Tomorrow shooting a drama using 2 EX1s - my first EX1 shoot, having had hardly any time for EX1 testing. Client is the NHS and they'll be watching the result on DVD on CRT ands LCD TVs.

The 1080 and 25p and 50i tests I just did, editing in FCP, look fine until camera is panning. Then see a nasty juddering effect on LCD and CRT - both the progressive and interlaced footage. In the FCP sequence setting variations I tried so far I can't get a different end result.... what workflow is working for people to get good SD DVD?

It almost sounds like your shutter speed is set too low. Make sure the shutter switch on the front of the camera body under the lens is set to "on" and that your shutter speed is set to at least 1/50th sec. for both 25p and 50i PAL settings.

- Don

Cheers - but yes, shutter was on, at 1/50th

how much memory do you have in the computer?
I have the same problem with G5 2.5 Ghz but only 1g of mem.
I think it could be the memory.

There has been much discussion out here about this. I've had similar problems getting good looking SD DVDs from XDCAM footage. I'll tell you what I'm currently doing, but I must give credit to Daniel Weber for the workflow. It seems to work okay for me though I'm always looking for refinements.

First, edit the footage in a sequence set for XDCAM HD 1080i or 1080p, whatever you're footage is.

2. Export, using Quicktime compression to DVCPRO HD 720p (50 for you, 60 for us NTSC blokes). This will result in a very large file, depending on the length of your footage.

3. Drop the resulting DVCPRO file into Compressor and use the highest quality DVD setting, depending on the total length of your footage. I use the MPEG 2, 2 pass, 6.6 mbs. Daniel told me there is a bug in Compressor that doesn't render well if the motion setting is set to highest, so he sets it to medium quality. You might experiment with that.

I'll be using these settings for a DVD project I'm sending to the replicator on Monday so there's a vote of confidence. It sure beats the heck out of what I was doing before which was getting horrible results for me.

Good luck.

2. Export, using Quicktime compression to DVCPRO HD 720p
Why? Why not straightforward from FCP directly to Compressor (or at least use ProRes, if there's a lot of rendering-stuff and you want to output to multiple formats)? (don't forget to select the very nice "optimal"-scaling (btw, what actually is it? Bicubic? Sinc? ...?) in Compressor, because bilinear sucks.)
If you want highest-quality-DVDs (and your movie isn't too long) use CBR@9.0MBit/s. Use the space there is on a DVD!

If you want highest-quality-DVDs (and your movie isn't too long) use CBR@9.0MBit/s. Use the space there is on a DVD!

A good point in theory, the 9.0MBit/s and I have tried it several times with clients. However, there are lots of consumer DVD players that cannot/will not handle this bit rate, they choke. If you know the end user's equipment, say your own, or if it's a limited production to known equipment, then by all means use the highest bit rate. Awareness and caution is all I am saying.

Max bit rates above 7-7.5Mbps will fail in many DVD players.

Why? Why not straightforward from FCP directly to Compressor

This is a good question. I am in the thick of editing several hours of music performance for DVD and broadcast. It was switched live and recorded by a Sony XDCAM deck at 1080i60. I have had a very rough time getting this footage to look good once it's output to SD DVD. If I exported from Final Cut directly to MPEG2 using Compressor there were unacceptable interlacing artifacts when viewed on everything from my in-dash, 7 inch DVD player, to my computer screen, to my 50 inch plasma. It was universally bad and not acceptable. I created test after test, changing single settings and trying various combinations, some of them recommended out here. It was only after Daniel Weber recommended that I first export to DVCPRO HD 720p, then use Compressor to create the MPEG2 that I got an acceptable result. So, I thought I should share this wisdom for this particular post.

Regarding the bit rate for DVDs, I've made the mistake of thinking that more must be better, raising the bit rate up into the 7 and 8 range. I'll never do that again. Even recent, good quality DVD players will choke and stutter. Keep in mind that you must leave some room for the audio stream. Many of my productions include higher definition, PCM audio, which takes up more of the available pipeline so I have to compensate with the video.

Oh, why hasn't Apple come out with support for BluRay?!?! I know this is off the topic, but is anyone speculating about a possible announcement this Monday? All I hear is "iPhone that and iPhone this." It's a phone people! Admittedly, it's a great phone, but it's still just a phone. Here at the grass level, we need support for the creation and distribution of high definition content, as all of these "how do I make this incredible footage look good at lower definitions" postings demonstrate.

Having just spent the last four hours reading about how to get decent quality SD DVDs out of our EX footage I just couldn't help thinking that it is a little rediculous that we have to do all these steps to make it happen.

I know, we get what we pay for and there is an amazing amount of stuff in the FCS box but still.

Is this really the way to not have horrible looking DVDs. I just cringe sometimes at what we deliver considering that I know how good the image looks on my cinema display. Keep in mind I have made many test disks in many different bit rate settings to see if I can get the best out of a direct FCP to DVD setting in compressor.

I read:

2. Export, using Quicktime compression to DVCPRO HD 720p (50 for you, 60 for us NTSC blokes). This will result in a very large file, depending on the length of your footage.

Export using QT conversion? save to the project file to .....?


3. Drop the resulting DVCPRO file into Compressor and use the highest quality DVD setting, depending on the total length of your footage. I use the MPEG 2, 2 pass, 6.6 mbs. Daniel told me there is a bug in Compressor that doesn't render well if the motion setting is set to highest, so he sets it to medium quality. You might experiment with that.




I mainly put out 20 min long DVDs. I have tried VBR 2 pass with 8.2 as highest with good results to my clients.

I am trying your method as I type. Thanks for the advice.

Oh, why hasn't Apple come out with support for BluRay?!?! I know this is off the topic, but is anyone speculating about a possible announcement this Monday? All I hear is "iPhone that and iPhone this." It's a phone people! Admittedly, it's a great phone, but it's still just a phone. Here at the grass level, we need support for the creation and distribution of high definition content, as all of these "how do I make this incredible footage look good at lower definitions" postings demonstrate.

DUUUUUUDE!!! I can't express the frustration enough! I mean what the %#$@?

Please start another thread to just let them have it! Rediculous! If we can have a $99 box from Roxio with this capability then why can't apple sell us a turnkey solution?

Having just spent the last four hours reading about how to get decent quality SD DVDs out of our EX footage I just couldn't help thinking that it is a little rediculous that we have to do all these steps to make it happen.

Mike your frustration is understandable with having to go through the suggested workflow. The key is too choose sequence settings that match your final output. HD workflows are opposite to the traditional SD workflows. This is common knowledge.

That being said, I offer a suggestion that I stumbled across by purchasing the Vortex "EX1 Workflow Test Drive DVD". It comes with a 10 page tutorial with several workflow suggestions including one for taking your EX1 footage, using FCP and compressor to author high quality SD DVD's. The tutorial has copy rights so I cannot provide the details. Vortex charges $35 for this SD training DVD and it was made using the EX1. The SD quality is excellent and hence proof that what you are trying to accomplish can be done. For my part it was money well spent, your mileage may vary.

Vortex also offers an even simpler workflow for getting EX1 footage into an SD timeline but it is provided on the more expensive "Mastering the EX1 DVD." I have this too and it provides solutions to many of the EX1 questions that continue to surface in these forums. It is of course not the definitive EX1 training source, but it does give the goods so that you can shoot with confidence. Again your mileage may vary.

I too am concerned with this HD- SD DVD horrible conversion. I have noticed that the new XDCAM EX deck due to be released soon by Sony has a downconversion facility built in. I'm just hoping that hardware down conversion yields much better results.

It does entail however that if you want the project to be delivered both in both HD and SD, one has to transfer the edited HD footage from the timeline back to the deck (recorded as HD on the SxS cards) then from the deck back to the NLE whilst being downconverted in realtime (and hopefully good quality) to SD. Then from the SD timeline a SD DVD can be produced whilst from the HD timeline a HD DVD is produced. I know that it sounds very time consuming....

Do any of you think that this workflow might work well?

I dropped this into the forum awhile back.
Maybe this will help with your problem.....


I wrote to Doug Jenson at Vortex Media,
author of the "Mastering The Sony PMW-EX1" DVD set about HD to SD conversion.
Here was his response...

Hi Kevin,

I'm glad that you liked the DVD.
Just about everything I produce gets output to DVD. I don't output to tape at all, and haven't for about three years, so I don't know if I can give you all the answers. However, here's my workflow for DVD. Maybe you can adapt it for DVCAM where necessary:


I believe it is very important to edit with Sequence settings that are as close as you can come to matching your final output. In other words, if you aren't going to author a Blu-ray disk or some other HD final product -- then don't edit in HD!! Edit in SD. Choose sequence settings that match your final output -- not the source footage. That's how I edited "Mastering the EX1" and it looks fine, right?

Here's how I edited "Mastering the EX1" and all of my other DVDs with FCP 6.

1) I shoot most of my footage 1080 30P HQ --- but I don't think that makes much difference in the final output.

2) I open a new Sequence in FCP and use the "DV NTSC 48Khz Anamorphic" preset . . . or non-anamorphic if the output will be a 4x3 DVD . . . yes, I still do those too.

3) I change the Field Dominance to "NONE"

4) I edit the entire program within that Sequence.

5) When I'm done editing, I then Export a QuickTime movie of the Sequence. I choose "Current Settings" and I do NOT choose to "Make Movie Self-Contained".

6) I then take that QuickTime movie and bring it into Compressor.

7) I then choose the Compressor preset for DVD Best Quality and modify a few of the settings (such as bitrate), but nothing major.

8) After that file is finished rendering, I bring it into DVD Studio Pro and author the DVD normally.

This is exactly how my EX1 DVD was produced, and it's the workflow I've been using with XDCAM HD for almost two years. VERY SIMPLE. No extra software, no extra rendering, nothing special at all. I do everyting EXACTLY how I demonstrate in the EX1 DVD and it looked good, right?

I hope that helps.

Doug
www.VortexMedia.com

Check this out for the EX1 :

http://www.kenstone.net/fcp_homepage/ex1_sd_output_young.html

Step by step with pictures illustrations....

Did I read this right? Doug says to edit in DV-NTSC while Ken's site says to edit in HD and then convert to SD? I guess it's like Photoshop....there are 4 or 5 ways to do ANY operation. Thanks to everyone for sharing their favorite method of creating SD DVD's. I'm afraid that we're stuck between two worlds for the foreseeable future. Sometimes it sucks to be on the "bleeding edge".

Dave
It'll be awhile. Remember, by far and away most TV sets in the US are still 4:3 tube units that were, well, built in another age, when people wanted value for their money and manufacturers built things to last.

I have and use several pieces of hardware/software combinations for HD/SD downresing for DVD production. I agree with the others here in that I haven't found a single, set-it-and-forget-it method that works every time, but I have found a few that work most of the time...

a) MPEG Streamclip downconvert the Quicktime SD footage after ingest into FCP, then cut in SD
b) ditto after HD editing and making an SD QT reference HD movie for Compressor into DVD
c) ditto the above but using an Aja Kona solution for the downres instead of Streamclip

That's my mostly-used workflows for EX1 originated footage. My mezzanine formats have been H264, Apple Intermediate Codec, and ProRes 422. All have worked well, and there's small differences between all of them.

Typically I take the EX1 footage and find the shots with the most motion in them, then make small (around 10 sec) clips and convert to the three mezzanine formats, or just leave it alone in EX format. Then I watch them all to see which I prefer.

Then I take this preferred clip all the way (including VFX, plugins, Color, whatever will be involved) through to SD DVD via the methods I mentioned above, and watch them all on a regular TV screen, BTW., as well as my production monitors and computer screens. Usually I'll prefer one to another at the end of it all.

The fastest method I have is to output/downconvert live via Aja Kona and spit it into another computer via Canopus ADVC at SD then into a regular DVD workflow after that - no rendering anywhere. I've also connected directly into a standalone DVD recorder when I've had to make long (over 1 hour) stringouts for producers in no-render-time-available time. This last not for final quality, though, just for roughs out and mainly for meeting delivery deadlines and Fedex/UPS last pickups...

Thanks Chris for your detailed reply. I'm sure we'll all be struggling with this workflow. One thing I needed some clarification on was how you handled the 16:9 to 4:3 change. I have some clients who are almost apoplectic if they get anything letterboxed. If you KNOW you're going to have to deliver a 4:3 final product, do you shoot with a protected 4:3 frame and simply do a "center cut"?

Hi Dave

Well, this depends on the client.

Most times I make a letterboxed version, a widescreen TV version and a center cut 4:3 version, and make them a little menu using one of the DVD Studio pro presets, just like in the movies :-)

For what I do, the shorter programs are nearly always sizzle reels, promos and the like, so the clients love the menus, etc., and it doesn't take that much longer in Quicktime Pro or Streamclip to convert the clips to the various formats.

Also that way it takes care of all the would-be complaints at source, and makes this a non-issue.

For longer form programs and the like I will usually ask the client how they like their outputs. Don't forget that a lot of them still run the older 4:3 TVs...

HTH
Cheers!
Chris

What I don't understand about either method is why create a DV timeline? It's not a very nice codec. Surely you may as well create, for e.g. a 10 bit uncompressed timeline, or if you have lots of graphics an animation codec timeline? Am I missing something?

Hey Phil
Not much, if your program has a relatively short run time or your deadlines are looser. Otherwise rendering time starts to play a major part in workflow decisions.