PANASONIC ANNOUNCES SOLID-STATE AG-HMC150
PROFESSIONAL AVCHD 1080 HANDHELD CAMCORDER

** Next Generation, Affordable HD Handheld Offers SD Card Recording, Three 1/3”CCDs, Enhanced Quality Recording Mode, 1080 and 720 with 24p **

LAS VEGAS, NV (April 13, 2008) – Here at NAB 2008, Panasonic added a powerful, new camcorder to its AVCCAM professional line – the handheld AG-HMC150. Building on the phenomenal success of the highly popular DV tape based, standard definition AG-DVX100 camcorder, the affordable HMC150 blends professional 1080 and 720 HD production capabilities and enhanced quality recording (at average 21 Mbps/ Max 24Mbps) with the simplicity and familiarity of SD card, digital still camera workflow.

With an exciting range of professional-level features and a sleek, compact design, the HMC150 can record hours of high-quality 1080 and 720 HD images onto solid-state SD and SDHC memory cards, at lower bit rates than current HDV compression formats. This new model offers an enhanced quality mode at average 21 Mbps (Max 24Mbps) that moves quality up even further. The AG-HMC150 camcorder utilizes AVCHD, the industry’s newest long GOP compression standard based on MPEG-4 AVC/H.264 high profile encoding (the same as Blu-ray HD players). AVCHD provides a near doubling of bandwidth efficiency and improved video performance over the older MPEG-2 compression used in HDV formats and standard definition DVD players. AVCHD high definition recordings look clean and clear, even during fast motion, reducing the image degradation or dropout associated with HDV.

Highest-Quality, Full HD Recording

Designed to be used in a variety of budget conscious production applications, the HMC150 records stunning high definition in four recording modes – PH mode (average 21 Mbps/Max 24Mbps), HA mode (approx.17 Mbps), HG mode (approx.13 Mbps) and HE mode (approx. 6 Mbps). It captures full horizontal resolution 1920x1080 images at its PH, HA and HG recording modes. The camera can also be set to capture 1280x720 images at PH mode. At its 6 Mbps record mode, it captures 1440x1080 HD images for extended HD recording at its lowest bit rate. The HMC150 supports a range of HD formats, including 1080/24p, 1080/60i and 720/60p.

This mainstream, production-level camera features native 16:9 progressive 1/3” 3-CCD imagers, enhanced by a high-performing digital signal processor with 14-bit A/D conversion and 19-bit processing. Its 13X Leica Dicomar zoom lens offers a 28mm (35mm equivalent) wide-angle setting (the widest in its class), a 72mm diameter, and a cam-driven manual zoom. The HMC150 provides auto or manual operation of focus and iris, and automatic optical image stabilization (O.I.S.) to ensure stable, smooth and precise shooting. It also features a range of selectable gamma functions including Cine-like gamma, making it well suited for cinema-like video production.

Extra-Long Record Times

With the HMC150, videographers can capitalize on the cost advantages, reliability, and widespread availability of SD and SDHC memory cards. Using just one 32GB SDHC card, users can record three hours of full pixel 1920x1080 video and audio at PH mode, four hours at HA mode and 5.3 hours at HG mode. In the HE mode, the camera can record up to 12 hours of 1440x1080 HD content – all on a single 32GB SDHC card. Panasonic also offers a variety of other SD and SDHC card sizes with Class 6 performance including 16GB, 8GB, 4GB, 2GB and 1GB.

Easy HD Playback on a Growing Number of Affordable Consumer Players

Content shot on the HMC150 can be played back directly on a wide range of widescreen flat panel displays, and front and rear-screen projectors, directly from the camera. Unlike HDV tapes, SD cards with HD content can be inserted into and played back on a growing number of affordable playback devices including Blu-ray players (like Panasonic’s DMP-BD30), the Sony PlayStation 3, and some new Panasonic plasma displays as well as computers with an SD card slot using applications that play AVCHD files. Using NLE software, content can also be edited and rendered in various formats and delivered on a wide range of media. Currently, AVCHD is supported by over 30 companies and implemented in numerous camcorders, NLE systems and consumer HD playback devices.

Professionals can instantly transfer content from the HMC150 camcorder to Mac or PC computers with an SD/SDHC card reader or by connecting the camcorder directly via its USB 2.0 interface. Other standard interfaces on the camera include HDMI out, component out (mini D terminal), composite out, remote jacks for zoom, focus iris and start/stop functions. The camera’s 3.5-inch LCD monitor displays content in thumbnail images for quick viewing.

The HMC150’s professional audio connections include XLR two-channel audio input (48V phantom power) with mic/line select, manual two-channel audio level VR and RCA audio out jacks. The camera offers waveform monitor display and an array of recording functions including time/date stamp, pre-record, shot marker, Index, time code/user bits and metadata.

Panasonic’s AVCCAM camcorder line-up brings the benefits of solid-state recording to budget-conscious professionals. Like digital still photography, recording onto SD/SDHC cards offer a fast and simple, file-based workflow with ultra-reliable performance and resistance to shock, vibration and extreme temperatures and weather. SD and SDHC memory cards are inexpensive and widely available and can be reused repeatedly. Since AVCHD records video as digital data files, content can be transferred and stored on affordable, high-capacity hard disk drives (HDD) and optical storage media and transferred to future storage media as technology advances.

The HMC150 will be available this fall at a suggested list price under $4,500.

The HMC150 will be available this fall at a suggested list price under $4,500.That's about a grand too high.

I love the new marketing term "AVCam" that Panasonic made up to distance itself form the negative press about AVCHD.

I am very interrested in seeing the picture quality of this camera at full bitrate, but I do agree that $4,500 is about $1,000 too much.

If the list price is ~$4500, hopefully the 'street price' will be under $4K.

Any indication what the native resolution of the sensors will be?

Exactly when is "Fall?"

Is it September? or December?

Exactly when is "Fall?"

Is it September? or December?

My guess would be late October or in November, but that is a good question.
I wonder if this camera will have the same chipset as the upcoming HVX 200A and HPX 170.

I read that it will shoot at 23 mbps with 1/3 inch 3-CCD sensors.

That should be interesting.

Wonder if the NLEs will deal with the stuff a little better.

Overall, though, the Panasonic offerings, to me, were fairly underwhelming

If the list price is ~$4500, hopefully the 'street price' will be under $4K.

Any indication what the native resolution of the sensors will be?

960x540 -- the same chips as used in the DVX200B. Very low noise - it looked very clean in the very dark Pana booth. Although, it would have been nice to see a move to 1280x720 chips.

The best thing -- an LCD waveform monitor. Oh -- and it's light and balanced unlike the EX1/EX3/Z7.

21Mbps average with peak to 24Mbps. AVCHD should now be equal to HDV. So much for the claim it's 2X more efficient. Actually, might well be better on than HDV on fast motion.

Yes -- I would hope B&H would have it for $3500 because the prices for all the new HDV camcorders are going beyond many/most budgets!

I really really liked this camera for 720p shooting. October 2008.

PS: it's AVCHD so it's going to be no different than for the NLEs. Apple will not edit natively -- always a convert to ProRes or AIC.

Exactly when is "Fall?"

Is it September? or December?
At the booth they said "September."

Keep in mind that when the HVX200 was announced it was a block of wood, and that shipped in December. The HMC150 they showed was already working. Probably in at least Alpha state, if not in Beta. So September is probably reasonable.

I agree that "under $4500" is still too high for this camcorder. I'm sure the weak dollar has a lot to do with the pricing.

I was hoping that the MSRP would be $3500, and rapidly drop to a "street price" of about $3000-$3200. If it's anywhere near $4000, I'll probably "bite the bullet" and go for the Sony EX1.

Any word on what frame rates this will shoot at?

2 things 1. I wonder how it will handle itself in low light espcially compared to my GY-HD100s and 2. Why would you guys say its too much? It seems pretty comparable to the HVX-200 in spec with the exception of the card (which is what I like the most about it) personally I think the cheaper the better but am I mising something this camera lacks?


Randy

This camera shoots AVCHD - which uses inter frame compression aka Long GOP at 21 (average) mbps with an apparent possible max of 24.

The Hvx shoots DVCPROHD - which uses intra frame compression and also runs at 100mbps (in 1080) which is just over 4 times the data rate as the top bit rate of the HMC150.

That would be you main difference

The DVCPROHD coming out of the hvx also samples colours with a colour space of 4:2:2. AVCHD only records 4:2:0, the same as HDV.

So the image is equal to or a little better than HDV? If thats the case my GY-HD110s still go for about $4000 and they use tape:( and suck light:( the Sony HDV line still goes for about about $5,000 to $6,000 why would we expect this camera to be cheaper? Did Panasonic omit some major features to keep this camera in the prosumer market?

Randy

Well due to the fact AVCHD is Mpeg4 (H.264) and HDV is Mpeg2 (an older compression method than h264, then it SHOULD be better than HDV.. however only time will tell... well time and testing.

The reason people are disappointed at the announced possible MSRP price is due to the fact that this camera is being touted as an DVX100 replacement.. and the dvx is a lot cheaper than $4500.

$3500-4000 is more where the camera will hopefully end up after a few months.

... this camera is being touted as an DVX100 replacement. The DVX100 is standard definition. This camera is high definition.

oh I see well it may be to soon for those kinda price drops in the HD world.

Upon further thought, I'll have to agree with Randy and Joe that the pricing for this unit is just about right on the mark.

I consult with new and emerging non-profits and faith-based organizations, and I was hoping for a "miracle" affordable camcorder that "has it all" that I could recommend to my clients. With all its limitations, that'll probably be the HMC70.

The DVX100 is standard definition. This camera is high definition.

Well yes of course Chris, and that reason IS why it will be priced higher.

I was just trying to explain why people are reacting like they are to the current announced price point.

I agree that "under $4500" is still too high for this camcorder.
Depends on how FAR under $4500. :) I'm hoping for a street price of $3500 and an MSRP of $3995.

I'm sure the weak dollar has a lot to do with the pricing.
You ain't kidding on that one. Everyone I talked to from Japan said the same thing. They won't quote a firm price largely, I believe, because there's no way to know what the exchange rate will be six months from now when the unit actually ships.

Any word on what frame rates this will shoot at?
720/24p, 720/30p, 720/60p, 1080/24p, 1080/30p, 1080/60i.

2 things 1. I wonder how it will handle itself in low light espcially compared to my GY-HD100s
Uses the same chipset as the HVX200A. The HVX and HD100 were about the same, noise and sensitivity-wise. The HVX200A is a half-stop faster (500 ISO instead of 320) and much cleaner in noise. You could probably gain up by at least 3dB, if not 6dB, before matching the HVX/HD100 noise level. So, as far as a practical matter goes, the 150 should (SHOULD) be around a stop faster for equivalent grain, maybe as much as 1.5 stops faster.

and the dvx is a lot cheaper than $4500. Well, it is NOW. But for the first five years of its life, the DVX was priced at $3795 to $3995.

Good point. I forgot about that.

Uses the same chipset as the HVX200A. The HVX and HD100 were about the same, noise and sensitivity-wise. The HVX200A is a half-stop faster (500 ISO instead of 320) and much cleaner in noise. You could probably gain up by at least 3dB, if not 6dB, before matching the HVX/HD100 noise level. So, as far as a practical matter goes, the 150 should (SHOULD) be around a stop faster for equivalent grain, maybe as much as 1.5 stops faster.


I assume when you say "faster" you mean "brighter" which means it may be anywhere from .5 to 1.5 stops brighter than the GY-HD100. thats a pretty big deal for me.

720/24p, 720/30p, 720/60p, 1080/24p, 1080/30p, 1080/60i.

No SD recording?

Standard definition recording is not an option with AVCHD camcorders.

Standard definition recording is not an option with AVCHD camcorders.
??? my Sony HDR-SR1 can record SD. Granted, the resulting file isn't AVCHD, but it IS an AVCHD camcorder ;)

Bufff, this means bye-bye DVD.
And I don't think that DVD format will dissapear soon. At this time, is the universal format to deliver video. How many time it will survive? I don't know, but sure one or two years, or more as "universal compatible" to deliver a work (very cheap and acceptable quality).
Yes, you can record HD and downconvert by software, but it means a lot of time, files, space on your computer.
SD option is great for conferences, INTERNET and a lot of works that don't requiere HD.
It's sad if camcorder makers ignore this niche.

my Sony HDR-SR1 can record SDI stand corrected then. It's not an option with Panasonic Pro-Line or Canon VIXIA AVCHD camcorders.

I'm perfectly ok with an all HD camera, even if Apple can't seem to ever bring a bluray burner and updated DVDSP to market.

All Digital Photo Cams can do from (more or less) 640x480 pixels to 8 or 10 or more pixel, with intermediate sizes.
An 8 megapíxels digicam doesn't have 6 or 8 megapixles option only. It's digital and don't record to tape.
Why quit SD option when you are recording on a SD card (it is not a joke ;))? Or less, something like 320x240 for DIRECT Internet. It's a firmware adding, the software of the machine.
SD is good for fast editing on a laptop or, why not, on future and every day more powerful PDAs. Insert the SD card in the PDA, simple video editor, upload to Internet by Wifi.
Work done.

For those interested, I've posted photos & known specifications on my WEB Page of the HMC-150:

http://web.mac.com/bobdiaz/Site/HMC150.html


Also, I have Podcasts of Jan (from Panasonic) and Barry Green talking about the new Panasonic cameras (including the HMC-150). The root to the Podcasts is here:

http://web.mac.com/bobdiaz/Site/Podcast/Podcast.html


I was also able to shoot a short video about the camera at NAB. You can find it on You Tube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X5Y45vjYlA8



Sincerely,

Bob Diaz

Also, I have Podcasts of Jan (from Panasonic) and Barry Green talking about the new Panasonic cameras (including the HMC-150). The root to the Podcasts is here:



Bob Diaz

Mr. Diaz

You don't know me from adams house cat but i happened across your pod-cast and have very much enjoyed them. I'm kind of a bigger tecno-geek than most videographers/Producers i know.

i especialy liked
sex, lies and video specs and the stuff with Jan and Barry green.

If i may be so bold i would love to hear your thoughts on a few additional topics.

pixel shifting vs true pixel for pixel scanning (especially as it relates to Panasonic's products)
and
how to preserve picture quality throughout the workflow from acquisition( in DVCproHD or AVCHD) to delivery (dvd or bluray) use intermediate codecs or suck it up and edit native.

anyway
thanks again and keep them podcast coming

Oh... one more thing, did you look at the HMC70? i know its not the "PRO" camera Panasonic makes it out to be but it may fit into the budget weddings and theater work that i do. (my high end folks can get the good stuff) and if so what did you think?

John Deaver
Birmingham, Al
mainstreetav@mac.com

Hi John,

While I went to NAB and was in the Panasonic Booth, I didn't spend any time with the HMC-70. Sorry about that, but with limited time (only 2 days), I wanted to spend the most time with the HMC-150 and the HPX-170. The images from the HMC-70 did look good, but I just didn't take the time to study them over carefully. Maybe someone else did get a chance to check out the HMC-70 and can comment on it.


I've added your topic to the list I keep of future topics to cover. I've switched to a once a week addition, because of the time it takes to produce each Podcast. You can expect an update somewhere around Friday night --> Sunday night. It will take 3 Podcasts to cover your questions and it should be up to 2 months before I can get to these topics.


Best Wishes,

Bob Diaz

Some here seem to think AVCHD will outperform MPEG2 but in general the admittedly budget entrants into the market have been plagued with quality problems. Because of the amount of processing power required to encode AVCHD the attraction of what could be a great aquisition format is being destroyed by cheap encoders that just can't handle fast motion or in some cases any motion at all - we are talking motion trails etc. I trust with the price point of this camera and those further up the Pansonic range that these issues will be addressed, but will it actually outperform MPEG2 Long GOP? Remember that codec has been implemented in cameras at higher data rates (than the 21Mb/s) and with more mature codec chips.

Because it's hard to encode AVCHD also uses a great deal of resources being decoded as well. Prepare to use an intermediate codec like ProRes or DnxHD or Cineform to edit your footage or buy that super beefy computer you've always wanted. Of course long GOP MPEG2 is challenging as well, but a little easier to decode. In this case I think Panasonic are at the bleeding edge and they should be congratulated on at least giving it a go.

However, and this is just my viewpoint, I just don't think pixel shifting is the way of the future. Sooner or later I think Panasonic will join other manufacturers in adopting full HD sensors in cameras with form factors like the DVX and maybe even smaller, especially now that technology is beginning to mature.

As far as the pricepoint goes it seems reasonable without being revolutionary, given that this camera will shoot squarely at event coverage and budget corporate work and some newsgathering. BTW does anyone know if this cam will sport an HD-SDI out?

Hi John,

IF we are talking about good quality CODECs, MPEG-4 AVC H.264 (AVCHD) will out perform MPEG-2. AVCHD has a lot more "tricks" to use to better compress the data. The extra processing power required to AVCHD is to be able to use as many of the extra "tricks" to compress the data.

On the other hand, if the AVCHD CODEC is done poorly, it won't stand a chance against MPEG-2.

At the highest data rate, the HMC-150 reaches 21 Mbps average and 24 Mbps maximum. Thus for the easy stuff with almost no movement, the data rate will be less than 21 Mbps, but if the movement becomes VERY complex, it can reach up to 24 Mbps.

The 24 Mbps of AVCHD maximum comes to about 96% of HDV's 25 Mbps data rate and the 21 Mbps average comes to 84% of HDV's 25 Mbps data rate. So, it doesn't take too much for Panasonic to generate a CODEC that will do far better than HDV.

Because there's more than one way to do AVCHD encoding, it's hard to say what the compressed file from the HMC-150 will be like. If they chose, CABAC, the compression is better, but it takes more processing power to play back. On the other hand, CAVLC doesn't work as well, but it takes less processing power to play back.

# Context-adaptive binary arithmetic coding (CABAC), an algorithm to losslessly compress syntax elements in the video stream knowing the probabilities of syntax elements in a given context. CABAC compresses data more efficiently than CAVLC but requires considerably more processing to decode.

# Context-adaptive variable-length coding (CAVLC), which is a lower-complexity alternative to CABAC for the coding of quantized transform coefficient values. Although lower complexity than CABAC, CAVLC is more elaborate and more efficient than the methods typically used to code coefficients in other prior designs.
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H.264/MPEG-4_AVC

Once the camera comes out around September --> November 2008, we'll be able to really test the CODEC and see if there are any real problems or not. My feeling is that Panasonic is NOT stupid and will make sure that only the worst of the worst will cause compression artifacts or at least MPEG-2 is going to break long before the the HMC-150 does.

I expect that the forums will have a lively debate over using using an intermediate CODEC vs. Native Mode Editing. I'll save my comments for a future Podcast, but I will say that the answer is not a simple one. there's a bit of give and take here as each solution is not perfect.

As for HD-SDI output, it a word, no, not for the HMC-150. You can see the photos I took at NAB of the HMC-150. If you want HD-SDI output, the 170 does offer it.

http://web.mac.com/bobdiaz/Site/HMC150.html


Sincerely,

Bob Diaz


Bob's Technical Comments

Audio Podcast

http://web.mac.com/bobdiaz/Site/Podcast/Podcast.html

Hi John,

IF we are talking about good quality CODECs, MPEG-4 AVC H.264 (AVCHD) will out perform MPEG-2. AVCHD has a lot more "tricks" to use to better compress the data. The extra processing power required to AVCHD is to be able to use as many of the extra "tricks" to compress the data.

On the other hand, if the AVCHD CODEC is done poorly, it won't stand a chance against MPEG-2.

At the highest data rate, the HMC-150 reaches 21 Mbps average and 24 Mbps maximum. Thus for the easy stuff with almost no movement, the data rate will be less than 21 Mbps, but if the movement becomes VERY complex, it can reach up to 24 Mbps.

The 24 Mbps of AVCHD maximum comes to about 96% of HDV's 25 Mbps data rate and the 21 Mbps average comes to 84% of HDV's 25 Mbps data rate. So, it doesn't take too much for Panasonic to generate a CODEC that will do far better than HDV.



Thanks for all the info Bob, much appreciated - my fear is that so far every implementation to date at the bottom end of the market has failed (and some of them use data rates between 14Mb/S-19Mb/s which is not too dissimilar), therefore Panasonic will have to implement a MUCH better quality hardware codec. That's why I'm adopting a wait and see attitude as well. I'm hoping Panasonic will make a killer codec chip for acquisition.

Thanks for all the info Bob, much appreciated - my fear is that so far every implementation to date at the bottom end of the market has failed (and some of them use data rates between 14Mb/S-19Mb/s which is not too dissimilar), therefore Panasonic will have to implement a MUCH better quality hardware codec. That's why I'm adopting a wait and see attitude as well. I'm hoping Panasonic will make a killer codec chip for acquisition.

I agree 100% with those sentiments. When AVCHD was first anounced there was this big proclamation that HDV/MPEG2 had been handed its hat and would be phased out fairly quickly, leaving HDV as more or less a short lived stepping stone in the transition from SD to HD. Sony's own literature stated that AVCHD at 9mbps was roughly equivalent to 25mbps MPEG2. Expectations were high.

Of course here we are quite some time later and I still don't see it. For comparison's sake the new Canon HF10/100 vs the HV30 is the closest horse race I can think of off hand and in this case the 17mbps AVCHD *still* doesn't equal the 25mbps MPEG2. And the AVCHD coming off the HF is the nicest I've seen.

And Sony - one of the AVCHD designers (with Pana) - was more or less expected by many to drop HDV and start delivering AVCHD very quickly. While they've pushed AVCHD in the consumer market, they'd done the *exact opposite* with their professional tools. Basically every pro HD cam they make now from $3,000 to $13,000 records MPEG2.


I'm also looking forward to seeing what Panasonic delivers with their new AVC encoder hitting 24mbps. My guess is we'll see the elimination of the mosquito noise inherent to MPEG2 and less breakup and/or softening during fast motion. Beyond that I'm not sure how much more to expect at these bandwidths. I looked at some of the Sony EX1** footage from DVInfo members and its absolutely amazing what 35mbps MPEG2 can deliver. I really think (and Sony seems to be applying this) that the lens, sensors and processing electronics are far, FAR more important than the codec being used.




** I would give up a vital organ to own one of these!

No question it remains the big unknown as to will the HMC-150 AVCHD CODEC really meet Low End Professional Standards or not.

Panasonic has a few things going for it:


(1) Improved CCD and not a single chip image sensor. The image coming into the CODEC is far better than other AVCHD Cameras, so right out of the starting gate, it starts off better quality. I tried to find the link to the video where I grabbed the frames to these still images, but I can't find the link. In the still images, you will see a reduction in the noise with the new CCDs that are found in the 200a, 170, and 150 cameras.

http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f103/KQ6WQ/CCD_Noise_1.png

http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f103/KQ6WQ/CCD_Noise_2.png

The images were designed to make the noise stand out, but even at maximum noise, the new CCD holds up so much better than the older CCD.


(2) Panasonic's bit rate is 24 Mbps vs. 25 Mbps of HDV (96% of HDV). With other AVCHD cameras 17 Mbps is 68% of HDV. It truth, it's a bit more complex than that, but I get into that issue later on. (I have a lot to do right now and I can't take the time to write it out.)


Bob Diaz

Bob's Technical Comments, Audio Podcast
http://web.mac.com/bobdiaz/Site/Podcast/Podcast.html

(2) Panasonic's bit rate is 24 Mbps vs. 25 Mbps of HDV (96% of HDV). With other AVCHD cameras 17 Mbps is 68% of HDV.

25mb/s is only with HDV 2. HDV 1 standard is 19mb/s. Plus you cannot just go by bit rate as the AVCHD codec is more effecient than HDV. I like to see comparative video between this camera and HDV cameras.

25mb/s is only with HDV 2. HDV 1 standard is 19mb/s. Plus you cannot just go by bit rate as the AVCHD codec is more effecient than HDV. I like to see comparative video between this camera and HDV cameras.

Hi John,

I would like to see the footage from the HMC-150, but the comparison will need to wait until the HMC-150 comes out. That should be around September ---> November 2008.

For now we are limited to a "paper comparison". In terms of AVCHD vs. HDV, AVCHD doesn't have to be a whole lot better to beat HDV.

Assuming 1080/60i mode for both:

The 25Mbps of HDV is 1.04x higher in bit rate than the HMC-150's 24Mbps maximum. Add to that the increase of the horizontal resolution from 1440 of HDV to 1920 of AVCHD, an increase of about 1920/1440 = 1.33...x. That comes to a total of: 1.04 x 1.33... = about 1.39x increase; let's say 1.4 increase.

Can AVCHD show an improvement of 1.4x over MPEG-2? Well, given that it can show a 2x - 3x improvement over MPEG-2, 1.4x does not seem like a big reach.


As for 720/30p, I don't know for sure if the 24Mbps of the HMC-150's camera holds true for that mode. IF yes, 24Mbps / 19Mbps = about 1.26x higher for AVCHD. Assuming a good quality CODEC for the HMC-150, I'd say that it will be far better than 720/HDV, but without additional information and the all important side by side comparison, I can't be sure.


Bob Diaz

Last year I bought a Sony SR7 ( which my daughter now has) and have recently got a SR11. The improvement in one year is very significant. In good light it is easily as good as my FX1 in HDV and a lot more convenient. I have yet to do a comparison with the SR11 set to 9mbps the only mode for 1440x1080 as the higher 17mbps is only 1920 x1080. The FX1 cost 4 times as much and so will the 150 when it comes out so they had better be a little better in performance!!!! I will do some more comparisons in the future but I am happy with the results so far certainly as a family cam. The main issue at the moment is editing. Converting to Edius HQ or any of the intermediates takes a long time on my AMD x2 4200 so am looking forward to my new computer!!! I am looking forward to the pro/prosumer cams like the 150 I am sure Sony will not want to leave this market open to Panasonic either.

Ron Evans

The 25Mbps of HDV is 1.04x higher in bit rate than the HMC-150's 24Mbps maximum. Add to that the increase of the horizontal resolution from 1440 of HDV to 1920 of AVCHD, an increase of about 1920/1440 = 1.33...x. That comes to a total of: 1.04 x 1.33... = about 1.39x increase; let's say 1.4 increase.

That all sounds good on paper, but it won't mean much until we see actual production footage from the camera. My guess is that the codec will work fine but the sensors will produce soft images compared to some HDV cameras, so that will remain a topic of discussion in making comparisons. And editing AVCHD footage is still a bit iffy, so it will be interesting to see how that shakes out in the next year or two.

In good light it is easily as good as my FX1 in HDV and a lot more convenient. I have yet to do a comparison with the SR11 set to 9mbps the only mode for 1440x1080 as the higher 17mbps is only 1920 x1080. The FX1 cost 4 times as much and so will the 150 when it comes out so they had better be a little better in performance!!!!

Be careful making comparisons of cameras in good light these days. Most of the small sub $1,500 cameras will look wonderful in bright daylight. My tiny HV20 looks as good or better than any $3,000+ camera on the market today in good light. The true test is how a camera performs when not shooting in optimal conditions. How far can you push it till it breaks? The answer on the little cameras is, not far.

My guess is that the codec will work fine but the sensors will produce soft images compared to some HDV cameras

I'd love to hear your rationale for that statement.

I also don't think sharper = better. I much prefer the image I can get out of a HVX200 over what I can pull out of a Z1 even though the HVX is obviously softer. That's a matter of personal preference though and can't really be argued.

I happen to think that the sensors will perform nicely since they are the same ones being used in the 170 and 200a. I do keep wondering if Panny will somehow cripple this camera so it doens't compete with it's 2 higher priced siblings. Hope not.

I'd love to hear your rationale for that statement.


You cut off the second half of his sentence, which totally changed the tone of his orginal statement. If the 150 is like the 200 and 170, then it will produce images softer than its HDV competitors. No one here is poo pooing that. But inevitably there will be pointless arguments after this camera comes out that "AVCHD is soft" (it isn't) vs "the camera is soft" (fine, but who cares when the images are stunning) vs "see, HDV is sharper!" (it isn't).

Fortunately Chris doesn't tolerate pointless bickering on this site, so we won't be subjected to too much of this when it hits ;)

To be blunt: we don't do format wars. Speculation is meaningless. What counts isn't numbers, but the quality of the recorded video. Therefore we'll know a lot more when these cameras start shipping.

In about 6 months, we'll be in a better position to judge the HMC-150. My understanding that the ship day is around September --> November 2008.

What we do know today is that the CCD is the same for the Panasonic 150, 170 & 200a. The lens is the same for the 150 and 170.

Barry Green did test the HVX-200a vs. the HVX-200 and posted his results for all to see: http://www.dvxuser.com/articles/hvx200a/

So, there's reason for me to believe that the CCDs found in the HMC-150 will perform reasonably well and produce good images.


The big unknowns are:

(1) Will the AVCHD CODEC work equal to or better than HDV? Maybe yes, because its compression efficiency only has to be 1.4x or higher. Still, this is up in the air until we can see the camera in action and do side by side tests.

(2) What will the work flow be like? This becomes a function of your system performance and software chosen. I expect that once the camera comes out, this will be a really hot topic. Moore's Law says that we will see a doubling in density of ICs every 1.5 to 2 years. (Moore said 2 years, but at times it doubled every 1.5 years.) While clock speeds won't double, the processing power of computers will double every 1.5 to 2 years. Over time, this makes it easier to deal with the extra processing required to deal with AVCHD.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moore%27s_Law


In the next 6 months Panasonic has time to try to get additional support for AVCHD in the different editing packages. Once the camera comes out, this should prove to be interesting to see how well they do as far as the total system package.

I'm going to admit my bias here, I really hope they can pull it all off. IF they can, that would help move the market from tape to tapeless at the lower end. Still, nothing is a given in life, so we shall see...


Sincerely,

Bob Diaz

Bob - excellent post.

I seem to remember that when HDV came out, people were wondering how in the world we'd edit it, and there was a lot of moaning about insanely long render times and other workflow issues. These were all resolved over time as processing speed got faster and NLE's support got better. I figure it'll be very much the same with AVCHD. Right now it's kinda painful to use AVCHD, but in another year or two it should be just fine and dandy.

As for how well AVCHD performs as compared to HDV, that's yet to be determined. I don't see why it shouldn't out perform an older codec, but up to this point it simply hasn't lived up to the billing for some reason. I happen to think they'll get it right, but at what cost? The whole point of AVCHD was same quality as HDV with much smaller file sizes, but with this camera they're bumping the bitrate up to 21 which is getting pretty darn close to HVD file sizes. My hope is that the processing improves to the point where we can begin to see some of those promised lower bitrates at HDV or better quality.

I too really hope this is a good camera.