Hi there. I am going to purchase a light kit, but am unsure of whether to go with Kino Flo or Arri. I know that the Arri kits are Tungsten, and that I will get more lights for my money, but the Kino Flo are attractive because fluorescents use less power and are cooler than Tungsten kits.

I am shooting horror films and drama mainly. I want to achieve a soft, creepy look. My budget is around $3000 cad. Keep in mind that this is just my first kit, a sort of bread and butter one that will allow me to do nice three point lighting.
The films will be shot with an EX1.

I was looking at these kits:

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/167145-REG/Arri_571991_Softbank_IV_Tungsten_5.html

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/489865-REG/Kino_Flo_KIT_D42_120U_Diva_Lite_400_Universal_Two.html

If I buy the Kino Flo kit, I will need to purchase some fill lights, so it will be more expensive. Not coming from a background in cinematography, this all seems rather daunting. Any and all advice is much appreciated.

Rent before you buy.

You really need more lighting experience before spending that much money. Everyone's needs and tastes are a little different, so it's difficult to have a conversation about "what's best for horror and drama".

I happen to think that a kit of perhaps 2 650w Fresnel and 2 Arrilite (and some reflectors, c-stands, flags, sandbags... etc.) is incredibly versatile for its size... but there are plenty of people to say otherwise, and they're not wrong. A hard light can always be made soft with diffusion or reflectors, but the only way to make a soft light hard is to move it further away...

I have the Arri kit less the 1k Arri-lite. It is amazing and versatile. We shot a feature with this kit and it we dropped every light, bent every post, and tripped over every cord and all the fixtures still work (bulbs needed replacing though).

My favorite of the kit is the Chimera. Absolutely quintessential for a fill and I leave the 650 setup with Chimera at all times. This in my mind emulates a Kino. What you buy with Kino is the interchangeable color temperature bulbs, cool to the touch use and minimal weight. All of these are for sure a plus but does it justify the price? Depends on your budget and DP, skill-base.

Seth is completely right about getting the bounce, c-stands, sandbags, maffer's, ect. These items are almost as important as the lights themselves. That is great advice also to get your hands on the equipment before you plunk down.

-C

You're comparing apples and oranges there. Fluorescents are softlights. They're great but more limited in what you can do. You might consider one 4-bulb fluorescent for a softlight to use with fresnels or other hard lights. You might want to check out http://www.coollights.biz . It's a reputable place and the owner posts on here periodically. You can get lot more lights for your money there.

Interesting. I would rent, however, I don't know of any equipment rental houses in my area. Also, I figure that if I get high quality lights, such as the Arris, the only reason they would not give me the results I need would be due to my lack of lighting experience, and not from any limitations inherent to the lights themselves. That being said, I don't want to screw around with cheap Lowel stuff, when I can afford better quality gear.

Interesting. I would rent, however, I don't know of any equipment rental houses in my area...Where in the Great North are you located, Spencer?...Also, I figure that if I get high quality lights, such as the Arris, the only reason they would not give me the results I need would be due to my lack of lighting experience, and not from any limitations inherent to the lights themselves...Well, that's an interesting thing. It's kinda' true, but a good lighting camera operator sees with his/her eyes how the camera will see the scene, and will supplement existing lighting. A well-lit scene results more from knowledge & skill than equipment.

Vancouver island B.C.

Well, that's a big island. If you are in/near victoria, you might contact this co., I think they do rentals as well as production services:
http://www.pastiche-productions.com/

Of course Vancouver is a huge production centre, if pretty inconvenient for a day rental. But some Van rental cos. probably ship out to Victoria (does the ferry service carry package freight?) Or, combining a weekend rental with a trip to Vancouver could be worthwhile research.

Another reason to rent - hanging out at the rental counter and talking with the staff about who is using what equipment for what kind of productions can be very educational.

Vancouver island B.C.

Spencer:

If you have never shot with Kinos or any fluoros, you may be surprised at how quick the falloff is on those instruments. You have to get them pretty close to the subject to be effective and soft.

To me, for horror, I like a lot of shadows and harder light anyway but it sounds as if you may find a tungsten Arri kit a little more versatile. I have both but use the Arri kit 80% of the time versus 20% for the Kinos. But then again, I shoot mostly docs and interviews, not horror movies.

Best of luck,

Dan

You guys are very helpful.

I don't venture into Vancouver often, mostly because driving in that city makes me want to pull my hair out, but that place in Victoria is interesting. I'll give them a call. I think I am going to go with the Arri kit.

If I buy that kit though, what other peripheral things will I need? Bounce boards, gaffer tape, ac cables etc? Do I need a balast for it? What about a system that can dim the overall light levels?

IMHO, the perfect utility light kit was a mix of instruments. I own a 4 piece Ianiro redhead kit for larger lighting assignments but my go to kit is my 5 Lowel Prolight kit (less wattage in tungsten equals less heat) with a Lowel Rifa softbox for diffuse light. I will likely get the fluorescent option for the Rifa this summer.

And the discussion of fluoros being soft light is bang on. Virtually useless for hairlight without EXTREME flagging.

For three (four) point interview lighting:
- I use an umbrella bounced hot light (typically on the far side of the face - very slimming) for key;
- Softlight down a stop to a stop and a half from keylight for fill (near side of face);
- Hairlight from key side and above, sometimes gelled for effect (straw for blondes, purple or blue for brunettes);
- Background light I'll normally put a coloured gel on and flag or use barndoors to cut for a slash.

Fluoros would be great for base light to bring up the overall lighting and then create "hot spots" with smaller tungsten instruments.

In terms of what else to get:
C-stand with 40" arm for extending hairlights;
Sandbags;
Gels (correction and effects);
Extension cords (duh!);
Umbrellas and holders;
Gel frames instead of using clothespins;
Dimmers are problematic; The cheap ones don't allow for constant colour temp (as voltage drops, so does temp. Also useless on fluoros which are ballasted) and the expensive one can cause RF interference/buzzing in audio.

Of course, all this dissertation is fairly specific to seated interviews. If that's not what you do, please disregard <grin>.

I am shooting features and music videos.

Ah, then baselight from Fluoros will do you well, young Jedi! Get some fresnels for focusing as well then.

For horror, Fresnels would be the most versatile lights, lots of control and you can soften as required with diffusion etc.. Fluorescents aren't that easy to control and you need lots of flags, but are great as part of a lighting package.

For a one off production renting makes sense. Ask about a deal on the rental package, discounts are extremely common.

I cannot afford to rent a lighting kit, because I am not shooting one-off features. They are being shot mostly on weekends, and typically take us around 5-6 weekends to finish shooting. It is not cost effective for me to rent gear.

Does anyone know of some good books to learn about different lighting techniques and/or some instructional dvds or internet resources? I can't wait to improve my video.

Renting is good. Personally, I don't think you can go wrong buying a couple of 650 watt fresnels though. They won't do everything, and you'll still have to rent, but you'll use them on probably every shoot you ever have, so why not just get 'em and get it over with?

Ross Lowell's "Matters of Light and Depth" is the de-facto standard tome for lighting.

http://www.lowel.com/book.html

for bang for buck.... par 64 cans are hard to beat.

http://www.fullcompass.com/product/286836.html

I have at least 10 of these and they work great for street scenes at night..... very light... focused 500w spot... cheap as a lap dance and take a beating and still work.

Also... I really don't think one could own enough lowel pro lights.... you can put a bunch of these little suckers in a bag and be ready for anything. They are so small that they don't need much of stand to sit on. Lowel also sells a daylight lens for them.

But... if you wanna impress the ladies.... a van full of Mole tweenies, solarspots, and zips and a rack of c-stands is like pull'n up wearing black cowboy boots in a 64 GTO with open headers. Moles will make any city street look like a hollywood budget set.... but they also might attract the permit cops.

I will pick up a copy of Lowell's book asap.

As for Lowels...I hear nothing but negative things about them. Mostly that they break easily. Is there a difference in the actual light quality with the Lowels over the Arris? Or is it just that the Arris are way better built?

Lowell is okay. Arri and Mole are on a whole other level though, and well worth the extra bucks. As far as breaking, yeah, Lowell products aren't as robust, but unless you abuse your gear you can certainly rely on them. It's decent enough stuff. I like Mole myself. Most small budget productions I've seen use Arri almost exclusively though. It has a reputation (not necessarily true) of being more compact and light than Mole.

If Lowel lights meet your needs they are fine for a single user owner/operator. They get low marks in multi-user environments because they are built very light. Rental companies hate them for this reason. However, many people use Lowels very successfully. They are engineered well.

The Pro is a very fine small fresnel-like light, about 300w. The Rifa is an excellent softbox, there's nothing quite like it on the market (Rifa 55 is the min. size I'd want). The Omni is about half the light an Arrilite is, small open face lights like that are usually used with reflectors or diffusion. It's OK. The Tota is a beast, hard to control, puts out a lot of light in a small package.

Arri is very popular in rental cos. because they are built well, perform well, and are generally accepted by renters. Arrilite is as good as a small open face light gets, likewise the Arri Fresnel 650 is a fine example of a small fresnel.

I'll second the comment on the Rifa. If there's one Lowell product I wouldn't mind owning, that'd be it. As annoying as Totas are, they're cheap, and as mentioned throw tons of light for the price and size. They have limited use though -- in an umbrella, or bounced off the ceiling to raise ambient light. It's a good idea to keep a couple around, but don't try and make them do more than they're designed to do.

Hey Spencer, I was rereading your earlier post about wanting a "soft, creepy look," and you know many (most?) horror movies (and typical night scenes), are actually high contrast. There are no softbox-like practicals in the woods!

One more thing, about renting. If you plan to shoot on weekends, that's when renting makes the most sense. You typically get a 1-day rental for a pickup Friday and a return early Monday. I know it seems like renting is just throwing money away, but at least you'll learn what you really need and don't. Buying just one piece of expensive gear that turns out to not be as useful as you thought it would can really mess up the budget.

I see where you are coming from Marco...and that is why I want to find what I call a B&B kit. (bread and butter...not bed and breakfast). A kit that contains most of the absolutely requisite lights for most shooting situations.

Does anyone know if the actual quality of the light the Lowels give is lesser than the Arris, or is the difference only in build quality?

Lighting design trumps build quality. Do Arri and Mole fresnels actually look better than Lowell? I kinda think so, but the big difference (as with everything) is how you use them. What would I consider a basic kit? It's already been mentioned in here. Two 650 watt fresnels, and two 1 K fixtures, either fresnel (big and heavy) or open faced (but must be focusable). Throw in lots of stands, gels, flags (especially flags), sandbags, etc. Remember you can lamp down the lights, so this same kit can convert into two 300 watt fixtures and two 500 watt fixtures, or something in between as needed. Personally, I prefer to buy stuff that will last a lifetime, so it's Arri or Mole for me. One word on the Lowell Pro -- as a sound person it has given me real problems lately. The one on the movie I'm currently wrapping on makes a steady tick, tick, tick sound as it heats up and cools down. Maybe this one has just been abused and if newer ones don't have that problem I apologize for making generalizations. Also, I don't like the scrims on the Omni. The round scrims for the Arri and Mole are just a lot easier to drop in and out of the front of the light. Little things like that can make a big difference on your stress level on a movie set.

The cheap side of me is tempted by the Lowel kits...but the other side of me is still very interested in the Arri Softbank IV. If I do go with the Arris, what types of reflectors and other peripherals are going to be required? If you could list specific products that would be most fantastic.

[QUOTE= you can lamp down the lights, so this same kit can convert into two 300 watt fixtures and two 500 watt fixtures, or something in between as needed.[/QUOTE]

So any Arri light will work in an Arri fixture as long as it is not exceeding the fixture's maximum wattage?

"So any Arri light will work in an Arri fixture as long as it is not exceeding the fixture's maximum wattage?"

No. But you can buy different wattages for a given fixture, up to a point. I know more about Mole than Arri, as that's what I have, and you can only go down to 500 watts with the 1K Baby. One interesting light (my favorite light in fact) is the Mole midget. You can lamp that sucker all way down to 75 watts, or all the way up to 250 watts. Because the lens is so large (the same size as the 650s), you can change the intensity greatly by focusing in and out. I also like that it shares the same barn doors and scrims as my 650s.

But hey, I'm a sound guy! I don't want to come across like I'm an expert at lighting. It's an as needed kind of thing for me.

You know, a softbox is a really big outlay. What about renting (that again) kinos for those days when you need them? You could buy the hardlights, minimizing your rental costs. Kinos are great. They don't heat up the place so much, and being way, way thinner are a lot easier to get in position. But man are they expensive. Also, I see most people shooting through large scrim fabrics when they want diffusion anyway. You could add some of those to your kit way more cheaply than buying a full-on softbox. Again, as mentioned, the Rifa is a great little low-cost softbox. It's a breeze to set up too, unlike pretty much anything else out there.

One point that nobody has brought up in this thread (surprisingly) is that Lowels for the most part are open face lights while most of the Arris and Moles that we are discussing are Fresnel instruments. If you are a newbie, this won't mean much to you but basically open faced lights have a harsher light quality than a light passed through a Fresnel lens.

A Fresnel light can be focused and many of us feel that the lenses and lens material used by the various manufacturers lens a different quality to the light, hence when I line up an Arri 650, a Mole 650 and a DeSisti 650, all Frsenels and focus them all on the wall next to each other, I will notice significant differences in the throw, pattern, softness, etc. Perhaps even the color temp slightly.

Bottom line is that open faced lights are harder to control, especially for a newbie without proper grip gear like solids, nets, scrims, etc. Open face lights are superior for sheer, raw output at the same wattage as a Fresnel and open face lights are superior to use in a Chimera, because you don't want to focus the light in a softbox very much typically. This is why some of the kits have both Fresnels and open face lights, the open face is designed for the included Chimera while the Fresnels are designed for other purposes like throwing up patterns and lighting up BGs.

Lowel lights are not bad but are not constructed as well as Arris, Moles, Kinos.

My advice, even though it is difficult for newbies, is to build your own lighting kit. All in one kits are just an average compendium of stuff that is supposed to work for most situations, most of the time. The best kits are the ones custom made for your shooting situations. There are a few links on the web from guys who have assembled their own kits. I have an Arri kit as well as a lot of other lights and I even end up assembling my own because rarely do I use everything in the Arri kit and I often need things that are not in the Arri kit, other lights, modifiers, etc.

There is/was an Arri Softbank IV used on the DVX User Marketplace yesterday, not sure if it is sold yet.

Good luck,

Dan

One point that nobody has brought up in this thread (surprisingly) is that Lowels for the most part are open face lights while most of the Arris and Moles that we are discussing are Fresnel instruments.

Lowel makes fresnels and Arri Redheads are open faced so this statement COULD be a bit misleading to "newbies".

A fresnel fixture has a glass lens with concentric "rings" on the front of it which help to focus and align the light emitted from the hot filament contained in a vacuum which produces the light. No ringed glass lens, it's not a fresnel.

Dan said "for the most part." Its only considered misleading if you miss that.

He's right in that pretty much all of the standard or ubiquitous Lowel kits are open-faced lights and newbies are interested in kits quite often. Lowel fresnels (or "Fren-L" as they call it) are not even prominently displayed at dealers of Lowel gear. Has anyone out there even seen one of these? I know they exist but I've never seen one in use. No where near as common as a Mole or Arri type. In addition, a fresnel is not just a fresnel because it has a "fresnel" concentric circle lens on it, it also includes a focusing mechanism too. The focusing mechanism allows you to create a wide or narrow spot beam. A fresnel is in the spotlight class of fixtures. An open face is in the flood light category. Any studio lighting will fall into one of those two categories. They all have their place for various uses.

Definitely sounds like you want more hard lights than soft lights for the work you want to do. Well-defined shadows and throw or projection are what you need.

As far as open faced or fresnel type fixtures, IMHO, there is very little to separate any open faced tungsten fixture from a halogen worklight. Perhaps there's a focusing mechanism (but just as likely there won't be) or perhaps there are barndoors but when you get right down to it they are both open faced lights. It's the barndoors or focusing mechanism that add hundreds of dollars in some cases to the price as the "value-added" to justify that. The "pro" version may also have a 3200K bulb whereas the worklight has a 2800K (or so) bulb. The bulb can easily be replaced with a color correct version though.

For shear throw, hard light output and focusing capability, a fresnel or "spot" type instrument is better bang for the buck, offers more control, and you can find them from so many different manufacturers both new and used. Used can be a very good value for a "newbie." Don't ignore building a kit from used gear. Ebay is a good resource for finding used fixtures. Just watch the feedback ratings of the various sellers and compile a list of questions to ask them to make sure they have included all the proper information. Example questions would be:

- Does it include barndoors?
- Does it include scrims?
- Have you tested and verified the instruments and all their accessories are working?
- Does it include bulbs?
- Are there baby stand to yoke adapters on the yokes and is all mounting hardware included?
- Is the wiring in good condition (visibly)?
etc.

Also, something like our well-appreciated, Cool Lights CL-MF0150 metal halide fresnel is an interesting choice in that it is daylight or tungsten colored with just the change of a bulb, draws only 150w but puts out 650w worth of light and comes in a fresnel package. It's not quite in HMI class because it doesn't do hot restart but it gives all the other advantages of HMI without the huge price differences. This is quite a unique offering in the market. Metal halide/HMI is kind of the "fluorescent of hard lights" as I call it thanks to its energy efficiency and also while the bulb and fixture get quite hot, the beam output of such a fixture doesn't have the infrared component in it that a tungsten fixture does. As you'll find out, tungsten is quite an efficient heater and in fact tungsten elements are used in heaters.

http://www.coollights.biz/clmf0150-cool-lights-fresnel-p-63.html

Oh boy, here we ago again with the "misleading" accusation. Shaun, I never mislead anyone, why would I? You saw it Richard, that's exactly why I wrote "for the most part".

I don't think Lowel exactly hit a home run with the Fren-L, just like you Richard, I have yet to see anyone actually shoot with one although I have seen them in magazines and at NAB at the Lowel booth. The consensus is that they perform okay but are way overpriced for what you get. They are expensive, not built as well as some other industry standard lights so why bother?

Shaun, no offense, but if you want to split hairs, there is no such thing as an Arri Redhead, Redheads were and are made only by Ianiro, not Arri, although an Arrilite 600 or 1k open face is for all intents and purposes very similar to an Ianiro 800 or 1k Redhead http://www.ianirouk.com/redhead_fibre.html but it's not the same thing. Your post is a bit misleading ;-)

So far all practical purposes, almost all Lowel kits are NOT going to include Fren-Ls and when you speak Lowels to those in the industry, they will instantly think about Omnis and Totas. They have their uses but are pretty difficult for inexperienced users to control.

Richard, when can we buy the CDM-150s? They have been "available soon" for ages. I would like to try one, they sound like a pretty neat little light.

Thanks,

Dan

Richard and Dan of course are absolutely correct and I apologize if my comment offended you, Dan.

Dan is also correct in stating that Redheads are made by Ianiro (I own four of them). However, colloquially, open face lighting instruments of that style are often referred to as "redheads", just as XLR audio connectors are sometimes referred to as "Cannon" connectors, even if made by Switchcraft or Neutrik.

Hey folks, omnis and totas are the lowels of yesterday.

Please note that the lowel discussion has focused (sorry) on the Pro and Rifa fixtures. Granted, most people think about those beat-up omni/tota kits they used in school, but if you haven't used a Pro or a Rifa you're missing out on a couple of great fixtures.

The pro is half-way between a mini-cool and a fresnel. The Rifa is the best compact softbox going, for my values.

An open-face fixture has its uses, cheap, somewhat controllable, usually with diffusion or a reflector. Why dedicate a fresnel to this use, when an open-face instrument will do it for less? I'd configure a kit with 1 or 2 arrilite, and 2 or 3 Arri 650 fresnels... but I fly so often I wouldn't have it on half the shoots. Lowel seems to work out much better for lightweight equipment.

Richard and Dan of course are absolutely correct and I apologize if my comment offended you, Dan.

Dan is also correct in stating that Redheads are made by Ianiro (I own four of them). However, colloquially, open face lighting instruments of that style are often referred to as "redheads", just as XLR audio connectors are sometimes referred to as "Cannon" connectors, even if made by Switchcraft or Neutrik.

No worries ;-)

Yes, I know that Redhead has become a term like "Coke" or "Kleenex", a brand item that has become so ubiquitous that it becomes a general term.

Dan

Richard, when can we buy the CDM-150s? They have been "available soon" for ages. I would like to try one, they sound like a pretty neat little light.


Hehe. That's my fault generally. Everything revolves around a production cycle and shipment at the end of it to get the products back to the states. I keep adding things to a shipment to load it up to the maximum so the container goes at as full as possible, and sometimes those extra things are a bit delayed beyond what I thought they would be. The 150's are on the way now though and should be in by end of June unless there's an unscheduled stop for maintenance or whatever on the boat they are on.