Hi, I just matched my HV30 (using a colour chart and skin tones) to the XH-A1 and these are the settings that look most comparable to me (with all the 'image effects' on the HV30 off) :
GAM-N
KNE-M
BLK-P
PED -9
SET -9
SHP 2
HDF-M
HDV 0
COR 0
NR1 0
NR2 0
CMX N
CGN 0
CPH 0
RGN -21
GGN 1
BGN 7
RGM 13
RBM 12
GRM 4
GBM 4
BRM 11
BGM 8
For what it's worth.
Luc

Hi, I just matched my HV30 (using a colour chart and skin tones) to the XH-A1 and these are the settings that look most comparable to me (with all the 'image effects' on the HV30 off) :
GAM-N
KNE-M
BLK-P
PED -9
SET -9
SHP 2
HDF-M
HDV 0
COR 0
NR1 0
NR2 0
CMX N
CGN 0
CPH 0
RGN -21
GGN 1
BGN 7
RGM 13
RBM 12
GRM 4
GBM 4
BRM 11
BGM 8
For what it's worth.
Luc

Thanks for sharing that. I don't imagine that you're able to post images yet?

I would be keen to see examples.

Thanks for sharing that. I don't imagine that you're able to post images yet?

I would be keen to see examples.

No, not able to post images yet. Sorry. Good luck with the settings though.
Luc

Is it easy to make it a Custom Preset file we can load to the SD card? That would be wonderful!

Is it easy to make it a Custom Preset file we can load to the SD card? That would be wonderful!

I'll give it a try as soon as I can post attachements, Taky.

That would be wonderful! Just curious, so you are matching HV30 not in Cine mode, right? So all middle setting in Contrast, Brightness, and Color Depth?

That's awesome!

That would be wonderful! Just curious, so you are matching HV30 not in Cine mode, right? So all middle setting in Contrast, Brightness, and Color Depth?

That's awesome!

Thats' correct. My HV30 in it's factory settings is already much more contrasted and coulourful than the XH-A1. In fact, it gives a fantastic image right out of the box. I prefer high-contrast images. It remains a matter of taste, of course.

Just to make sure I read your post correctly... which of the two camera's did you adjust? Did you adjust the HV30 to look like the A1? Or did you adjust your A1 to look like the out-of-the-box HV30? Thanks!

HV30 doesn't have all those paremeters to adjust.

That's right, the adjustment possibilities of the HV30 are rather limited compared to those of the XH-A1. So the comparison is done with all the settings of the HV30 in 'neutral' and all the tweaking is done on the XH-A1. I have the preset file here, but I have to wait until I get 'attachement' prerogatives to post it. I don't know exactly when that is. My first post was 28 days ago, if I'm not mistaken.

Hey Luc... when you say HV30 'neutral', do you mean it's factory default? Or is there an actual 'neutral' setting that is different than the saturated and contrasty factory look of the HV30?

Hey Luc... when you say HV30 'neutral', do you mean it's factory default? Or is there an actual 'neutral' setting that is different than the saturated and contrasty factory look of the HV30?


I meant the hard, colourful factory setting. I happen to like this setting (because I'm used to concert photography, I suppose), but I can imagine that for many people this is too harsh. Then my preset on the XH-A1 won't please them, of course...

I've tried this preset in my XH-A1 and it has a very blue colour cast to it .. not at all like my HV20 which I'd expect to be similar to a HV30.

I've tried this preset in my XH-A1 and it has a very blue colour cast to it .. not at all like my HV20 which I'd expect to be similar to a HV30.

I'm sure Luc won't mind if you make your own adjustments ; ). BTW double check your white balance.

I'm going to try this out even though I don't have and HV30 haha, I just think it's interesting to see how unique of an image can be produced on the A1, one day actually figuring these variables out and creating my own preset.

Thanks for sharing

JS

No the white balance is fine, if I flick through my presets (I have 8 customised presets installed, one of which I use most of the time with punchy colours & my low light one I use when needed) colour is good till I reach this (HV30) one and it goes very blue. I wonder if Luc had his white balance preset to something non neutral when he created it. Try it and see what you think!

Looking at the values ..

RGN = -21
GGN = 1
BGN = 7

Red turned right down, blue turned up.

RGN = -21 => -1
GGN = 1
BGN = 7 => 3

Replacing these values gets nearer to the mark - could've been a typo on the -21

I've been tinkering with a preset to match the HV20 and have tried to compare a few different presets, in the attached picture is an actual screenshot from my HV20 (top left), Luc's preset (see top right) with my modification in above post .. this was just a rough guess to take out the blue colour cast, below (bottom right) is one of my favourite presets (LowLt-3dB) which is very similar to Luc's (with mod) though the values in the preset are very different. Bottom left is my current preset that I created and use regulary with a few tweaks to try to get a similar look to the HV20 - its still not right .. the greens are a bit lighter and it needs a bit more work on it. Failing light here puts paid to anymore experimentation so I have another go tomorrow!

I've been tinkering with a preset to match the HV20 and have tried to compare a few different presets, in the attached picture is an actual screenshot from my HV20 (top left), Luc's preset (see top right) with my modification in above post .. this was just a rough guess to take out the blue colour cast, below (bottom right) is one of my favourite presets (LowLt-3dB) which is very similar to Luc's (with mod) though the values in the preset are very different. Bottom left is my current preset that I created and use regulary with a few tweaks to try to get a similar look to the HV20 - its still not right .. the greens are a bit lighter and it needs a bit more work on it. Failing light here puts paid to anymore experimentation so I have another go tomorrow!

Looking at the mountains in the very back of the photos, the bottom right photo retains the best details.
So what are the values in this preset. I'd like to try it if it's for the XHA1. Thank you.

Or maybe I'm misreading the post, and the bottom right preset is Luc's with only the modification you have as above:
RGN = -21 => -1
GGN = 1
BGN = 7 => 3

Original HV20 : Top Left
Luc's modded : Top Right
My test preset : Bottom Left
LowLt-3dB : Bottom Right

Yes I noticed the mountain detail in the LowLt-3dB preset, by the way this was used at 0dB .. this preset might be a better starting point to replicate the HV20. Will post more details later.

Some may find this article from the BBC's R&D Department re: the Canon XHA1 interesting at http://www.bbc.co.uk/rd/pubs/whp/whp-pdf-files/WHP034_ADD25-Canon-XHG1.pdf

Ok , I've spent all day trying different settings and come up with 2 near matches, both using LowLt-3dB as a starting point but both ended up with different settings, but to me the end results are similar so I've posted both. The frame grab in the middle is from my HV20 in Auto mode.

Both are fairly close but not identical, anyone who has tried this will know what a long and labourious process it is as not all setting changes seem to take effect till it is committed to tape, then I import each trial into my editing software to compare scenes.

The shots taken with the XH-A1 are with no gain (ie: gain at 0dB) , Tv at 120th sec. Surprisingly the HV20 will take better shots in Auto mode than the XH-A1 as the A1 seems to default to a low shutter speed which makes for a not-very-sharp image at infinity focus. Camcorders were both handheld with OIS on.

Some of you may want to set NR1 to 0 but I've left it at Low for better lower light performance, and Preset 1 might look slightly closer (less blue) to the HV20 by making BGN= -1 (from 0).

If anyone can get a better match, please post results.

So Brian, let me check I've followed this correctly - the XH-A1 settings you quote above should let the XH-A1 match well with a similarly white balanced HV 20 or 30 (and 40 presumably) set to P, Tv or Av (but not Cine) mode?

Yes, I suppose you could match colours to most camera's given time and effort but for me I use a HV20 for cutscenes and I like the HV20 colours straight out of the box so getting a preset fairly close is good. I think I prefer Preset #2.

The original LowLt-3dB (by Wolfgang Winne) is an excellent preset, I think it is designed to be used at -3dB but I prefer it a little brighter at 0dB .. the values for this are ..

GAM N
KNE A
BLK P
PED -3
SET 1
SHP 3
HDF L
DHV 5
COR -2
NR1 0
NR2 0
CMX 1
CGN 20
CPH 2
RGN -2
GGN 0
BGN 3
RGM 42
RBM -15
GRM 0
GBM 15
BRM 10
BGM -1

I'd like to know exactly what altering settings for RGM, RBM, GRM, GBM, BRM, BGM does in reality as drastically altering these values doesn't seem to make a big difference to the end result - anybody clued up on this ?

I'm doing more testing on my HV20 Preset above - Preset #2 is my preference. On certain shots with my HV20 and XH-A1 I was getting some colour variations and I put this down to differences in white balance between the two camera's.
I've done some more tests - in the attached photo the middle two frame grabs are from the HV20 in P (Program) mode, the settings are identical to Auto (ie: standard/neutral) other than the whitebalance - as you can see the Auto whitebalance of the HV20 is drastically different from the Auto whitebalance of the XH-A1 whereas the Daylight setting of both camera's yields a similar frame grab (and the XH-A1 Auto whitebalance is the similar to its Daylight setting in this case!).

Conclusion: Don't trust the Auto whitebalance setting from your cameras, in this instance you can safely assume that with a reasonably bright but overcast day then the Daylight whitebalance with both camera's with this Preset will give an accurate colour match.
I've also included frame grabs from the HV20's Cloudy and Shade whitebalance presets for comparison.

Next test: Indoors.

PS: Only mod I've done from the my original preset is to make NR1=0.

Color correcting both cams depends also on:
. amount of available light / temperature
. using a wide converter on the HV30
. a wide or long shot
. the main color pallet in the scene
. using filters ( hmmm.. you know that)
. and finally the original settings

A wide or long shot with the A1 creates another 'look' then the same shot with the HV30, close is the HV30 detailed and rich, in the long shot you lose color quality to the A1.

I'd like to know exactly what altering settings for RGM, RBM, GRM, GBM, BRM, BGM does in reality as drastically altering these values doesn't seem to make a big difference to the end result - anybody clued up on this ?

The matrix settings can be read as: C1C2M = determines the amount of Color2 in Color1 objects. When you connect your A1 direct to a good TV set and you change those settings you can very well see the difference between -50 and +50 of those matrixes.

So altering say RGM (Red Green Matrix) will alter the amount of Green in a Red colour ? In my test making the RGM setting more towards +50 will make a Red colour more red and a -ve setting will make it less red (making it more orangey) without affecting other greens ! Looking at a lot of Presets on this forum most people seem to leave these settings at 0 .. possibly not wanting to tinker with these intricate settings.

I have done my own tests today matching an XLH1a (it's an XHA1 thread but since the a model share the same presets, I think it's relevent) and an HV30.

Indoor shooting using one tungsten Fresnel 1K light at 45°. Custom white balance using white card.

The first two frame are comparing the Cine_v preset on the XLH1a and the Cinema mode on the HV30. It's a close match but since I don't like the Cinema mode (too flat and unsharp), quite unusable.

On the second row it's the outsiden preset and some tweaking on the H30 as suggested by Taky Cheung on another thread (http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/canon-xh-series-hdv-camcorders/116560-color-matching-xh-a1-hv20.html). Close, but the XL has an orange cast.

The last three shots are using the suggestion made by Luc de Wandel for matching with the stock value of the HV30. This preset is really on the blue side, like Brian Pratt said, so I tweeked it on the last frame changing RGN = -21 => -1. I like it, it's close but I need to refine it a bit more.

Jean-Philippe, I would be very interested in seeing your results of further testing as I shoot with an XL H1a, XH A1 and HV20 and have tried for hours to color match them. I can get them close but the reds and blues between the HV20 and the other two cams are very different. The HV20 also seems to e much more contrasty which causes problems for the type of shooting I do which are stage shows under harsh spot lights.

Thanks,
Garrett

My second test to match the XH-A1 with the HV20. This time indoors under tungsten lights (typical non flourescent house lights).
This time I used Canon Console software which gives a live XH-A1 feed to compare with various frame grabs taken from a HV20 under different white balance settings, namely Auto, Tungsten and Manual white balance. HV20 in P (Program) mode with all colour/brightness/contrast etc variables set to off.

Attached screen shot shows XH-A1 manually white balanced with HV20 showing same scene using Auto and Manual white balance settings ( here both shots are reasonably similar to each other), the HV20 Tungsten wb shot (not shown) had a slightly more orangey cast to it but overall the colour matched fairly well with this preset in this scenario.

I now use 2 presets to match with my HV20, one (above) for Outdoor (daytime) and this for Indoor (under tungsten lights).

One thing to note is that the bluey coloured liquid in the bottle on its side (see screenshot) is in reality a more greeny colour but the HV20 see's it as shown in the screenshot, I've managed to replicate this in the preset without affecting the other blues and greens. Also if you prefer to use the HV20's Tungsten whitebalance setting then altering GRM from -10 to -16 and GBM from 45 to 32 will make the preset more accurate.

GAM N
KNE A
BLK P
PED -3
SET 1
SHP 3
HDF L
DHV 5
COR -2
NR1 L
NR2 0
CMX 1
CGN 17
CPH 2
RGN 1
GGN 0
BGN 4
RGM 31
RBM -11
GRM -10
GBM 45
BRM 17
BGM -26

Brian,

Can you please clarify which preset you use for outdoor....you just say above. Is it post 21 or 23?

Thanks for your time in testing and sharing your results.

regards,
Michael

Its Preset #2 in post #21 .. I'm going to do some more testing on this with other outdoor scenarios and fine tune it some more with Canon Console, give me a couple of days to do this.

I've made another effort to get the outdoor preset of the XHA1 to match the colour of the HV20 (see attached frame grabs), this time a natural daylight test (a well-light window sill on a cloudy day). I took several shots with the HV20 using different white balance settings .. Cloudy, Daytime and Auto. The HV20's auto setting can usually always be ruled out as it shows too much contrast and a blue colour cast, closest match to my original XHA1 outdoor preset (#2 earlier post) was the Cloud setting. Now I have benefit of Canon Console to more closely match I have modified this preset to the values below, most noteable alteration was reducing GGN (Green Gain) from 4 to -2 .. this darkened the greens to match the HV20's and I also tweaked RGM and GBM.

My recommendation is to use the Outdoor Daylight preset (below - which I call 'HV20-out' ) and set the XHA1 to either Daylight or Auto white balance (both are accurate and similar) and set the HV20 to P mode with its white balance set to Daylight or Cloudy depending on the conditions (but not Auto)

Indoors and under Tungsten lights use the Indoor Tungsten preset (also below - which I call 'HV20-in' ) and set the XHA1 to either Indoor or Auto white balance (again the XHA1 is quite accurate in Auto wb mode) and set the HV20 (in P mode) to Tungsten white balance.

INDOOR Tungsten (Left Column)
OUTDOOR Daylight (Right Column)
GAM: N , N
KNE: A , A
BLK: P , P
PED : -3 , -3
SET : 1 , 1
SHP : 3 , 3
HDF : L , L
DHV : 5 , 5
COR : -2 , -2
NR1 : L , 0
NR2 : 0 , 0
CMX : 1 , 1
CGN : 17 , 9
CPH : 2 , 2
RGN : 1 , -3
GGN : 0 , -2
BGN : 4 , 1
RGM : 31 , 37
RBM :-11 -12
GRM : -16 , 0
GBM : 32 , 10
BRM : 17 , 10
BGM :-26 , -1

In most circumstances the HV20 makes reds more orangey than reality and greens darker than reality, these presets are designed to replicate that for a good match.

PS: If you want to darken the greens a touch more in the XHA1 Tungsen preset then alter GGN from 0 to -1 or -2 depending on your preference!

Downloads (bottom):
PRESET01.CPF is 'HV20-out' (daylight) &
PRESET02.CPF is 'HV20-in' (tungsten)

In the post above I managed to match the colours in the picture but when I tried the preset in a landscape shot it didn't match at all, infact a preset that may match the HV20 in one situation can look wrong in another. I'm more interested in matching a 'landscape' type shot so I started again basing the preset on the one in post #21 and settled on the following ..

GAM N
KNE A
BLK P
PED -3
SET -2
SHP 3
HDF L
DHV 5
COR -2
NR1 0
NR2 0
CMX 1
CGN 9
CPH 2
RGN 0
GGN 4
BGN 3
RGM -8
RBM -15
GRM 8
GBM 2
BRM 13
BGM 10

.. This is used when the XHA1 in set to 'daylight' white balance and the HV20 is in P mode, daylight white balance and Custom set to ..
Brightness= 0
Colour Depth= -ve
Sharpness = 0
Contrast = -ve

I still use the Tungsten preset as above, I hope this is some use to someone.

New Preset 'HV20-out' below

You may rest assured that I will be using it. You have my thanks for all your hard work. I've been using the presets with an HV30. It really cuts down on the coco in post.

I've made another effort to get the outdoor preset of the XHA1 to match the colour of the HV20 (see attached frame grabs), this time a natural daylight test (a well-light window sill on a cloudy day). I took several shots with the HV20 using different white balance settings .. Cloudy, Daytime and Auto. The HV20's auto setting can usually always be ruled out as it shows too much contrast and a blue colour cast, closest match to my original XHA1 outdoor preset (#2 earlier post) was the Cloud setting. Now I have benefit of Canon Console to more closely match I have modified this preset to the values below, most noteable alteration was reducing GGN (Green Gain) from 4 to -2 .. this darkened the greens to match the HV20's and I also tweaked RGM and GBM.

My recommendation is to use the Outdoor Daylight preset (below - which I call 'HV20-out' ) and set the XHA1 to either Daylight or Auto white balance (both are accurate and similar) and set the HV20 to P mode with its white balance set to Daylight or Cloudy depending on the conditions (but not Auto)

Indoors and under Tungsten lights use the Indoor Tungsten preset (also below - which I call 'HV20-in' ) and set the XHA1 to either Indoor or Auto white balance (again the XHA1 is quite accurate in Auto wb mode) and set the HV20 (in P mode) to Tungsten white balance.

INDOOR Tungsten (Left Column)
OUTDOOR Daylight (Right Column)
GAM: N , N
KNE: A , A
BLK: P , P
PED : -3 , -3
SET : 1 , 1
SHP : 3 , 3
HDF : L , L
DHV : 5 , 5
COR : -2 , -2
NR1 : L , 0
NR2 : 0 , 0
CMX : 1 , 1
CGN : 17 , 9
CPH : 2 , 2
RGN : 1 , -3
GGN : 0 , -2
BGN : 4 , 1
RGM : 31 , 37
RBM :-11 -12
GRM : -16 , 0
GBM : 32 , 10
BRM : 17 , 10
BGM :-26 , -1

In most circumstances the HV20 makes reds more orangey than reality and greens darker than reality, these presets are designed to replicate that for a good match.

PS: If you want to darken the greens a touch more in the XHA1 Tungsen preset then alter GGN from 0 to -1 or -2 depending on your preference!

Downloads (bottom):
PRESET01.CPF is 'HV20-out' (daylight) &
PRESET02.CPF is 'HV20-in' (tungsten)

Thanks for this hard work and am using this preset with my HV20. I am finding that the indoor preset overall is very close to the HV20 but reds in the preset are too orangey. I manually set white balance in both cameras as general practice. What setting would I adjust in preset02 to make reds to be less orange/more red?