Hi

i guess we all know how to get the footage out of the camera as an MP4 file & then to mxf files.

Currently im using Vegas pro8 to edit the mxf files. What would be the best 10bit YUV 422 codec for the mxf for future CC & effects.

If one was to use a codec like CineForm NEO hd to convert the mxf files to 10bit YUV 422 mov's will Vegas support them without truncating it to an 8bit video?

Whats the max YUV or RGB color space supported by Vegas8? How would one compare Vegas8, CS3 & FCP interm of this 10bit 422 YUV video support?

Thanks in advance

You aren't gaining anything by doing that. The video downloaded from the cards is 4:2:0 already. If you want 4:2:2 from the EX1 you have to capture it live from the SDI port.

Vegas is using 4:4:4 on it's timeline. Set your project to 32 bit floating, and have at it. Saving as 10-bit YUV should preserve everything you're doing.

I saved my files as Sony 10bit I believe when I was doing a lot of CC and other work.

-P

Hi

i guess we all know how to get the footage out of the camera as an MP4 file & then to mxf files.

Currently im using Vegas pro8 to edit the mxf files. What would be the best 10bit YUV 422 codec for the mxf for future CC & effects.

If one was to use a codec like CineForm NEO hd to convert the mxf files to 10bit YUV 422 mov's will Vegas support them without truncating it to an 8bit video?

Whats the max YUV or RGB color space supported by Vegas8? How would one compare Vegas8, CS3 & FCP interm of this 10bit 422 YUV video support?

Thanks in advance

Believe me, 32-bit float in Vegas 8b is a REAL can of worms. Your render times go thru the roof and there's NO GUARANTEE what you get back, colorwise.

Once you've recorded to SxS or captured thru the EX1's firewire port, you're in 4:2:0 8-bit color land. This is fine for Vegas, because Vegas' I/O is only 8-bit anyway. Trying to import 10 bit into vegas is an exercise in futility. Once in vegas, however, it's true that the rendering engine is 10-bit. This won't make more out of something you already have(i.e. 8 bit) until you start color timing and using FX. CCing in 10-bit will help image quality. When you export back out of Vegas, using a 10-bit codec, like the SONY YUV codec, is rather useless unless you're going to another format and this is a decent intermediate. Personally, Cineform is a much nicer, friendlier intermediate codec than Sony YUV. Just remember, importing 10-bit into vegas will become 8-bit. Vegas no lo comprende 10 bit input!!

But, for the majority of distribution workflows, exporting to an 8-bit codec is the best way to go. You gained in the only place that matters...that's using a 10-bit codec to color time.

Color timing is a rather silly exercise if your ultimate goal is to get back to film...as in real celluloid. The conversion from DI to film will, of necessity, require a professional CC guy at the tape house who knows how to go from DI back to celluloid.

There's a misconception that vegas' 32-bit float is like 10-bit data. It is NOT NOT NOT.32-bit float is/was a marketting ploy from Sony to take advantage of decimal point round off error with 8-bit...which is a very very small correction for color banding....even if it worked.

Hope this helps out and isn't too confusing. Not trying to start a verbal war, just wanting the technology to be clear to anyone unfamiliar with the jargon.

Vegas is using 4:4:4 on it's timeline. Set your project to 32 bit floating, and have at it. Saving as 10-bit YUV should preserve everything you're doing.

I saved my files as Sony 10bit I believe when I was doing a lot of CC and other work.

I remeber experts posting on some other threads mentioned that Vegas8 is an 8bit software and thus cannot understand 10bit YUV 422 video, opposed to Premier CS3 which can support 10bit YUV internally so that one can do CC & Effects at 10bit levels-end

so i make a master at 10bit YUV PRIOR to or AFTER CC & effects to get the best results on dvd?

which workflow suits best?
EX1 > mxf > effects & CC > 10bit YUV output from Vegas8 > DVD
EX1 > mxf > 10bit YUV cineform with HD link > PP CS3 > effects n cc > 10bit YUV> DVD
EX1 > mxf > Vegas8 timeline > CC & effects > DVD

Thanks everyone

Thanks Bill, lot of help there

excuse me for the tangled up post! actually here we dont print back to film, we just capture, edit, CC, & render to an uncompressed mov file n off it becomes a dvd.

The workflow which im trying to focus here is the all digital tapeless workflow. I wanted to know if converting the mxf files to a 10bit YUV file prior to editing or cc would help retain the gradients etc when we need to do extensive CC & effects on it. Im just scared that the 420 ex1 files might "dissolve" with the hard cc etc through vegas. The current mxf files edited, primary cc, secondary cc, effects & output to dvd looks decent, but not as good as i want.

so ur suggesting PP CS3 is better for future proof 444 or 422 yuv/RGB video etc?

I have no experience with PPCS3.
What I can say, however, is that if you start with 4:2:0, you can NEVER make it better than that. In other words, color corrections must be done VERY carefully and with finesse.Long form GOP is very sensitive to cc. Any attempt to correct exposure, for example, will result in increasing noise and grain. You can't create something when nothing's there to start with. Doesn't matter what NLE you try to do it with.

If you're set on maximizing quality from your EX1, your only real option is to record directly from the HD-SDI port at 4:2:2 10-bit. Then import into a 10-bit capable NLE(which is not Vegas). The two options I'm aware of to do this are:
1-Blackmagic Design I/O cards or AJA I/O cards, directly into your computer
2-Convergent design's Flash or nano XDR tapeless recorder.

If you insist on processing 8-bit data as 10-bit, here's the workflow:
EX1 4:2:0(8-bit)->Vegas8->CC->export to 4:2:2(10-bit) codec->distribution method?????

Thanks heaps Bill, a real life saver,

So oneday when i can afford an SDI field recorder with the EX1 which will yeild a mountain of 422 data, i would need CineForm to make a 10bit YUV managble intermediate for edit using an NLE that supports 10bit? i suppose FCP, PP CS3, Avid MC would.

So for now the best option would be to edit, cc, effects on the mxf file using Vegas8 and output to DVD right?

big thanks Bill, btw ur profiles rock with the EX1

Thanks heaps Bill, a real life saver,



So for now the best option would be to edit, cc, effects on the mxf file using Vegas8 and output to DVD right?



thanx...
This workflow will work OK. I'm much happier using Cineform's Neo HD to transcode the .mxf files into CFHD( an .avi wrapped INTRAframe codec). Editting interframe compression like mxf is stressful on your computer. Intraframe compression, like cineform CFHD, cuts better, edits easier, and is less stressful on your processor resources.

Believe me, 32-bit float in Vegas 8b is a REAL can of worms. Your render times go thru the roof and there's NO GUARANTEE what you get back, colorwise.



Spoken like a wise man.
Sony really needs to FIX Vegas.

Bill is right, 32 bit mode is not worth the render time, not to mention the color space games.

I've been using Sony Vegas for years and it's been a constant game on getting the colors and levels correct in the end.

Bill has Edius offered 1920x1080P for the EX1 yet? Last time I spoke to you it was was only 1440x1080. I guess I could get off my lazy azz and look myself! LOL

Hi steve...

nope. Edius will drag and drop EX1 files straight from the BPAV folder, but still doesn't have the HD format(1920x1080)

However, you can import and work with 1440x1080, then export with PROCODER3.05 to 1920x1080. I don't think you lose anything by this workflow.

hows the color precision of the Edius compared to Vegas, CC effects etc for editing with EX1 footage?

Thanks for the info Bill.

My personal opinion, Edius is a very straightforward program. What you see is what you get. It doesn't have the compositing capability vegas has, but, it is reliable. Toss the dice and choose your poison....;o) , I better ask the right questions.
I like edius, but, I like avid, too. Avid will give me everything I ask of it, but, I better ask the right questions. In an emergency, I would pick edius for a reliable cut and edit NLE. If I wanted to get fancy, I'd go for Avid. If I was wanting a quick and dirty, Vegas.

nope. Edius will drag and drop EX1 files straight from the BPAV folder, but still doesn't have the HD format(1920x1080)

How do you mean, Bill - I've been using Edius 1920x1080/50i projects with HQ mxf 25p files with no problems.

Edius Broadcast 4.61 certainly DOES offer full HD (in addition to HDV) format; true there is no 1920x1080/25p preset, but using 50i works just fine also with the EX1's 25p.

My personal opinion, Edius is a very straightforward program. What you see is what you get. It doesn't have the compositing capability vegas has, but, it is reliable. Toss the dice and choose your poison....;o) , I better ask the right questions.
I like edius, but, I like avid, too. Avid will give me everything I ask of it, but, I better ask the right questions. In an emergency, I would pick edius for a reliable cut and edit NLE. If I wanted to get fancy, I'd go for Avid. If I was wanting a quick and dirty, Vegas.

Woah!! Thanks bill, down & dirty i guess! can anyone for the love of GOD suggest the best NLE to stick with the rest of our lives to edit with the EX1, for richer for poor, yada yada....

Ive read that PP CS3 Maintains source integrity with support for 10-bit video and 16-bit PSD files & a 32bit flot render engine. But i guess PP CS3 cuts slow & isnt as ready as Vegas8 for the EX1 files!

All of my EX1 footage gets cut in Vegas Pro 8.0b, not problems at all. Aside from the camera's two audio tracks I also may have another 4 track of BWF from my field recorder. Sync it once and I'm good to go. Cut, mix and do everything on the one timeline, and with a quad core CPU and 2GB of RAM it's all pretty smooth now even with a few audio FXs going on.

About the only thing I'd agree with Bill on is that 32bit FP is a render hog for precious little gain but that's true in any NLE. The other nice thing about Vegas compared to some other choices is it will not clip your super whites, you're left to do with them what you will.

I believe the "it will not clip your super whites" statement, in reference to vegas, is arguable. Clipping of the superwhites is the result of the fact that many cams, including the EX1, record data above RGB235 and below RGB16. It's incumbent on the editor to:
1- set his/her RGB values correctly
2-make sure the NLE handles the transformation to NTSC RGB properly, i.e. remap the values rather than clip them. In this regard, use of a knee in the gamma correction curve is more appropriate than applying some "legacy" correction factor, which in all likelihood, clips rather than remaps.

So, as usual, it's operator error if your NLE clips superwhites. Vegas is more prone to operator error than "the other NLE's" you refer to, in this regard, because the scopes and preview windows don't operate correctly. Most other NLE's set the values automatically. Inherent in automatic(re: brainless) operation is overlooked errors.

In point of fact, the REAL culprit(s) are the codec software writers. Every codec handles the luma transformation differently, and the way the preview window works, you never see the final output on the preview window. It remains for the editor to do a test render of the footage with all the right codecs, to determine if superwhites will be clipped, or not. I submit to you that Sony Vegas does NOT show the proper final picture in their "preview" window, with regard to luma values. This is a flat incorrect mode of operation. For Vegas to handle this entire mess correctly, it should "sense" which codec you're going to render to and display the RENDERED luma values in the image. Curiously, the PROJECT SETTINGS do NOT allow selection of the codec being used.

For everyone's sake, I won't even go into whether REC601 to REC709 chroma transformations are being done right.

How do you mean, Bill - I've been using Edius 1920x1080/50i projects with HQ mxf 25p files with no problems.

Edius Broadcast 4.61 certainly DOES offer full HD (in addition to HDV) format; true there is no 1920x1080/25p preset, but using 50i works just fine also with the EX1's 25p.

Piotr,

I think they were referring to full HD as being 1080p, not 1080i.

Clipping of the superwhites is the result of the fact that many cams, including the EX1, record data above RGB235 and below RGB16.

Ok, PAL user here but isn't this HD/rec. 709 to do away with the 16/235 limitations from SD rec. 601 (for NTSC only)?

Tell me if I'm wrong, please.

George/

George...

Perhaps my use of the term "NTSC" is misleading. I'm trying to avoid using Sony's term "studio RGB". It's a fact that TV phosphors are capable of displaying RGB16-235 only, and will clip any values above or below these levels. while computer monitors can display the full gamut of RGB 0-255. "Broadcast" is probably a better term than NTSC, my apologies.

No Bill it's not you, it's me. I'm mixing stuff up here.

I'm going home to clear my head.

George/

so what on earth would diplay the mess im doing with my cut on my monitor correctly? hook it up to a broadcast monitor via component throuhg something like blackmagic etc?

Bill i think your right there with the colors not being 100% accurate in Vegas, it seems that my panasonic tube interlace TV doesnt like the DVDs i make from Vegas8.

EX1 at 59.9 fps, down to 30p NTSC, edit CC, output to 'DVD atchitect 30p DVD file', burn a DVD with nero, Bang! does look sharp & clean, but it strains everyones eyes to watch my videos, but spiderman dvd looks great on my TV!!

whos the culprit here, Vegas8, color space, framerate, CC or ME?

There is a slight "problem" in MPEG2 codec(at least the Mainconcept variety) that most people don't seem to know about. MPEG2 is the codec that is used to burn DVD's. The MPEG2 codec expects a Broadcast Level input, i.e. RGB 16-235. If you encode with a signal that is RGB 0-255, you'll get an RGB 16-235 signal out, and, you'll truncate or clip any info above RGB235 and below RGB16. The resultant MPEG2 output will look washed out and low contrast, with mushy blacks and blown out whites. WMV, on the other hand, will pass thru whatever input signal you give it. So, feed WMV an RGB0-255 signal and you'll get an RGB0-255 signal out. (credit to Glenn Chan for his white paper describing this issue http://www.glennchan.info/articles/vegas/v8color/v8color.htm )

The only way I've ever been able to definitavely track the conversion in a codec is to carry along a 2-pop. If the pluge bars in the 2-pop look right after I've rendered, I know the encoding was done correctly.

As for using a broadcast TV for display, before you can judge the TV picture, be very sure you're TV set has been calibrated with an NTSC color chart, especially the pluge levels. I notice you live in the Maldives. Not sure if you're NTSC there, but, most commercial DVD players also add "setup" or "pedestal" to their playback. This will change your black levels, too, and it needs to be accounted for when you render out.

The only way I've ever been able to definitavely track the conversion in a codec is to carry along a 2-pop. If the pluge bars in the 2-pop look right after I've rendered, I know the encoding was done correctly.


What's a 2-pop?

the wiki is your friend...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bars_and_tone

Thanks ! Google was bringing up all sorts of piping hardware.

The mpeg-2 encoder will not clip, clamp or do anything to your levels. Encode a 0-235 ramp to mpeg-2 and bring it back, check with scopes. Result is the same as what went into the encoder.
DVD players do generally clamp to legal levels, at least on their composite outputs.

The mpeg-2 encoder will not clip, clamp or do anything to your levels. Encode a 0-235 ramp to mpeg-2 and bring it back, check with scopes. Result is the same as what went into the encoder.
DVD players do generally clamp to legal levels, at least on their composite outputs.

You mean 0-255, Bob?

This is my experience, too. As long as you don't fool with 32bit, the output of Vegas MPEG-2 encoding is identical to the input. I can only agree with what Bill is saying about the preview window, not showing the right space with HDV (or EX's mxf) in 8bit projects. But there are ways to configure the external (secondary) monitor to make for that, too.

PS. Of course this is not to say the same cannot be achieved with 32bit processing; one just needs to know what he's doing, and have plenty of time and/or a very fast CPU...

You mean 0-255, Bob?
.................


Yes, my bad.

What's a 2-pop?

2-Pop Shakur. A rap artist?

:-)

There is a slight "problem" in MPEG2 codec(at least the Mainconcept variety) that most people don't seem to know about. MPEG2 is the codec that is used to burn DVD's. The MPEG2 codec expects a Broadcast Level input, i.e. RGB 16-235. If you encode with a signal that is RGB 0-255, you'll get an RGB 16-235 signal out, and, you'll truncate or clip any info above RGB235 and below RGB16. The resultant MPEG2 output will look washed out and low contrast, with mushy blacks and blown out whites. WMV, on the other hand, will pass thru whatever input signal you give it. So, feed WMV an RGB0-255 signal and you'll get an RGB0-255 signal out.

Hi, thanks a lot Bill, this would clear many heads, about this "problem" with MPEG-2, i cut my project in 23.97fps NTSC DV Vegas8 timeline with mxf files, CC & then output to a 24p NTSC DV MPEG-2 ready for DVD authoring (with pull-down flags embeded), make a progressive capable DVD with Sony DVD architect, doesnt look good!

REASON: the whites look clamped, the blacks are not 'black' my eyes strain watching them, maybe my not so good CC, any suggestion to make this better whith encoding /editing. Thanks

In Vegas, check the colour space set (Advanced Video tab of the "Render as..." template).

In Vegas, check the colour space set (Advanced Video tab of the "Render as..." template).

Render Template: DVD Architect 24p NTSC video stream

Codec: Main Concept MPEG-2 File
DC Coefficient: 9Bit
Video Format: NTSC
Color Primaries: ITU-R Rec 624-4 System M
Transfer: ITU-R Rec 624-4 System M
Matrix Coefficient: ITU-R Rec 624-4 System B, M
VBV Buffer size: 224 Kb
Sampling format: 4:2:0