The fact that the canon has such bad colors really disappointed me because the price difference was large. I simply can justify $1000 for a product that is not producing what I consider incredible results. I could deal with low light noise, but bad colors, no way! Especially since I just can dump a file that is immediately playable on my computer. The idea was to post video on youtube to let everyone know how my vacation was going. Now that seems impossible on my 2.5 year old lap top.

If I cant get outstanding results I don't want to pay over $500 and certainly don't want to sacrifice easy viewing. Only the results I have got from the SR12 would be worth the hassel but not the cost.

If you choose not to give any suggestions because the off-topic nature of my request, please point me to a forum where I can make this inquiry. Again thanks! and I am not off the band wagon just yet, so I may be back full force.

Kind Regards,
Mario

Mario, I can understand your frustrations with the Canon, been there done that. The colors are just not reliable and can really look whacky at times.

It's too bad the Sony's price isn't more in your range.

I scored a deal on my SR11, and it would be in your price range - maybe take a look at that model instead, there's $200 difference for the same cam with smaller HDD... you get the quality you want at a better price, IF you can get one from your dealer.

I will check on the SR11 but it is still $300 or 50% more than the canon and I did not like its low light performance so much, though I have not tried reducing the gain. The day performance of the sony was only lacking in image stablization. It did seem to jump more than the canon. I cannot believe that canon will put out a unit with that kind of color. Its unfortunate that Ken reports that the HV20/30 has the same problem. I hope the 40D I am going to buy won't do the same, though that may be easier to correct in photoshop.

Now that I brought up the HV20/30, is that also a computer intensive video to download and perhaps watch on my computer? It really sucks that I can't work with this on my lap top. That is another reason why I am thinking of going with SD.

On another note, I wish the TG1 was out. Its small size and better price point may have been the fit for me. Is there another Sony that is around the price of the HF100 that works well enough? I know the retailer has the cx7 and the sr10 but I believe those are older AVCHD coms that have some of the artifacts you all spoke of.

Again, thanks for your help.

Well, I only paid about $150 more for my SR than you mentioned for your HF... but it was a very lucky deal, the camera is a fast seller, so is sort of hard to come by, you probably will be seeing higher quotes...

Pull back the exposure, that's what I use the control knob for - rein in the automatic functions a bit. Might do the trick. Because "low light" is such a big point of critique, I think they try hard to pull evey last bit out of info our, and something has to give.

Depending on your laptop specs, an HDV cam might be easier to work with - you could downconvert over firewire to SD and have the HD tape for later. AVCHD the only way to downconvert is capture via the composite (yelllow RCA) output...sort of clunky.

I also wasn't thrilled with the HV20 IS, among other things, and went with the HC7 and also have used the HC9 - might be worth a look if you go HDV.

I also have the CX7, and personally haven't had any artifact problems with it, I found it smoother than the 7 series HDV cams... but you're back with the AVCHD processing issue. Incredible (and underrated) little cam if you ask me.

SR 10 is curent generation, but not sure which sensor it uses offhand - it's the "baby bro" to the SR11/12, and I "think" it has EXMOR/Bionz... sometimes these "baby" versions (HC5 was a good example, seen them on eBay for $450!) don't sell as well, so maybe you can get a deal while everyone is snapping up the SR11/12?

Trying to coax a 2.5 yeap old laptop to process HD video of any type is probably pushing it unless you're patient. Thus, perhaps HV20/30 or HC7/9 and downconvert from the cam might be your best shot, then do HD editing when you get back. Best of both worlds as it were - SD for the road, HD for later!

Thanks Dave! Thats great. I think that may be the route for me. I can probably get a deal on the HC-9. Is HDV the only format that will allow me to down convert to SD so I can upload easily to youtube and watch on my computer screen, I did some reading and I think the AVCHD units do it also. The SR10 has the same 1/5 sensor the TG1 is going to have. I wonder what the smaller sensor does to affect picture quality. Cant be good. The HC9 has a 2.9 inch sensor and the CX7 a 3". However, s the CX7 not last years technology that is prone to artifacts? I don't know what the opinion on the SR10 is...

I will check on the SR11 but it is still $300 or 50% more than the canon and I did not like its low light performance so much, though I have not tried reducing the gain. The day performance of the sony was only lacking in image stablization. It did seem to jump more than the canon. I cannot believe that canon will put out a unit with that kind of color. Its unfortunate that Ken reports that the HV20/30 has the same problem.

Mario, actually the color on the HV20 is better than that of the HF10. If the color on the HV20 was as bad, I probably would never have kept the HV20. I haven't played with the HV30, so I can't comment on its color.

SR 10 is curent generation, but not sure which sensor it uses offhand - it's the "baby bro" to the SR11/12, and I "think" it has EXMOR/Bionz... sometimes these "baby" versions (HC5 was a good example, seen them on eBay for $450!) don't sell as well, so maybe you can get a deal while everyone is snapping up the SR11/12?



Dave and Mario, the SR10 uses a 1/5" chip, but the clips I've seen from it are very impressive. In fact, in good light, I don't think it gives up much, if anything to the SR11/12. I haven't played with one myself, but the one area you might take a hit is low light considering the smaller chip.

If the new TX1 performs anything like the SR10, that might be an incredible achievement given its size.

I agree with the comments on low light automatic exposure on the Sony's. This is true for my HC96 DV, SR11 and the SR7. They all need to be pulled back several "clicks" on the manual control to give exposure more like the real picture. This for the SR11 means pulling back from wide open 18db of gain to potentially 12db of gain and the difference is grain being present in the image at 18db and very little grain at 12db and a much nicer image. For the SR7 and HC96 full open and 18db is an unusable picture. I don't know why they do this as it does nothing for the reputation of the camera at all. This doesn't happen in my PC10 DV but just starts to be this way for the TRV50 and TRV740. So over time of 8 years or so Sony has gradually introduced this characteristic. However on all these cameras its is easy to correct. Just don't use automatic when its dark!!!

Ron Evans

Just don't use automatic when its dark!!!

This is the best advice with *all* cameras. The only exception might be some cams that have a scene mode that handles dark scenes better automatically, like apparently some of the Canons.

I was also playing around in the store with the Panasonic SD9, which is sort of the "black sheep" on this forum because of low light performance (too much NR, basically), and found even with that camera, I can get much better results by using manual exposure in low light. It lets you readily control gain and shutter independently, and I found that I could force it into 1/24 shutter sooner than it normally likes to do, and then cut the gain down by 5-6dB or so to where the scene looks more like it did in real life. At the lower gain, the camera then applies less NR for a nicer image, in addition to being more realistic.

Automatic modes have gotten so good over the last 20 years that we tend to forget that there are still some times when manual works better.

I forgot to report that you all are right. Pulling down the gain really improves the image right on par, or maybe better than the HF10. I have also found out from sony that all of sonys AVCHD cameras WILL NOT down convert. However, the software CAN convert it!!!

I am going to do a little more research and report my findings. Dave, can you tell me where you got the SR11 or is that not allowed here?

Dave and Mario, the SR10 uses a 1/5" chip, but the clips I've seen from it are very impressive. In fact, in good light, I don't think it gives up much, if anything to the SR11/12. I haven't played with one myself, but the one area you might take a hit is low light considering the smaller chip.

Is the SR10 a new camera? I checked out the specs at B&H and Sony - it has a 1/5" sensor (as you mention), 15x optical zoom, no mic or headphone jack (similar to SD9 in that respect), no camera control dial and very little manual control, but it still weighs 1.2 pounds and costs $999. Despite the 15X optical zoom and relatively small $100 price difference, I'm having trouble seeing why anyone would want to buy this camera over an SR11. I'd be surprised if the 1/5" sensor is much better in low light than Panasonic's three 1/6" sensors, at least not without heavy noise reduction.

The SR11 should have much better performance for not much more money, and the SD9 is smaller, lighter, $350 cheaper, has better manual controls, and may well have similar low light performance due to the sensor sizes.

Dave, from what I've seen from comments, the prime reason for people buying the SR10 is price. But don't underestimate the video from this puppy. I've been very very impressed with the clips I've seen. I haven't see any low light clips though.

The SR10 came out at the same time as the SR11 & SR12. They all use the same Exmor & Bionz processing. The only differences are the chip sizes & HD sizes as well as the omission of some manual controls you mentioned.

Mario - AVCHD can be converted by the computer PMB takes roughly 10 minutes to convert a 10 minute CX7 clip to mpeg-2, 720x480 on my dual core 6000+ amd desktop. Not bad, and there are options for .wmv export, I didn't try them.

I would suspect that will take substantially longer on your laptop, but it might be an option - the program does pop up a "this could take a while" warning... HDV downconvert to an SD version is handled in real time as the camera sends the .avi out over firewire.

AFAIK the CMOS in the CX7 and the HC7/9 is the same 1/2.9", any other numbers are rounding/reviewer errors. There are however some differences in processing and of course final format (AVCHD v. HDV). I've had no artifacting issues with the CX7, and saw none in the mpeg clip - I suspect many artifacts are "user error" or incorrect software handling. For it's size, the CX7 is a lot of camera, and may be possible to get at close to the SD9 pricing right now with the "competition". I'm still using mine, even with the SR11 around, it's a bit more pocketable!

I got a lucky deal on my SR11 on the world's largest flea market, haven't seen anything close to it since. Legit dealer, crazy deal, sometimes you get lucky when new products come out and they want to move 'em. I think they are selling so fast right now, they may be tough to find or deal on.

Again, AE shift (relative adjustment) 2-4 clicks to the negative seems to work for me most times (the CX doesn't have this particular feature, though the auto has always "felt" better to me on this cam), OR pull exposure back as that is an absolute adjustment. Either can be used to great effect to improve PQ.



Dave - The SR 10 is new, and it's another in the series of "marketing releases" by Sony - a camera that hits a price point with reduced features that must be some marketer's idea of what will sell, and is not all it's cracked up to be, read my comments on the HC5 - there's a reason they can be had cheap now. Not that that may not be a great deal...

Sometimes you get lucky with cameras designed to hit a marketer's target, the HV20 certainly is a watershed, and has been great for all of us by giving breakthrough features at a lower price point. I personally prefer the Sony products, and think that their "base" cameras don't help them much, since the competitive nature of the market results in discounting of the high end stuff enough that the "base" ones don't make as much sense as I'm sure they did in that staff meeting!

the "base" ones don't make as much sense as I'm sure they did in that staff meeting!

Yes, I've been in meetings like that (not cameras though). Sony is doing the same thing with their new DSLRs. They introduced an a200 which was a replacement for the older a100, and then introduced the a300 and a350; all three models are only about $150 different in price from each other (on average). The a350 is a significant upgrade over the a200 in several areas (14Mp, live view), but the a300 just doesn't seem to have enough differentiation from the other two to justify itself. The DSLR market right now, like camcorders, is very competitive, and consumers can sometimes be very price sensitive, so maybe some manufacturers feel they have to attack every price point.

Anyway, I think something like the SR10 would have more value in the market if there were something else gained by the reduction in features and (potentially) performance besides just being a little cheaper, for example if it were small enough for me to carry around in my pocket. The new TG1, for example, does have a market niche, I would think.

I wanted to weigh in on the original topic now that I've had my HF100 for a few days.

First some background. I originally purchased the SR11. Hands down it was the nicest camcorder I've owned and that includes two other relatively expensive models for their time, the Canon Optura Pi $1350 and Sony HC3 $1395. I hit a snag though, the wife factor. She didn't like the large size and didn't see it being easy to take on vacation. Reluctantly I returned it but I at least got to experience what it was like to use it.

Naturally I purchased the Canon HF100 to replace it since it had quite a few people saying good things about it. Here are my thoughts.

The Sony SR11 beats Canon in build quality and engineering. It is really well thought out and as everyone else has said built like a tank. But in the end this turned out to be the reason I returned the camera. For family video / vacations the last thing I want dragging me down is a tank. The HF100 is pocketable. I shoved it in my pocket yesterday and flew a kite with my daughter without even worrying about the camcorder. As a result I got some nice video that I may have not had I had the SR11. I might have decided not to bring it since I didn't want to carry a camera bag.

The Sony SR11 has better color reproduction and white balancing. I immediately noticed that the HF100 wasn't as good when I started shooting with it. But again for your basic family type stuff I'm not sure how much it matters.

The HF100 has better audio in my opinion. The audio I'm getting of my daughter talking 15 feet away was much better than what I was getting with the Sony. I suspect it is because the microphone is front facing. While this could be corrected with my external Sony Mic it would be one more thing to lug around. The 5.1 audio on the SR11 was a gimmick for me and not something I'd ever really consider using.

The Sony has better connectivity to a computer since it doesn't require an external power source when in USB mode. The Canon does which adds yet another cord I have to deal with.

The HF100 beats the SR11 on Focus. I can't believe how quickly it locks in and stays locked. I had trouble with my HC3 and I noticed many of the same traits with the SR11. It's like you can see it wanting to start focusing and then it changes it's mind only to start again. And then as it locks in it takes longer than I'd like. The Canon, so far at least, has been much faster.

The optical viewfinder on the Sony is nice and I find myself picking up the Canon as if I'm going to look through one (and of course it isn't there..). I believe over time I'll break myself of the habit.

The Pixela software is a little cleaner than the Sony PMB software. I like the fact the import feature is separate from the picture browsing software (zoom browser). I chose not to install zoom browser since I don't need it. I do however like the importing option and the AVCHD player actually works really well.

Not to be overlooked, the price difference. With the money I saved on the HF100 I went out and purchased a Q9300 processor. I can't say enough for the improvement this made in Vegas Pro 8 compared to my old e4300 processor.

Finally, I like SD Cards. There is something cool about having an hour of video on a chip the size of postage stamp. I know the Sony offered memory stick support but I can buy close to 3 8GB SD cards for the price of one Sony. I can even share them between the HF100 and my digital camera.

So thats it. Both cameras are nice but for me the HF100 is a better fit.

Thanks for reading

Paul

Thanks for reading

Thanks for the informative post, Paul.

I like your post in particular because it highlights the fact that everyone has a different set of features and characteristics which are important to them and there isn't just one product that is right for everyone.

Paul -

Great post, you've described why I'm still keeping the CX7 around - pocket size is cool, though the SR11 isn't much bigger, it's noticeable. Besides, all the accessories swap, so the economics work for me, might not for someone else.

Very good points about the audio, focusing, and the cost of memory (ugh, can someone PLEASE tell Sony to make it up on volume with the MS Duos??? At least Sandisk has hit the market with 8G now, and I've switched in protest!). You'll learn to get along without the VF, but that 3.2" screen... hmmm, I'm finding the 2.7" a bit tiny!

It goes to show that there are great choices out there, and with each there may be some compromises, but still, what a great time to be working with video. I suspect this is much like when word processing first took hold and changed the whole nature of the printing business. Interesting times!

Congrats on the Quad core, that HAS to be a cool upgrade!

Thanks for the nice feedback Dave and Dave.

I drooled over the CX7 when it first came out but from I recall it was MSRP of something like $1300 or something like that? Does anything depreciate faster than a consumer camcorder? Even the HF100 which has been out less than a month is dropping like a rock. It is already over $50 less than what I originally paid at Amazon. Luckily they have 30 day price protection which simply means you have to write them a nice email to refund you the difference. I'm glad the depreciation is already starting rather than 6 months from now.

And yes the quad core has met my expectations that is for sure. It doesn't make the day to day basic computing tasks any faster but earlier I was encoding some 1920x1080 footage while using other applications without missing a beat.

Paul

I guess I have a different take on the audio. I love the ambience created by the 5.1 sound. I agree with Paul that your up-front subject's dialog will come out louder on the Canon, but in doing A/Bs between the two of them, it was kind of 'shocking' to hear the sound field collapse when the Canon audio popped on.

So I guess even there, each has its attributes and one may fit you better than the other.

Great review Paul. I too noticed the focus problem on the SR12. Though the HF100 had problems of it own, the sr11 scored a little slower in focusing in my book.

Dave, thanks for the informative information. I was told that the color problem I had was a defect and they gave me another HF100 for another 5 days. We will see (only one final to go!)

I don't know why, but I think this search will have me end up with a HV20 or 30.

Regards,
Mario

Anyone with any issues with the SR series focusing should try the spot 'touch focus' on the LCD screen. I've found it works very nicely. :)

Yes Ken, I noticed the focusing problems. I tried another canon and the same thing with the reds and pretty much color overall. Very disappointing. It ridiculous they put out a procuct that performs so poorly. I am really turned off.

Now I am between the HV30, SR10, 11 and CX7. The SR11 is great but unavailable where I have credit. The SR10 has no real manual controls, is bulky and has that 1/5" sensor. The cx7 seems like it also does not have good manual controls. I don't know how the performance of the cx-7 compares to the sr-11 or HV20. If anyone can weigh in on that I would appreciate it! I can get it (CX-7) for $849 at circuit city but the dreaded 15% restocking fee is applied there. I think these restocking fees are ridiculous, they should at least give you 3 days with no restocking. But I digress.

The HV30 is $899 and tape based but for me the picture is the most important thing. Does it have the same weird reds as the HF100? Is it smoother than the SR11? I would love to here what you guys think.

Regards,
Mario

Hi Mario -

I only notice the focus issues in really bad light (I'd have a light mounted under those conditions anyway) and high zooms - IMO the SR11 gets a tad twitchy when you kick in the digital zoom in general, but I can live with it.

Can't comment on the SR10 from hands on experience, but I think I'd go for the SR11 on specs...

CX7 -
The manual control of the CX7 is limited, and touchscreen is it... BUT I find I'm consistently happy with the auto capabilities, and you really can't beat the small size for a "take everywhere" cam. I'd personally take it over the Canon, on build quality alone - the HV20 just felt fragile to me, the CX7 feels like it's unbreakable. Remember you're going to need to add some memory sticks to the price, which might well put you back at "SR11" price point.

I shot some side by side tests in good light, the SR11 is better than the CX7, but you have to really analyze the video carefully - I switched back and forth randomly, and always picked the SR11 as "better", but it was subtle. I'm not getting rid of the CX7, it's close enough to the SR11 to use the two together multicam, and did I mention it's SMALL for taking everywhere?


HV20/30
If you go towards the HV30, check the build quality, the motor/chassis noise, and the IS. The HC7 was better in those areas than the HV20, and I'd expect the same goes for the HC9 over the HV30. I saw strange reds under certain conditions when I had an HV20, but I think I've noticed it in Canons I've looked at over the years, I think it's a "Canon look", you either like it or you don't. A lot of people like it a lot, so it's hard to argue with that.

Not sure if that helps you any... picking one is tough! Decide which workflow you prefer, which features are REALLY important, and go for it. None are "perfect", but all are very good...

I've downloaded a few clips from the SR10, and they too are very impressive. Colors seem very nice and similar to the SR11/12. Even sharpness and detail seem excellent in those clips. I can't speak to the lowlight since I didn't see any clips under those conditions.

By the way, like Dave, I haven't noticed any real focusing issues with the SR12. When they occur they're invariably under lowlight conditions. The only real anomoly I had was in a shopping mall with a bright sign in the background and to the left of the subject. The SR12 only wanted to focus on that, but at the time I still had the HF10, and it did exactly the same thing. I should have tried the spot focus on the Sony at that time, but I didn't.

Ken, how would you right the "smoothness" of the video of the SR10? How do you think it compares to the CX-7? Did you download uncompressed clips?

Let me know.

Regards,
Mario

Yes Mario, I did download a few clips from the SR10 taken in sunny & snowy conditions. I was particularly impressed with the exposure and color, just as I am with the SR11/12. One of the clips showed a child in the shade with a bright snow-filled landscape in the backgroud amidst a row of houses. All objects, including the child, were properly exposed. Not too easy a task for a small chip like resides in the SR10.

Displayed on my 60" plasma, I honestly don't think I would have known if it came from an SR10/11 or 12. It was very smooth.

I just went back to look at the guy's original posting and I believe this is the clip if you'd like to look at it yourself:

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=IYP4VMCJ

Hello Ken,

i'm very happy to have found this site, very prolific about avchd discussion.
In Italy we are too much sceptic for now...

i believe in this format (i've had a pana sd1). I only believe the big brand have to do the correct choices to improve their camera to completely overtake hdv. Since it's well known h264-avc compression is very better than mpeg2 in each conditions...
I believe that if they bring bitrate to 20mbit (at least) it would be very important. At the same time i can't understand their policy about sensors...why did they higher cmos size...why??? (for example 1/3.2 HF10 from 1/2.7 hv20/30 and pana from 1/4 for each CCD of SD1 to 1/6 of SD5/9...)

That said, i've read your impressions and pls correct me if i've not understand right:
in your opinion HF10 is really close to HV20 but a little bit inferior and has some kind of problem about perfect AWB.
While you are globally satisfied from SR11e that seems to be equal or better than hv20. (in "contrast" for example from what i can conclude reading reviews). Am i correct?

It's very important for me knowing your opinion since you are "normal" man with no interest so you can really be objective.

Could you pls give me much informations from your test in the same conditions, about their behaviour in high light / medium light / low light contest and in complex shooting: i mean panning shooting and shooting with many movement (this is critical case that many reviews does not go thorougly...).

The best thing would be if you may upload some "raw" clips of both hv20/sr11e in the "same" conditions. I would really appreciate.

PS how is the SR11e viewfinder? usable? what about its manual functions...shuttter, exposure? ...and...usable manual focus or worser than the hv20/30 small wheel ?
PPS in sr11e, is it possible to put off hard disk and shoot (always at full-hd 16mbit) on SDHC card? this would be very important in critical weather conditions or if there are some big shakes...)

Thanks in advance.
ciao!

Ciao, actually I felt there was a big difference between the HV20 and the HF10. I felt the color of the HV20 was much better as well as how it handled contrast. The HV20 never really showed an artificially high contrast and never showed colors that looked wrong like the HF10.

I do think the SR11/12 are very close in quality to the HV20. I slightly prefer the SR12 for its slightly more natural color. I find almost no difference in sharpness or detail between the two and I see little to no artifacting in the SR12 as the result of AVCHD compression @ 16mbs variable bitrate.

My comparisons were conducted in high (outdoors sunny, outdoors cloudy), medium (good indoor lighting) and low light conditions. In these three cases the SR12 and the HV20 performed very closely. The HF10 again had contast that was too artifical, too hyped and with colors that were, at times, just strange. I think the autofocus on the HV20 and HF10 performed better under low light conditions but they were about equal in other conditions.

The HV20 displays a different kind of noise when the light gets very low. I actually think the noise under very low light conditions is more objectionable on the HV20 than the SR12. The SR12 noise tends to be a fine grain, almost monochromatic noise, that doesn't 'hit you in your face'. However the HV20 noise gets strange in that you begin to see vertical lines across the screen. It's almost as if you begin to see the structure of the sensor in the HV20. I'm actually not sure what those vertical lines are, but I also saw the same noise in my Canon HV10. The HF10 didn't seem to have quite the same low light noise as the HV10 & HV20, but again its colors were not as natural under low light condtions as the other cams.

The viewfinder on the SR12 is one of its nicest features and one that I don't feel any camcorder should be without. There are times that the sun simply prevents you from seeing the LCD clearly and this is where the viewfinder is so valuable. Of course if you are using the LCD flip out, the Sony's is better by a wide margin compared to the Canons. It is both larger and of higher resolution.

The SR11/12 have manual exposure controls, but no direct control over shutter speed or aperture as does the Canon. However the front mounted wheel of the Sony allows a very easy adjustment of either white balance, white balance 'bias', exposure for a given scene or exposure 'bias' which will always tell the cam to adjust a bit higher or lower from its automatic settings. The wheel is much easier to use than the toggle on the Canon.

If you choose, you can always shoot to a memory stick, 'disabling' the internal hard drive. However nobody seems to know if the hard drive is actually locked down and parked or still doing 'something' when you are recording to the memory media.

I really thank you Ken!
Perfectly clear!

So, if you have to buy a camcorder, there are more PRO to buy an SR11 instead of HV30 today beacuse the sony quality is surely not lower... And you have the big advantage to have already your clip to import immediately in a few minutes in your pc...

of course if you buy an avchd camera, you need a very powerful system...

ciao !!

Reporting back before I go on my trip. Cinemode seemed to fix some of the color problems. Also, using the white balance for daylight and cloudy conditions also helped. I decided to keep the camera (HF100) because for $832 with accidental damage insurance (you break it, we replace it) for 3 years was to good to pass up.

Hi Ken,

what about SR11/12 behaviour in panning, panoramic shoots and in general with many movements scenes?
since HV20 has a well known limits in these conditions and since i can see from this video http://www.vimeo.com/945037 (look at cars...) it is the same problem too for HF10...so i would like to understand better.
When i tried 3CCD pana SD1 i didn't have these kind of problem in these conditions.
Could be a CMOS limit?

thanks in advance.

ciao!

Lorenzo, the only issues I see in those posted videos are one of exposure in 60i and a stuttering in movement in both 60i and 30p. I'm not sure what's causing the stuttering in the cars at 60i, but it shouldn't be there. 60i movement is buttery smooth regardless of how fast the subject is moving. 30p and 24p will produce that kind of stutter and it's why I never used those modes.

In terms of the exposure, I think the SR12 does a better job than the Canon HF10/100 with exposure in general. Exposure & inconsistent color were the two reasons I sold my HF10.

exaclty, it is the shuttering the irritating problem i've seen...
...so, if you do a similar shoot with sr12, you have a completely fluid video?

thanks again ! :-)

Absolutely. I've never seen anything remotely like a stuttering fast moving object on my SR12 when displayed on my plasma.

For the HF10 videos where you are seeing issues are you evaluating the Vimeo movies based on the experience of playing the Vimeo transcoded file online, or are you downloading the original files to your system and basing your evaluation on playback of the original files?

I've seen all kinds of motion issues with Vimeo based online that weren't present in the original files when viewed, and I'd hate to see any manufacturer (Sony or Canon) get unfairly dinged for the acts of a third party transcoder...

Additionally, it seems like we're all using slightly different ways of generating our HD content for submission to Vimeo, so even the original source material is suspect.

Even worse, we all may have different hardware and software decoders on our systems so even evaluation of M2TS raw files is suspect.

So, any thoughts on how to do a truly objective evaluation of the AVCHD files coming off these cameras in terms of motion rendering?

As far as my experience is concerned, the stuttering video in 30p comes from hands-on experience with a Canon HF10. Recorded at 30p and played back directly on my Pioneer plasma, the results were stuttery with fast moving objects...not much different than 24p, just a bit better.

The bottom line is that there is no way to get the same smooth motion of 60i with such a reduced frame rate like 30 or 24p. It just won't happen.

I had zero problems with such motion in 60i on either the HF10 or my SR12.

Absolutely. I've never seen anything remotely like a stuttering fast moving object on my SR12 when displayed on my plasma.

thank you Ken !

PS if you have a bit of time, when you want/can, pls upload me a little "raw" clip from your sony in some critical conditions (many movements scenes or similar). thanks!

Hello all. Just got back from a "mini vacation" in Minnesota and Wisconsin. I took the SR11 with me to shoot the Mississippi River scenery and here is what I have to report.

1. It was cold; very cold for late April. Snow, wind, rain; great elements to test the SR11 in.
2. The footage shown on my 42" 720p plasma looks very, very good. Nice and accurate colors (even the green colors, where I could find them). There was some sunlight time, but not much, so most of the footage was with overcast. PQ was sharp, with good details and great contrast. The cam handled the mixed clouds and occasional sun very well. Sound was good, even with a makeshift wind screen on the camcorder. Most of the wind was eliminated (about 70%). The cam as a whole performed well.
3. I dropped the cam onto the cement. It fell off of my tripod (it was not locked on like I thought it was) and hit the cement from a height of about 4 feet. As it hit, the LCD panal flew open and the cam bounced once before coming to rest. I was panicked. I picked it up and immediately gave it a once over and then turned it on and tested it. Aside from a couple of minor scratches and the LCD panal being a tad loose (not hardly noticable), all was well. No problems with anything the rest of the trip. Nothing was lost on the hard drive, no performance problems, nothing was broken, nothing. Whew! Even though I have Best Buys protection program with "accident" insurance, my heart was still in my throat when it happened.

Sonys rock solid construction came through wonderfully. And believe me, I checked that camcorder completely.

So now that I am home (and warm again), I will completely inspect the cam again and make sure it is 100% OK.

My only complaint is a personal one, and that is, it is too lite of a camcorder for smooth operation on a tripod. I have a good fluid head, heavy duty tripod. Because of the lite weight of the cam, every time I touch it to zoom, or to move it, or to turn it off, the cam moves and is very noticable on the footage. Also, the wind really played havoc with its "liteweightness". My friend with his FX7 experienced much less trouble.

So there it is, my first "field test".

Respectfully,
Mike

Thanks for the field report Mike!

Glad to hear that your gravity testing went well 8-P

Out of curiousity, what did you end up with for a wind shield? I haven't had time to fiddle with one, but seems like a good thing to have at the ready.

I got a chance to take my SR11 out for a trip to the zoo/park/steam train kids ride, and was really impressed with the handling (and wouldn't have wanted to lug the FX7 around!). I've got a lanyard on the "D" clip for hanging the cam around my neck, used the "quick on" feature extensively, rediscovered the joys of a viewfinder (after using CX7 for a while), and that big screen was sure nice. The cam likes to focus on foreground objects (cages, not animals), but manual works well, shoulda tried the spot focus...

Only had a brief chance to review footage, but the stills looked great, and video looked great too, have to dump and edit, but have other shoots this week. Sorta nice to have a big storage device, even if I really don't like the HDD conceptually...

All in all, this camera is a joy to shoot with for the casual family outing, though I still like the ultra light/small CX7, the SR11 definitely has it's advantages with only a little weight/size difference.

Dave, my windscreen was an athletic wrist band. The first time I used it I applied it right side up, with the elastic band in the inside. It worked poorly as a windscreen. I then tried it with the band on the outside and it worked better; about 50-70% better. So it will have to do until I figure something else.

Mike

Thanks Mike - that seems like the simple/easy approach, probably have to go by the sporting goods store myself!

Did a shoot of a school play last night, SR11 and CX7 side by side, pretty bad lighting. CX7 was good, but the SR11 is definitely lower noise and sharper detail in this "real life" situation.

Colors were better too, but I again noted that if you pass into digital zoom (and it appears to kick in when in the highest tele range of optical to my eye), your colors/saturation go "flat". I can't recreate this phemomenon in good light, but it was painfully obvious under the so-so school stage lighting. My best guess is the camera chooses to flatten the color to be able to keep digital noise reduction going strong? Definitely hitting a "processing horsepower wall" with all the processing this camera does - facial recognition probably would have been better turned off too, lessening the load some.

That said, this camera really is a bigger step up than I first thought - with more use it's turning out to be a better performer in "live" situations.

And the stills shooting simultaneously with the video worked surprisingly well - a little lag between shots, looked like it's buffering three and needs to clear the buffer before taking more, but the stills are quite usable, and in rough lighting conditions beat the CX7 hands down for still quality.

Hello all. Just got back from a "mini vacation" in Minnesota and Wisconsin. I took the SR11 with me to shoot the Mississippi River scenery and here is what I have to report.

1. It was cold; very cold for late April. Snow, wind, rain; great elements to test the SR11 in.
2. The footage shown on my 42" 720p plasma looks very, very good. Nice and accurate colors (even the green colors, where I could find them). There was some sunlight time, but not much, so most of the footage was with overcast. PQ was sharp, with good details and great contrast. The cam handled the mixed clouds and occasional sun very well. Sound was good, even with a makeshift wind screen on the camcorder. Most of the wind was eliminated (about 70%). The cam as a whole performed well.
3. I dropped the cam onto the cement. It fell off of my tripod (it was not locked on like I thought it was) and hit the cement from a height of about 4 feet. As it hit, the LCD panal flew open and the cam bounced once before coming to rest. I was panicked. I picked it up and immediately gave it a once over and then turned it on and tested it. Aside from a couple of minor scratches and the LCD panal being a tad loose (not hardly noticable), all was well. No problems with anything the rest of the trip. Nothing was lost on the hard drive, no performance problems, nothing was broken, nothing. Whew! Even though I have Best Buys protection program with "accident" insurance, my heart was still in my throat when it happened.

Sonys rock solid construction came through wonderfully. And believe me, I checked that camcorder completely.

So now that I am home (and warm again), I will completely inspect the cam again and make sure it is 100% OK.

My only complaint is a personal one, and that is, it is too lite of a camcorder for smooth operation on a tripod. I have a good fluid head, heavy duty tripod. Because of the lite weight of the cam, every time I touch it to zoom, or to move it, or to turn it off, the cam moves and is very noticable on the footage. Also, the wind really played havoc with its "liteweightness". My friend with his FX7 experienced much less trouble.

So there it is, my first "field test".

Respectfully,
Mike

Well, I have had time to really look over the cam, looking closely for any adverse affects do to my having dropped it. I can find nothing, other than the very minor scratches and very slightly loose LCD flipout screen, first noticed at the scene of the accident. All else seems just fine. I don't even notice the scratches or slightly loose LCD panal any more.
I have done some more shots of spring green and other shots of various subjects and have come to these conclusions:

1. Colors of spring green are very close; much better than my old Sony DV camcorder. Other colors are good as well (don't have a Sony TV with x.v.color).
2. Motion is handled very well. Footage shot of passing train cars that are moving by me at 45-65 MPH from a distance of 50-100 feet, has very little "smearing" or "blurring". There seems only an extremely slight loss of clarity due to the motion. This seems better than my friends FX7 and definately better than my old DV.
3. PQ is close to that of my friends FX7. From indirect comparisions (admittedly not real accurate), the FX7 seems to have a slightly sharper picture, showing a bit more detail; twigs on the end of branches on distant trees being more clear, individual blades of grass being clearer a further distance away from the cam. It just seems that the FX7 footage hits me as being more like "real" HD (like what I see from a BR player in the store) than the SR11 footage. Not that the SR11 is not HD, because it is and has a very, very good picture.
4. As to sound, the jury is still out. I cannot comment on the sound until I set up my new theater sound system.

Now to be fair, I am not using the same monitors when comparing the two cams, nor are the times of viewing the FX7 footage immediately close to those times when I view the SR11 scenes (which are different). So there are too many variables to make this a viable comparison. This is all my own nonscientific, personal, seat of the pants feeling, nothing more.

Am still hoping to get my friends FX7 and make a better A/B comparision using the same TV monitor.

Until then, hoping all of you have a great evening.

Respectfully,
Mike