The Firestore, Flash XDR, etc. are great if you can afford them, but I'm wondering why someone hasn't come out with a simple firewire-connected flash card (CF or SDHC) unit that attaches to the camcorder and starts/stops when the record-button is pressed? Sort of a "poor man's" MRC1. It wouldn't have to provide metadata or a multitude of codecs or connectors, as long as it's able to parallel-record the signal going to tape. It seems like the technology is readily available, and would be much cheaper to produce than the pro-level units...

Let me turn that around... Why aren't you making one?

But seriously, they may happen yet. However, if you need a inexpensive device that records full HD to CF today, you can buy one here (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/539291-REG/Canon_2708B001_VIXIA_HF_100_AVCHD_Flash.html).

George/

"Let me turn that around... Why aren't you making one?"

Because I wouldn't have a clue where to begin. I'm not an engineer (but if I were, I'd probably be trying to make one).

The HF100 is a good cam, but I already have 2 PD170s and at this time I'm only delivering SD video to my clients. I recently did a 3-day seminar with 2 cameras at 5-6 hours straight taping per day, and all those tape changes along with the subsequent sync'ing in post got me thinking... I have 9-hour batteries but only 60 minutes per tape; that got me thinking about the benefits of Firestore et. al. but they are very expensive for a small production house. I can record live to a laptop, but that isn't very portable. I started wondering why there wasn't a simpler, more straightforward device to record a multi-hour stream of video. Something about the size of a pack of cigarettes with 2-4 card slots for hot-swapping, that could be fixed to the camera for ultimate portability. The common availability and cheap price of flash cards and card readers seems like a no-brainer for this purpose, but I thought maybe there was a technical reason why no one has done this yet?

...if you need a inexpensive device that records full HD to CF today, you can buy one here (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/539291-REG/Canon_2708B001_VIXIA_HF_100_AVCHD_Flash.html).Actually that's recording to SDHC, not CF -- just to clarify.

I don't think there's a technical reason, like it's imposible. Just that "upgrades" to exisiting systems for new functionality have "some issues". Look over at the Flash XDR and Cineform "Solid" threads. It takes quite some development to actually deliver the technology and you have to take compatibility and seemingly never ending wishlists into account.

Also there is always the risk that you will be "overtaken" by market developments, like when a major player decides to have a go at "your" niche market. And camera technology is always moving forward and will eventually, inevitably, obsolete your product.

Currently and FS-4 HD goes for less than $700 for 60Gb and will record 4.5-6 hours. Just calculate how much time you spend in capturing the tapes for your projects and at what costs and multiply by the number of events you project to do in a year. I doubt you will not be able to justify the expense.

George/

P.S. CH, I'll promise to do better fact checking! ;-)

i think simply the price is the main factor.
even if the device cost only 300$, the number and price of 16 or 32 gig card you would need would push the enveloppe far higher than the current model you can find today.
remember a 1 hour DV tape is about 12gig size.
i find more problematic the harddisk based device coming with 40 or 80gig disks when you know that for aout same price (often les than 20$ more , you can get a 120 or 160gig disk).

Well, there are people that "upgrade" their FireStors with bigger HD's, but I wouldn't advice it when the unit is still under warranty.

The FS DTE's are not just "harddisks", but video recorders and to some extend their pricing will reflect the value they realize for you by means of productivity gains. The cost of individual components is relatively irrelevant.

You can ask yourself why a company does something some way and not another or why they seem to lag behind in some technological way. However, for mass produced products companies often need to make decisions well in advance of production and for reasons of support and price (volume) need to stick with those often somewhat longer than the rush of technology would seem to command.

But in the end this is all unimportant. Simply ask if the solution solve a problem for you, improves your business. And then ask if you can justify the cost.

It is always important to improve your business and make it as efficient as you can, and time is a real constraint.

George/

Are comparing an HD camera on the high end or mid-high end with something like convergent designs nanno/Flash XDR and a EX1 or EX3 and when you do the math ... this is a very inexpensive way to get high end footage!
It's a quality thing; HD/SDI out with 4.2.2 is professional broadcast standard and everything down scaled from there is doable on many levels of output. This approach with quality Mpeg 2 at 4.2.2 will be around for quite some time ... I hope!

The Firestore, Flash XDR, etc. are great if you can afford them, but I'm wondering why someone hasn't come out with a simple firewire-connected flash card (CF or SDHC) unit that attaches to the camcorder and starts/stops when the record-button is pressed? Sort of a "poor man's" MRC1..

I'd love to see less-expensive media, too, but...

I suspect it's a little more complicated than most of us think, e.g. all existing external add-on units that I'm familiar with (FS, Citidisk, nNovia, and their ilk) are expensive because I believe they contain chips which, in turn, store software/firmware that "converts"/"interprets" the signal sent via firewire from the cam to the external unit (whatever brand it might be). I'm not an engineer, but I think that conversion/interpretation cannot be easily handled simply by attaching some "dumb" storage medium to the end of a firewire cable. (Because, without internal changes to the camera, e.g. menu changes and related software changes (at least), the camera isn't aware of the type of medium storing the data; that's traditionally left up to the device that "houses" the storage medium).

In light of those extra chips and software/firmware, and the costs of their development, testing, etc., I don't know that we're likely to see anything soon (if ever) that a single-owner or small business might consider "inexpensive".

I think many of us tend to forget that modern digital cameras should perhaps be thought of more as special-purpose computers than "merely" some optics and electronics. We're a long way from film, mechanics, and gears nowadays.

(my $.02 deposited).

And on top of all the costs involved in designing and building one of these gadgets, don't forget the seemingly endless list of certification and compliance testing one has to go through today. It's quite a project to get UL/CSC marks for your product and without them you'll never get away with selling them to consumers. And then there are all the other safety standards you have to meet to sell worldwide - every country seems to have their own certification and labeling requirements. And there are also all the other details like being sure you don't use anything that the EC might consider a hazardous substance, or making sure your plastic parts don't contain banned flame retardants or your screws aren't plated with the wrong kind of chrome, and continually monitoring to make sure that the lower cost bad stuff doesn't sneak back in at your "trusted" offshore supplier.

And then designing appropriate packaging and testing it for shock and vibration tolerance to make sure that there's a fighting chance that the product will work after the delivery guy kicks it off the back of the truck in the more or less general direction of your door in the rain or snow.

And making sure that nobody uses untreated wood pallets to ship the stuff to you which will make US customs refuse to let your shipments of components enter the US.

I think we spend almost as much engineering manpower on stuff like this as we do on product design

It is then a poor strategy to make an entry level with 40 gig disk and then propose the "pro" level with a disk twice bigger for almost double of price.
this lets the consumer believe the price difference is in the disk size.
And it sould be compared to similar device . Today for 999$ i can get a laptop with 4 gig of ram, core 2 duo, keyboard, touchpad , 320 gig disk, DVD burner, 15" LCD screen and vista license.
difficult to explain to consumer that a little box with 2 or 3 chip, small B&W lcd, 4 buttons and 40gig disk will cost you same price.

Notebooks are sold in the many, many millions (31 milion in Q1 '08 alone). The specialized products discussed here sell in thousands, niche products may even be measured in hundreds. That is a massive difference in scale with a considerable effect on all costs.

Also you're $1000 notebook doesn't really represent the value to your business. You may very well not be able to run a business without a computer, so the true value could even be a lot higher. You see this in business software that can realize a certain value and is basically priced accordingly. The software on your notebook is most likely 2-5x the cost of the hardware, and it may be much easier to create and certainly is easier to manufacture and distribute.

In the (semi)professional video business there is also a strong relation to the value a solution adds. At the low end price and competition is also an important factor.

For example; if you look at the Sony PHU-60K as a 'harddisk' (which it essentially is), then it is expensive at ~$1000. If you look at it as an alternative for 4x 16GB SxS (~ $3400) it is inexpensive.

George/

i perfectly understand this. but as member of the global village, parts for part, the reasoning
is not valid. If you see the device as the value of the parts + benefits for the company, it is hard to understand they cannot put a 160gig HDD into the device for a reasonable price, when anybody else can (thinking to all these users upgrading their firestor with 120 or 160 gig disk for less than 100$).
When your boss send your job to china or india, it justify by saying "it is cheaper there".

when you buy the china toys for your children shop X instead shop Y just because it is 5$ cheaper , you do the same.
Personnaly i cannot afford the extravagant price of SxS,and find the price of hardisk still to high. Why ?
Because following your reasoning, if a 1500$ harddisk is much cheaper than a 3400$ set of SxS card, it is still a LOT more expensive that a ton of DVtape

There must not be a very large market for external tapeless recording devices. If there was, it would be cheap as the dickens (well under $100) to mass produce a (small and energy efficient) device, that uses removable flash memory, with functionality akin to that of a Firestore. (So long as it's simply a recording device, not an encoder) the engineering is simple enough for a college student to do as a class project.

Because following your reasoning, if a 1500$ harddisk is much cheaper than a 3400$ set of SxS card, it is still a LOT more expensive that a ton of DVtape

Sure, if tapeless workflow and improved quality/features have little or no value to your business (your customers really) then there is no reason to buy into that.

It's not like there is just one "right" solution; you choose what works best for you.

Why would even you want a solid state or disk recorder? Not that it is not okay to just wonder about and discuss things like this here...

George/

...Why would even you want a solid state or disk recorder?...

George/

I have an HVX and an nNovia disk recorder (similar, though bigger and more limited than the Firestor), and I absolutely love it. It makes some jobs SOOOO much easier and faster. For example, I have a performance shoot coming up in a couple of weeks. It will be 2 performances on the same day, each about 90 mins and is to be shot in DV (unless nNovia's new DV-thru-DVCPROHD model is delivered by then). That would mean an absolute minimum of 3 tapes, and probably 4. With the nNovia, capture time is eliminated...that's 4 hours of my time saved, which also translates into either getting the final product to the client approximately 1 day sooner, or extra time editing.

It's also come in handy for numerous other shoots, where fast-paced action occurs every few seconds, but too frequently to deal with changing tapes, (think boxing match, karate tournament, or rodeo, where new action starts after only about 1 minute (or less); instead, I press a button to change to the next bin.

For my purposes, that thing is better than sliced bread, (but, then, I've always been pretty handy with a good, sharp knife).

There must not be a very large market for external tapeless recording devices. If there was, it would be cheap as the dickens (well under $100) to mass produce a (small and energy efficient) device, that uses removable flash memory, with functionality akin to that of a Firestore. (So long as it's simply a recording device, not an encoder) the engineering is simple enough for a college student to do as a class project.

Well, I'm not so sure it's a class project for a 1st year engineering student.

Would you like it to start/stop recording when you push the button on the camera (well, actually a lot of different cameras that all have some unique characteristics), have a pre-roll buffer, recover from errors without losing your data, etc etc etc.

Sort of a rule of thumb in computer development is that writing the code to perform the function is maybe 10% to 20% of the job, making it work when something goes wrong is maybe 80% to 90%. Do you really think that every write to a CF card is executed without some (usually recoverable) error? Or that there aren't errors on the firewire that have to be recovered from? Noise that has to be dealt with and may differ from camera to camera? etc etc etc.

And it is a rather small market.

For my purposes, that thing is better than sliced bread, (but, then, I've always been pretty handy with a good, sharp knife).

Hi Denis,

Actually I'm with you on that one.

I was just asking Giroud Francois why he would want one and possibly find out why it is of so little value to him.

George/

Well, I'm not so sure it's a class project for a 1st year engineering student.

Would you like it to start/stop recording when you push the button on the camera (well, actually a lot of different cameras that all have some unique characteristics), have a pre-roll buffer, recover from errors without losing your data, etc etc etc.

Sort of a rule of thumb in computer development is that writing the code to perform the function is maybe 10% to 20% of the job, making it work when something goes wrong is maybe 80% to 90%. Do you really think that every write to a CF card is executed without some (usually recoverable) error? Or that there aren't errors on the firewire that have to be recovered from? Noise that has to be dealt with and may differ from camera to camera? etc etc etc.

It would however be trivial for Focus Enhancements to replace the hard drive in a Firestore with a CF card slot since a CF controller behaves like any mounted filesystem.

It's a shame the FS-5 didn't have this as an option. I'm pretty sure that even the cheapest CF these days can handle a sustained 25Mbps write. Cheap removable solid state media would have been way cool.

it is even more a shame that they are not even able to pop in a bigger hard disk (common size today is 160 gig or even 320gig for a 2.5").
these guys are just lazy....
They probably wait for some Jim Jannard to explain them how to skip several generation of developpement and cut price in half
today i can buy a firestore and upgrade it with a big hardisk for almost nothing or even better, put a SSD disk to get a full solid state recorder (and this will not cost too much regarding the price of the device). This is a pity that it is not already proposed.
My opinion is when user can make the device better by just swapping part, there is something wrong at the marketing dept.

and to answer... yes i use disk based capture device since the begining, I got a SONY DSR-DU1 since many years.

Good point - it would be relatively easy for Focus to do it - but lately I'm not sure what their strategy really is.

A thought occured yesterday, why hasn't anyone tried a Pocket PC, with firewire PCMCIA adapter, connected to the camera and an external harddrive.

All we need is an Operating System, and some RAM, on this.
Probably not a fast CPU on these units,
It would be nice if, someone with one of these units could try it out, and let the rest of us know the results, please.

Just a thought.

Hi Denis,

Actually I'm with you on that one.

I was just asking Giroud Francois why he would want one and possibly find out why it is of so little value to him.

George/

sorry, George.

I took your question to mean that you saw no reason/value in using one for your purposes, i.e. "Why would you possibly even WANT one?" . (The written word is sometimes a poor vehicle for communication; easy example = all the time and energy put into interpreting the meaning of the Second Amendment).

Hi all,

Well i read through this thread and i myself asked almost all of the questions that were mentioned here about a year ago.
i bought an FS-4 to "feel" how it is like and to be honest the device is very focused (and i dont men the company's name) - it does EXACTLY one thing - record to the HD inside period.
well its purpose is covered ok but it doesnt worth (for my opinion) its price and even the FS-5 now out.
I believe that if i'd to pay 700-1200$ device it should be capable of doing a "little" more...
so i started developing a solution for that (i am an electronics engineer) - taking into consideration the following :
1. portable (small enough...)
2. more user friendly ( i have the FS-4 and its interface is too dedicated for my opinion)
3. more features.
4. user hardware upgradable - if you want to put bigger hard drive - suit yourself.
5. user software upgradeable - open source OS or windows capable device.
and more.

so i built a basic prototype several months ago (i left the portability aside just to show the proof of concept) which worked very good. this took me to the next stage - miniaturizing.
the goal is tho have a device the size of the FS-4 (actually a little bit smaller) which has a 3.5" color TFT screen with touch panel that will run XP/Linux and will have a Firewire ports to allow DV/HDV recording to internal hard drive - all this having in mind portability.
right now i am waiting for the hardware i designed to arrive (it was already manufactured and is now in the QA stage) from the manufacturer. soon as it comes (hopefully next month) i will start building the first generation prototype.
a an also working on pricing (i want to get it low as possible) - go under the 700$....time will tell.

an archos device is able to capture video and replay on its internal lcd screen, all of this for less than 400$. ok, quality is poor (mpeg4) , but it is due to marketing decision more than technical limitation.
http://www.archos.com/products/gen_5/archos_605wifi/features.html?country=global&lang=en
I am pretty sure that a portable playstation (PSP) can be hacked to offer most of what is needed for this kind of feature. and a psp does not cost 1000$.
anyway, a 64gig SSD cost less than 250$, there is no reason not to see one in a firestore.
it is not even a change in hardware, they just need to switch their reference part number.
they probably wait for ver 7 of firestore to announce it. what a pity.

Well first, this thread is aiming for the pro market which uses the DV or now HDV standards so with all due respect to Archos, their main goal is the electronic consumer area so mpeg4 is good for that matter.
second, regarding the SSD, it seems it yet have some birth problems as although it looks like "no moving parts - hey - less power..." - well no. currently SSD's still have power consumption issues and access time problems so it will take a little longer until good SSD based devices will show up.

I think the real reason -- which is true for almost every piece of "pro" gear -- is that the companies that manufacture and market these target broadcast production companies and Hollywood film studios where the people purchasing the gear are using "other people's money" and so consequently, price is no object.

It's like the U.S. Defense Department. The big studios are so used to paying exorbitant, inflated prices that if a low-cost option even comes available, they'll turn up their noses at it and won't buy it. Obviously, as long as there is a market willing to overpay for specialized gear, why should manufacturers drop the price?

Not to say there aren't things where you get what you pay for (like tripods!). But when it comes to capturing video to a hard drive, I'd say on the basis of cost, speed, capacity reliability and quality, the lowliest Linux laptop beats any of the specialized Firestores, nnovias, etc. hands down.

All we need is a unit small enough to hang on the back of a camera and with a battery that will run for more than two hours.

Brian, i agree with you - i also see this thing you say about people paying too much for things they think "it cos that much than it must be good..." .
i think Linux shows the world (at least i saw that..) that if we share our knowledge and work together we may accomplish something far more effective for much less money. but dont forget that at the end of the day (maybe month) you have to bring some pay check home so that you can have one (a place you call home) and that you can eat and drink.
i myself have invested over $30,000 for the creature like you described (put it in the back of the camera and be able to record around two hours) without the need of a mortgage for such a device in one hand, but on the other i do expect to get my investment back plus some change. there is nothing wrong about that.
dont forget - there will always be those who will buy things (no matter which or what) that will buy only for the reasons of 1. high price=the best available and 2. brand name. both of which aren't always true .

Last March Sony reps at a Sony display told me that the MRU (memory recording unit) that records to standard CF cards on the new Sony Z7U camera was going to be sold seperately for use with other Sony cameras like the two V1U's I own.

However I have not been able to find any info about when or the price point on the internet. It might be soon though since they have been offering a $500 rebate on the Sony hard drive memory recording unit.