I always shoot full manual and one of the main compositional/setting places I live when shooting is at full tele, fully open iris. What I have found on both Z7s that I have is when you zoom in full tele to pull focus and then zoom out to compose the image gets slightly soft at the right and center and the left side gets very blurry. See screen shot here http://www.firstsightpictures.com/z7blur.jpg

So if you zoom into a bridal party or couple from a distance or anything at all to get a shallow DOF the focus plane on the left will be out of focus as you see the tree on the left out of focus. Yes i did do the auto and manual flange/backfocus adjustment but there was still no change in the result. This is EXTREMELY bad for any manual shooters who shoot creatively.

So Z7 users. Put the cam in full manual use ND and or shutter to bring your exposure into range and then zoom in fully to a lineup of subjects that are the same distance away if your iris is wide open it should be at 2.0, ten back out until you see the iris limit go to 1.8. In this range you should see the inconsistency at it's worst. I have already confirmed with another user that his Z7 does the exact same thing but the blur is on the right side.

Here is a short video clip http://www.firstsightpictures.com/z7blur.wmv of my closeup cam on a dance performance. You can see where I go in tight to pull focus twice during the clip and zoom out for a head to toe and it gets a little soft and then anytime the performers are in the left side of the frame it gets even blurrier. You can't see it at all on the Z7 LCD, even with peaking it looks to be in focus.

I have noticed this as well. I have not had a lot of time with the camera but I did video a classical concert last night and it does seem to have a similar characteristic that you mentioned. This might be a major problem! I cannot confirm that it is the lens or the electronics, though.

kdbf

As soon as I recieve my lens adapter for my Nikons I will run a test to determine if this is a lens issue or electronics. Maybe someone else can do it sooner.

I have the wonders of this as well. Interestingly, I have a blur on the right side whereas Bruce's was on the left.

I swear I'm really losing confidence in this camera and Company.

See attached image. It's a still frame from video I captured when talking with Bruce. Notice how the blur is on the right and not the left. Each box of DVD's were equally spaced and the curviture is based on the desk. Oh, and I didn't scale the image properly which is why it's skewed.

One thing I don't quite understand is this from Sony that states "To address back-focus concerns, the Zeiss 14X and 8X zooms maintain automatic back-focus adjustment (akin to the automated back-focus routine in the EX1's service menu)".

mine appears on the left side...

I would suggest a more exact test with a backfocus pattern and Carefull set-up to eliminate skew and alignment issue

Also check that lens has no wobble. Can you wobble the lens and does the image go in and out of focus?

Check that lens is fitted correctly, remove and re attach and check nothing is there

Also Aberration can be caused by any add on filters, remove any filters and re check

I have to reevaluate. After reviewing the footage I took yesterday it appears to be not as much of an issue as I first though. It may just be an extremely narrow depth of field and not a camera issue with mine.

I would suggest a more exact test with a backfocus pattern and Carefull set-up to eliminate skew and alignment issue

Also check that lens has no wobble. Can you wobble the lens and does the image go in and out of focus?

Check that lens is fitted correctly, remove and re attach and check nothing is there

Also Aberration can be caused by any add on filters, remove any filters and re check

No wobble. Reseated and locked numerous times and verified clean glass inside outside with no filters.

I have performed several manual and auto backfocus/flange tests on both the Z1 cams I have and both are exactly the same every time. Here is a clip showing proper focus technique and watch what happens to the subject.

http://www.firstsightpictures.com/Z7blur2.wmv

I have to reevaluate. After reviewing the footage I took yesterday it appears to be not as much of an issue as I first though. It may just be an extremely narrow depth of field and not a camera issue with mine.

I am pretty much sure by your clip, that you have the exact same issue. It looks like the light in that perf was pretty decent so you may have been stopped down a little which begins to minimize the issue. Do exactly as I say open up full zoom in, focus and then zoom out 10-25% record it to CF and then put it in full frame on your timeline and see it yourself.

Bruce, do you have a test with a zoom in all the way,
then focus,
then zoom back, as a continuance shot,
so we can see when the left part goes out of focus
also do u have any add on filters and have u removed and re seated lens

Yes the clip I just posted does just that.
http://www.firstsightpictures.com/Z7blur2.wmv
no filters and several remove, reseat, lock. under several lighting conditions and all 4 ND settings. I am pretty positive this is a lens issue. It was great that sony went after putting a full manual lens on a camera on this form factor, too bad it just sucks. Time for sony to get on Zeiss and get these changed out. Sucks because i have to reset all of my camera bags back to Z1 cams and explain to several customers why their expensive video is blurry and wait for these cams to be made right.....

I am not sure now. Here are some grabs from you video. I don't see the issue of one sided blur on these.

kdbf

I am pretty much sure by your clip, that you have the exact same issue. It looks like the light in that perf was pretty decent so you may have been stopped down a little which begins to minimize the issue. Do exactly as I say open up full zoom in, focus and then zoom out 10-25% record it to CF and then put it in full frame on your timeline and see it yourself.


Yes, it was a very dark room and the f-stop was fully open. no gain. it looks like a narrow depth of field issue but not a camera problem.

I am not sure now. Here are some grabs from you video. I don't see the issue of one sided blur on these.

kdbf


You have to watch the video. I don't know what you did to that second grab. Looks like you put a gaussian on it to even out the blur. The first grab is from where I zoomed in to pull focus and then you see I zoom out and the subject I placed in focus goes blurry but everything from the center to the right of it at the same focal length is in focus. Sony just called me from NAB and said they are analyzing everything now. So if you have a Z7 don't want to be stuck with a major issue of a half muddied up frame for a large portion of your shots you need to do this test properly.

Yes, it was a very dark room and the f-stop was fully open. no gain. it looks like a narrow depth of field issue but not a camera problem.

When you zoom in your depth of field is most narrow as you zoom out the DOF gets bigger and your subjects that you marked in your focus technique do not get blurrier. You cannot see this on your cam LCD you have to put it on a regular HD display.

Dude you have to watch the video. I don't know what you did to that second grab. Looks like you put a gaussian on it to even out the blur. The first grab is from where I zoomed in to pull focus and then you see I zoom out and the subject I placed in focus goes blurry but everything from the center to the right of it at the same focal length is in focus. Sony just called me from NAB and said they are analyzing everything now. So if you have a Z7 don't want to be stuck with a major issue of a half muddied up frame for a large portion of your shots you need to do this test properly.


I didn't do anything to the grab. The fact that the blur switches sides from your grab to mine makes me think that it is either depth of field issue or because it was not taken from static shooting. Did you have auto focus on?

I didn't do anything to the grab. The fact that the blur switches sides from your grab to mine makes me think that it is either depth of field issue or because it was not taken from static shooting. Did you have auto focus on?

Full manual on everything, not even servo zoom. I never use auto focus on my cameras at any time.

This is the screen grab from the same video, not deinterlaced. http://www.firstsightpictures.com/Image0.jpg The right side is a little soft, which it shouldn't be, but the left side is considerably more blurry. This particular one was right after a manual flange adjustment, which could be slightly off, but with all adjustments the one constant is an uneven blur at 1.8-2.0 at 60-90% telephoto. Here is a screen grab from the first cam Marshall Levy tested http://www.therealmav.com/bruce01.jpg

he had the PAR wrong and the curved table makes it more exaggerated, but you can still see the same issue, just flipped. Clear on one side very blurry on the right.

You can see the dance footage I posted. Dancers in focus on zoom in, zoom out 10%, dancers a little soft. they move left and they get very blurry. The whole time they never changed their front to back distance to the camera only moved side to side.

I have to reevaluate. After reviewing the footage I took yesterday it appears to be not as much of an issue as I first though. It may just be an extremely narrow depth of field and not a camera issue with mine.

This is exactly what I have been thinking. Very narrow depth of field. I have always noticed this to a degree with our 170s as well, but when you go to HD everything is going to be magnified. When a camera is zoomed all the way in you do not have much you can focus on and anything slightly different in distance is going to be out of focus.

Bruce Cleveland

This is exactly what I have been thinking. Very narrow depth of field. I have always noticed this to a degree with our 170s as well, but when you go to HD everything is going to be magnified. When a camera is zoomed all the way in you do not have much you can focus on and anything slightly different in distance is going to be out of focus.

Bruce Cleveland

I am quite familiar with shallow depth of field. This has nothing to do with that it has to do with lens inconsistency at certain focal lenght and aperture settings. What you have focal length targeted in frame is NOT supposed to go out of focus when zooming out and as you zoom out the DOF gets wider so MORE things will be in focus not LESS and most certainly not your subject that hasn't moved. The tree on the right stays in focus as the focus target goes out of focus which is at the exact smae distance from the house as the other tree. Here is another clip i just took after a auto flange adjustment and better exposure that shows the right tree sharp and the left side burred as it has on every camera so far.

http://www.firstsightpictures.com/z7blur3.wmv

I have asked this question a couple of times, maybe Juan Martinez can answer, he seems to know alot about this camera as his presentation was quite knowledgeable

One thing I don't quite understand is this from Sony that states "To address back-focus concerns, the Zeiss 14X and 8X zooms maintain automatic back-focus adjustment (akin to the automated back-focus routine in the EX1's service menu)".

Bruce are you saying you have it in manual or auto focus? I thought you said manual focus.

Bruce

Never mind my last question. So the camera on manual focus should not be trying to focus on anything. And you are saying that on manual focus when you pull out it is going out of focus on the sides? Sorry if I seem dense on this problem. I am trying to replicate and not sure what I am supposed to be looking for.

Bruce

wow... this does look really bad. I'm thinking of the EX1 a little more now.

but onto trying to figure this out, I looked at a Z7 a couple weeks ago, the store had only one in stock & had to take it out of the box to look at it.

I remember seeing a focusing chart in there, can you shoot some more video of the camera pointed at the chart?

zoom in, set focus, zoom out. pause. pan left. pause. pan right.

if someone can do this I'm guessing it will show the problem clearly & rule out any DOF issues

Great idea Zach! It is raining outside but I took an umbrella out and did a test againast my garage door and it does indeed show it getting soft when you start to zoom out and then the left softer than the right. I am going to get the other focus chart out of the box in storage and shoot two charts one on each side and I'll post it in an hour or so.

wow... this does look really bad. I'm thinking of the EX1 a little more now.

but onto trying to figure this out, I looked at a Z7 a couple weeks ago, the store had only one in stock & had to take it out of the box to look at it.

I remember seeing a focusing chart in there, can you shoot some more video of the camera pointed at the chart?

zoom in, set focus, zoom out. pause. pan left. pause. pan right.

if someone can do this I'm guessing it will show the problem clearly & rule out any DOF issues

Here is a screen grab. 20 meters away centered exactly on the middle square. Pulled focus on the left target and zoomed out about 20% F1.8 http://www.firstsightpictures.com/Z7focuschart.jpg

Here is a screen grab. 20 meters away centered exactly on the middle square. Pulled focus on the left target and zoomed out about 20% F1.8 http://www.firstsightpictures.com/Z7focuschart.jpg

no doubt that there is some blur but the camera does appear to be slightly off center--closer to the left side...

kdbf

but the camera does appear to be slightly off center--closer to the left side...

kdbf

#1 the camera was exactly centered. Measure the squares..... #2 It wouldn't matter anyway because my focus target was the LEFT target so if anything should be out of focus it would be the RIGHT target, but no the right target is in the focus plane and the left goes out of focus.... Here is the actual footage showing that. It is drizzling so i am holding an umbrella so it is a little rough the jump back is the digital extender so i could pull tight focus. Then it jumps to the pan, but no settings were changed i just consolidated the footage for smaller file size. http://www.firstsightpictures.com/z7blur4.wmv

Here is the grab of the same thing from another Z7 the serials on the two that I have here are 110022 & 11002

http://www.firstsightpictures.com/Z7focuschart2.jpg

Bruce,

can you kindly check two things - if possible:

1. since you have TWO cameras, please - switch the lenses from one to another and chech how it looks. if you record same settings, composition, light and camera position with TWO different lenses - if the problem is within lenses - still grabs will be different, if equal - this means that problem is inside the camera.

2. i am not sure with this, i do not have the camera and lens myself - didn't check that - can you check is it possible to detach lens from the camera and turn it 120 degr. and mount it again in new position.

OR

at least - detach the lens and put it back as close as you can - but DO NOT mount it! try to find proper sharpnes - some vignetin will occur, i know, but at least you can TURN lens clocwise to see where - if any - blurring is positioned now.

that way you can check is this blurring connected with lenses or with something else inside camera - personally i beleive that problem is within lens.

thank you,

filip kovcin

The lens doesn't turn it just sits flush and then the locking mechanisms lock it down.

I swithced it out and the cam requested a flange back adjustment. I performed it and then did the same test and it exhibited the exact same problem. I don't think it necessarily means it is the camera. I personally still think it is the lens.

Bruce,

Do your cameras flange adjustments work under AF mode? Mine does not...I have to do it manually. Why?

Thanks
Jake

Yes. You just have to have the zoom in servo mode, switch is under the lens

I have a z7 and have experienced an "issue" that may be related. When the lens hood is OFF, and you are in relatively low light, with soft diffused light to the camera left or right (but not visible to the lens in WA) I have seen glare/flare to the left or right of the recorded image. (to the opposite side to the source of oblique light).

It is most noticeable at the wide to near wide focal lengths and changes as you zoom in/out. It is very apparent, and more so when zooming, and when the image is dark (ie the flare is against dark backgrounds). I can't reproduce the effect when the lens hood is on, so it seems to be some internal reflection issues within the lens. Shooting into light sources does not produce this effect.

Can anyone reproduce this effect? maybe it is related to the above lens performance issues.

Could you possibly shoot a large poster, any flat image, but the bigger the better? Also, make sure your shooting straight on, the garage test looks like DOF to my eyes. Not saying it is, but do you have a dof scale for the distance, focal length, aperture you're shoot with? Does stopping down fix it?

It's really sad to see so many problems reported from this camera, hopefully they'll be fixed in later deliveries.

I have a z7 and have experienced an "issue" that may be related. When the lens hood is OFF, and you are in relatively low light, with soft diffused light to the camera left or right (but not visible to the lens in WA) I have seen glare/flare to the left or right of the recorded image. (to the opposite side to the source of oblique light).

It is most noticeable at the wide to near wide focal lengths and changes as you zoom in/out. It is very apparent, and more so when zooming, and when the image is dark (ie the flare is against dark backgrounds). I can't reproduce the effect when the lens hood is on, so it seems to be some internal reflection issues within the lens. Shooting into light sources does not produce this effect.

Can anyone reproduce this effect? maybe it is related to the above lens performance issues.


That's why they make lens hoods :-) j/k. I have seen this problem with other cameras due to a filter....you didn't mention it, so just to rule it out, did you have a filter on the lens?

Could you possibly shoot a large poster, any flat image, but the bigger the better? Also, make sure your shooting straight on, the garage test looks like DOF to my eyes. Not saying it is, but do you have a dof scale for the distance, focal length, aperture you're shoot with? Does stopping down fix it?

It's really sad to see so many problems reported from this camera, hopefully they'll be fixed in later deliveries.

I've already posted numerous examples and tests. It is NOT A DOF ISSUE. If you do a backfocus adjustment and then zoom in anf focus on a subject and then zoom out and it goes out of focus... THAT is an issue in iteslf. This is even worse because not only does it lose sharpness it goes WAYY soft in almost half the frame. I really haven't tested stopping down on the aperture, and I guess I will, but any understanding of DOF will tell you that the image will get sharper as you close the iris. If anyone sees these examples and calls it a DOF issue then all they are doing is showing their lack of knowledge on the subject....

That's why they make lens hoods :-) j/k. I have seen this problem with other cameras due to a filter....you didn't mention it, so just to rule it out, did you have a filter on the lens?

That's what it sounds like to me. Post some footage.

That's what it sounds like to me. Post some footage.

No, the camera was out of the box, no filters or any other reasons to increase the incidence of flare.

Firstly i don't experience it on any of the broadcast lenses I own on 2/3 and 1/2 inch cameras, nor even on a PD100, PD150, Z1 etc etc. Light straight down the lens yes, but not so obliquely (70 deg. to lens axis) that you would never even consider flagging or insisting on a lens hood. Likewise if it flares in such situations, maybe it will flare in less oblique scenarios - when any lens hood would be of no use whatsoever anyway.

Secondly there are occasions when you would not have the lens hood on (such as with a circular filter where the Z1 and Z7s dont facilitate it's use with the supplied lens hood, or close up macro work - the Z7 macro is excellent incidentally)

Thirdly, any lens that can cause such abberation with just the most minor of incident light does make me feel there is something moving forward and back in the zoom system that is reflecting light around uneccessarily.

It seems like I might have seen that, but if you can post a clip or two that would be great. I am going into heavy shooting season and really need to figure this lens situation out...

Correct me if I am wrong, but I dont seem to be having this problem with my Z7U?? Here is a clip I shot today...1080i 60

http://www.vimeo.com/894765

I just got my camera 4 days ago brand new.

Correct me if I am wrong, but I dont seem to be having this problem with my Z7U?? Here is a clip I shot today...1080i 60

http://www.vimeo.com/894765

I just got my camera 4 days ago brand new.

cant tell by the clip. Your're zooming all the way out. You have to make sure your cam is in full manual. Zoom in, focus, zoom out about 25%. a good marker is to see as you are zooming out is that your iris should automatically go to 1.8. If it stays at 2.0 when zooming out then make sure you are fully open to 1.6 at wide before you zoom in.

Go to the camera menu then to the display menu then to Zoom display and change the setting from bar to number. Now your zoom will say 99 if you are zoomed all the way in, so now when you zoom out and your iris limit changes to 1.8 your zoom should be around Z75-80 which is at the 75-80% zoomed in position.

It seems like I might have seen that, but if you can post a clip or two that would be great. I am going into heavy shooting season and really need to figure this lens situation out...

Re: Lens Flare. I had a second Z7 (and indeed an EX1) to test today and BOTH Z7's exhibited the lens flare in the scene I described without the lens hood on. Seems it is as designed. When I have a moment I'll get a still image posted.

Based on my experience from photography, diffraction effects edge sharpness at small apertures, aberrations effects large aperture, a lens best quality is near the middle of F stop range.

A contolled test must be done to eliminate variables and test back focus

I have asked this question a couple of times, maybe Juan Martinez can answer, he seems to know alot about this camera as his presentation was quite knowledgeable

One thing I don't quite understand is this from Sony that states "To address back-focus concerns, the Zeiss 14X and 8X zooms maintain automatic back-focus adjustment (akin to the automated back-focus routine in the EX1's service menu)".

Bruce, is the problem worse fully zoomed out or do you also have problems into the zoom range?

Bruce, is the problem worse fully zoomed out or do you also have problems into the zoom range?

Just follow my simple instructions and it is almost certain your Z7 will have the same abnormality. Zoom in all the way on a lineup of a bridal party or any set of things that are the same distance from you zoom all the way in and focus on a subject and then set your zoom display from bar to meter and at 70-80% (Z70-Z80) zoom at F1.8-2.0 you most likely have 1/3 to 1/2 your screen blurred. Everyone I know that has done the test properly has seen it and it is bad.

Bruce, have you done the same test on another camera like a Z1?

Has anyone brought this to Sony's attention, yet? Any response?

I spoke to several Sony reps at their booth yesterday about my problems with the camera. I have focus issues following the bridal party down the aisle. I was told that it didn't sound normal and that two things to try would be to turn off Image Stabilization just for that part of the wedding to see if there is a chance. The second option was to adjust the back-focus. I also saw several people using the camera at NAB and asked them if they had those issues. None of them had, but none of them shoot weddings either.
We pretty much ended our NAB experience yesterday at the Sony booth, so that will be where we start back up today. I'm going to pose the same question to whoever is there today. I was also able to play with some really cool cameras yesterday. The EX3 looks kinda goofy and doesn't seem worth the money. From the Sony reps I spoke to about it, they didn't seem that impressed either. That being said, they did seem to favor the Z7. Thats all I have now.

-Chad out

If you read this in time, if Chris, Lou, or Atalay are at the booth, mention my name and these issues, and that they've all been confirmed by several users and such.