Hi there,
Still learning the ropes... and wondering what's the best way to get rid of clips on a card once I've copied them safely to two locations.

I want to delete all the clips on the card, without deleting my saved camera settings.

I can use a setting in ShotPut EXpress to 'Automatically format card after offload completes', but I don't know whether this might get rid of my camera settings.

Someone mentioned using Clip Browser to delete all clips, but I won't use Clip Browser until I get back to my office at the end of a day of shooting.

It seems to me I have three choices:
1. use ShotPut EXpress to automatically reformat card
2. open the SXS card on my desktop and drag the BPAV folder to the trash (but this might get rid of camera settings too?)
3. delete all clips after I put the SXS card back in my camera.

What's the best way?
Thanks, malcolm

Thanks,
Malcolm

Reformat the card via the camera menu. It doesn't erase camera settings.

Paul.

Reformat the card via the camera menu. It doesn't erase camera settings.

Paul.

Wrong - prevents from continuous recording with slot switching/card wrangling!

Piotr, could you elaborate please? What problem is caused by reformatting the card in the camera?
What method do you use to reformat the card (in the field)?
thanks, Malcolm

Malcolm,

When you want the EX1 to record continuously, switching cards automatically upon filling them up - you cannot ask it to stop and re-format the card for you,, can you? Instead, you need to insert an empty, formatted card while it's recording to another slot.

Of course if you don't care for continuous recording, this reservation is irrelevant - you can use your camera to format the cards for you, if you want.

Camera settings saved on the SxS card are a copy of what has already been saved within the camera. Reformatting the card will not lose the settings in the camera, if that is what you are worried about.

If formatting in Shotput gets rid of everything (I don't know that it does that), you can always reload a copy of your camera settings from your laptop to the SxS card if needed later.

Pete

thank you Pete. I've now made a copy of my .SUF file onto my computer.
I've also emailed ShotPut EXpress to ask if reformatting the card deletes camera settings as well as clips.
I'll repost when I hear from them.
Cheers, Malcolm

Hi Piotr, just saw your note.
I think I see what you mean. But if I've copied my card(s) over while on a break (i.e. I'm NOT shooting at the time), then I'm o.k. to reformat the cards before putting them back into the camera, right?
When you say that reformatting the card in the camera "prevents/ continuous recording" (because of what you call "slot switching/card wrangling"), are you talking about someone trying to empty a card while the camera is simultaneously recording to the other card?
Thanks, Malcolm

I want to delete all the clips on the card, without deleting my saved camera settings.

2. open the SXS card on my desktop and drag the BPAV folder to the trash (but this might get rid of camera settings too?)
Malcolm

Drag the BPAV card to the trash, empty trash and eject the card.
Camera settings are in a separate folder *I think* named 'Sony'

Also, best to keep that folder with your settings on your computer or thumb drive in a safe place, on the off chance you accidentally delete and want to copy it back to the SxS card.

thanks Andrew... that solves things nicely.
Malcolm

When you say that reformatting the card in the camera "prevents/ continuous recording" (because of what you call "slot switching/card wrangling"), are you talking about someone trying to empty a card while the camera is simultaneously recording to the other card?
Thanks, Malcolm

Yes Malcolm - exactly, this is what I am talking about. Using only 2 8GB cards, I did a lot of projects where shooting continuously for several hours was involved - all this with a laptop of course (otherwise, I am a one-man business :)).

wow... that's got to be a bit nerve-wracking. I'll be working by myself, too, so I know I'll be having to do it. I might survive, if I have a plan written out, if not actually tatooed on my forearm, so I know exactly what to do.
On that note... here's your advice (from another thread) for downloading clips that might span two cards (which I've edited slightly for my own benefit):

"Because some clips can span two cards:
1. copy first card to BPAV folder on desktop
2. when you mount your other card, copy BPAV folder to the SAME folder on desktop - - not a separate folder or subfolder!
This creates the right structure automatically, and displays any combined files as single clips.
3. then, and only then, select your clips, and export to MXF"

Have I summed things up properly? (if I do end up tatooing instructions like these onto my arm, I want to make sure it's right, because every word is going to hurt!).

Cheers,
Malcolm

Yes Malcom, this is right - under one very important condition: that you use the Clip Browser COPY function, NOT that of Explorer or other OS tool!

O.K. Piotr,

I'm hoping this slight tweak to this workflow is o.k.:

I'm hoping to use ShotPut EXpress to copy my card contents to my desktop (and to external fw drive, and USB flash drive, practically simultaneously). I can certainly instruct it to copy the next card to the SAME folder(s)... i.e. no separate folder, no subfolders.

Then when I get back to my office I'll copy this folder into Clip Browser, and export to MXF.

My worry about this plan is what you just said about using the Clip Browser copy function only, and not the copy function of Explorer or any "other OS tool". ShotPut EXpress is an OS tool... so are you saying don't use it?

(I'm hoping you can get to their website so you can have a look; the only flaw I've found so far - - and I realize you may about to point out a second flaw - - is that I can't use it to reformat the card after copying off the contents... this would get rid of my camera settings (.SUF) too, which would NOT be a good thing)
cheers,
Malcolm

Malcolm
By no means do I imply that my method (which works for me) is better than what ShotPut is doing - the ability to copy to several media at the same time is a great advantage! So if I had this app, I am not certain if I wanted to change the way it's doing things - it's been probably well thought out...

Oh, and with coping each card into separate BPAV, it's NOT important which COPY functionality you're using! It's only crucial when saving all project under a single BPAV, where each take is placed into its own CLPR subdir by the Clip Browser copy.

Thanks for your patience with this Piotr, and anyone else who's been reading this. Now would you mind looking at this list? (some of it is specific to someone like me, who has to convert to MXF, but much of it pertains to most of the rest of you, I would think).
Is this, finally, the 'Perfect Workflow' for downloading cards in the field and then exporting to MXF, with all clips, even spanned ones, intact? I've attached a few questions, with an asterisk...

IN FIELD:

1) insert SXS card into MBP, launch ShotPut EXpress, copy BPAV folder to '[new name for each shoot]' folder on desktop AND to external fw drive AND to USB flash drive. (*should all three folders have the same name?)

- with each successive download (because some clips can span two cards):
when you mount your next card, copy BPAV folder to the SAME folder on desktop (and ext. fw drive and flash drive) - - not a separate folder or subfolder! This creates the right structure automatically, and displays any combined files as single clips. (*so, each successive BPAV folder will be placed in the same 'encompassing' folder, but within this folder, will each successive BPAV folder get its own distinct name? eg. BPAV1, BPAV2, etc.?)

2) corroborate that copy of files has been successful (check all three copies), then drag the BPAV folder from SXS card to the Trash

3) eject SXS card (Control-Eject; then power off card in menu bar)

4) put card back in camera and keep shooting...

then,

IN OFFICE:

1) launch VMWare and Windows XP

2) open My Documents and drag BPAV folder from Mac desktop into My Documents

3) launch Clip Browser. In Sony Clip Browser, search for the BPV folder in the tree on the left of top window (disregard the bottom window)

4) once found select all with mouse (not the copy all button at the top)...... right click and select EXPORT to MXF and copy to 'My Computer/Shared Documents/'EX1 MXF files'

5) copy this 'MXF files' folder from Shared Documents to a folder on MBP desktop

6) from here, copy to external SATA ("storage") drive. Remove storage drive and put away on shelf.

7) repeat: this time copy all media to SATA "edit" drives

8) start editing

Cheers,
Malcolm

Dear Malcolm,

DISCLAIMER:

Not knowing how ShotPut really works, I cannot confirm your workflow - I still cannot open the purchasse/download site

I think there may be a camera menu function to delete all clips and leave the camera settings file alone.

I believe I saw this on the Vortex DVD.

I think there may be a camera menu function to delete all clips and leave the camera settings file alone.
Yes, there is a delete-all-clips (which doesn't delete camera-data) and a format-media-function. And in addition you can use both while recording. In fact you can use almost every function of this camera while recording (for example altering picture-profiles or gain-presets).

For whatever reason, two threads are converging... I just posted this on the other thread, but we've been wondering about the same thing here, so...

Just got word back from the makers of ShotPut EXpress:

"The "reformat" only erases the contents of the BPAV folder. Your camera settings will be preserved"

I'm certainly not trying to sell their software for them. But it does seem to be a very useful tool (sorry, Piotr, that you aren't able to check it out for yourself). The camera does it, but SPEXpress makes it even easier. Maybe too easy? I still might feel the need to first check to make sure my copies are fine, and then (and only then) delete clips.
Cheers, Malcolm

Apart from the re-format problem (which you seem to have resolved), the question remains: does it, or does it not, allow to stitch split clips together into original takes, like the Clip Browser does?

I cannot tell, until I try the software :(

O.K., more information from the makers of ShotPut EXpress:

"ShotPut is copying the card’s contents “as is”. Because you do not merge spanned clips on the cards, there is no reason to be concerned with them during the copy process. The viewing application, such as FCP or Sony’s viewer, may auto-merge spanned clips. But they would want to “see” the virtual cards in the same format as they were on the cards themselves. In other words, unchanged. Just select the BPAV folders (or folders above them) in sequence during import and you should be fine. This makes for a good argument to use the Auto Numbering function in ShotPut so you know which card comes next"

"You should not delete the BPAV folder using Finder unless you plan to reformat the card in the camera. If you let ShotPut “reformat”—and it prompts you before it does it—the application will erase the contents of the BPAV folder but leave the folder structure intact"

seems good to me... what do you think?
Malcolm

From what they wrote, it seems it should be OK to keep exact copies of each SxS card on the HDD(s) (as opposed to my method of storing already merged, complete takes under a single BPAV per project); I don't know about Mac but on Windows, what I would need to do next is use Sony Clip Browser, mount the BPAV folders one by one (as saved to my HDD in a project folder), just as I would with the original SxS cards, and first copy the contents of all of them in a project to another location - Clip Browser would then stitch the spanned/divided clips; only then I could export to mxf's.

Quite a few steps compared to my method of "stitch-on-the-fly" when copying SxS card using just the Clip Browser,

...unless it can stitch automatically during export, as it find the other parts of divided clips in the same subdirectory, which it cannot do during exporting straight from a SxS card, in which case it would display the warning message "Clip incomplete" (or something to that effect).

OK, so thanks to Malcolm, I was able to give the ShotPut EXpress for Windows a test drive; here are my findings:

I recorded multiple short clips over two days; not much - just over 20 mins in total. It could well fit on a single card, but I deliberately switched the "Select slot" button randomly several times, so that the clips got divided between my 2 cards, to best simulate the worst-case, real life scenario.

Today I launched ShotPut EXpress on my 2.4 GHz dual core Vaio laptop; I configured it to use the usual video folder on its internal drive, as well as one on the external HDD, hooked up via USB 2.0. What I did was:

Using ShotPut EXpress:
1. Copy everything (card by card) to those 2 locations
2. Verify the copies and erase the SxS cards

Then, using Clip Browser:
3. Copy everything again from the internal HDD location to a new location on the external HDD, in order for the Clip Browser to re-connect seamlessly those split takes (an extra step !!!)
4. Export the final mxf's (ready for editing) from the external HDD folder to the final destination on the internal drive

I ended up having 2 independent archives (exact SxS cards' copies), one additional copy with clips stitched back (though physically on one of the same drives), and the final mxf clips ready for editing. Time to accomplish that was just above 20 minutes. Too long!

Using just the Clip Browser, with similar amount of data I usually need less than 10 mins (EDIT: actually 6 minutes - have just measured it) to:
a) COPY everything to the internal drive WHILE stitching any split takes
b) empty the two SxS cards before ejecting them (ready to use in camera)
b) EXPORT the final mxf's from the above to the external HDD, ready to bring to my studio, hook up to my main editing system, and start editing! And I still have 2 archives, on two separate drives...

I am not totally dismissing ShotPut EXpress yet; it'd be premature - for instance, I am not sure about the strength of the copy verification procedure - but from the viewpoint of time and simplicity, it's not a great solution. I guess it could be, should the authors incorporate clip merging while copying, and mxf re-wrapping - thus eliminating the need for using Clip Browser at all. But in its current form, the overhead required would increase with the length of the material to copy, and card wrangling while shooting continuously is a pain!

Thanks a lot, Malcolm, for enabling me to run the tests - it's a pity there is no TBYB version ! One thing in favour is that you can use the utility on any computer, in any place on Earth - the licence can be de-activated and actived at will through the Internet (this is how Malcolm could help me do my tests :)).

EDIT: I hear (mostly from Mac users) that stitching can be done on import (to FCP, I assume). Maybe so; for Windows though the NLE of choice for the EX1's stuff is still Vegas Pro and Edius. BOTH are better off if you feed them with ready mxf's rather than MP4's (Edius can be ingested with MP4's, Vegas is rumoured to be capable of it soon, as well).

Nevertheless, I'd need to see the results of stitching divided clips in any NLE to judge how good it can be, compared to what Clip Browser does on-the-fly (really completely seamless)...

With a Mac when you import files into FCP using the Sony Transfer tool the transfer tool merges split clips so the is no need to use the EX browser to either combine files or to create MXF's. So if you are going to make backups of your cards anyway you may as well use shotput as it will make multiple copies and VERIFY them. There is no time penalty, in fact shotput works out a tiny bit quicker as the copy and verification is done automatically.

If your not bothered about a BPAV/MP4 backup you could just import the clips with the transfer tool and then keep the .mov files as your backup.

If your having to work with MXF's on a PC then using Shotput or making BPAV backups first does introduce an extra step. However for me, I like to always have a 1 to 1 backup of my cards content. It's all too easy to miss a card or forget to copy a file. One card.. One folder with matching file sizes and file counts. Using the EX Browser to merge clips without making a backup leaves you open to problems as it is difficult to verify that your backup is correct and nothing is missing. Yes, agreed, it may be a little slower but I like to play safe with my footage.

Malcom The BPAV files must be called BPAV. You cannot call them BPAV1... BPAV2... so for that reason each BPAV folder must go in it's own sub folder.

Thank you Piotr and Alister...

Alister, I'm inferring that you're on a Mac. I am too, so in case any of these steps make more sense for a Mac-user, I'd like to ask you about my workflow in the field (I've removed the BPAV1, BPAV2 business... thank you for clearing this up):


WORKFLOW
before heading out on a shoot, create 'holding' folder, named for current project (eg. 'CCL June 2') on Mac desktop. Copy this empty folder to external fw drive and USB Flash Drive

IN FIELD:
1) attach and power up external fw drive and USB Flash Drive

2) insert SXS card into MBP, launch ShotPut EXpress, select 'holding' folders on Mac desktop, fw drive AND USB Flash Drive as targets; press go, and ShotPut EXpress will copy BPAV folder from SXS card into all three 'holding' folders. (*use the Auto Numbering function in ShotPut so each successive SXS transfer will create another BPAV folder in your 'holding' folder. This is important because some clips can span two cards, and it's vital to create the right structure; *by the way, should I ask ShotPut to rename the card, as it seems to want to do? What's the advantage of this?)
2) corroborate that copy of files has been successful (check all three copies), then use ShotPut to reformat the SXS card.


3) eject SXS card (Control-Eject; *do you also need to power off card in menu bar?)

4) put card back in camera and keep shooting...

How does that sound?
Cheers, Malcolm

Very important update on Shotput EXpress:

Both my cards required re-conforming on the camera, after having been "formatted" by the utility! A show-stopper for continuous shooting :(

This never happens with my old method of simply deleting all clips within Clips Browser!

Please anybody using ShotPut confirm or deny this is a rule, or just a coincidence here (I cannot repeat my tests).

I am bumping this one (sorry ;) - but I'd really appreciate somebody confirming (or denying), that after having ShotPut formatted an SxS card, it needs re-conforming before EX1 can record to it.

I only had a one-off opportunity to test the application, and both my cards - after having been "formatted" by the Windows version of ShotPut EXpress - couldn't be recorded to without my EX1 conforming them. Is it normal? If so, it'd mean that for continuous recording, one would need to launch the Clip Browser (or perhaps just the Windows Explorer - haven't tried that) to simply delete all clips from a card, rather than let ShotPUt format it...

Hi Piotr,

I'm on a shoot right now... when I next use ShotPut, I'll report back.
From what I recall, when I get ShotPut to reformat my SXS card (this on my MacBook Pro), when I next put the card back into the camera, I get a message asking:

'Media Needs to be Restored
Restore Media Now?'

... and I have a choice: Execute or Cancel. (I choose Execute)

I wrote to ShotPut technical help to ask why I have to do this, I was told that it's just the camera rebuilding the file directory... it's not reformatting the card.
Cheers,
Malcolm

Thanks Malcolm,

This is exactly what I am talking about - it doesn't happen when you delete all clips using the Clip Browser (at least under Windows), and you're able to use the card in the camera without the need to stop recording, and "restore" anything...

I am seriously considering purchase of the utility, but I think we should push those guys to straighten this up. An SxS card really doesn't need re-formatting; simply deleting everything under the BPAV folder would be enough, and make it possible to re-use it straight away!

Piotr,

You don't have to stop recording to do either a restore or reformat on the second card.

(This has been pointed out to you before).

You can do it "on the fly". Only takes a few seconds so you can find time somewhere where you are not busy with camera settings.

Cheers Vaughan

I don't ?

I'll need to check that :)

Hi Piotr,
You're right about pushing the ShotPut people to tweak this thing... I did write about having to "Restore" the Media - - a step that I would rather not have to do, and was told:

"I think the camera is just rebuilding the file directory to Sony's specification"

The fellow then said:

"I have noted this issue and will have it fixed as soon as possible", so that tells me that they also regard it as an unnecessary step.

Cheers, Malcolm

Thanks Malcolm!

As a side note, I was told to use Proxy Servers in order to get to unaccessible websites; I am trying to do so with Imagineproducts, but still no joy:)