Anyone try using these types of LED light for video work?

225 WHITE LED Aquarium Grow Light Panel 110 or 240 Volt - eBay (item 110279159843 end time Aug-18-08 21:36:19 PDT) (http://cgi.ebay.com/225-WHITE-LED-Aquarium-Grow-Light-Panel-110-or-240-Volt_W0QQitemZ110279159843QQihZ001QQcategoryZ46314QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trksidZp1713.m153.l1262)

Seems like they could be adapted to fit on a light stand.

Kevin Jones

Interesting... specifies color temperature of 6000-7000 K.

Almost tempted to try one, but I'll wait for you to go first ;)

I just ordered one. I think with a little CTO ... I'll let you know...

I dont care what they say about these led lights and the colour temp I have tried a lot of them and they all look crap to me as they are too green to mix in with any other light source.

Well, the LitePanels LED I use on the camera to match daylight all the time works beautifully. This other is a gamble, but for the price I figure its worth a try.

I'll pick up 2 to test out. I have a couple of small right LED lights which cast blue ~ maybe they can be used together?

And this one could be rigged to mount directly onto your camera - maybe attached to the side mic.

FREE SHIPPING 48 LED Lantern UFO Umbrella AA Tent Light - eBay (item 110280422406 end time Aug-22-08 23:10:24 PDT) (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=110280422406)

kj

Kevin, I have those and they are too weak for most any video application.

Any updates from anyone who's ordered the panel and received it?

As for the UFO light - Yes - great price but very little throw on the light. Very blue and you almost lose the output of the light gelling it down. Works great as a tent light and in my voice over box ;)

I don't see any mention of lumens. John Godwin, please comment on the brightness when you receive them. If they don't work well on video, I'll put them on my fishtank which needs about $40 of fluorescent tubes (two 40W T12's) every few years.

Any updates from anyone who's ordered the panel and received it?

2 panels will be delivered next week! Of course, I'm in Tokyo so it takes more time to get here!

I'm interested to hear how well they work. I would love a light-weight, cool, and relatively less expensive replacement for my trusty Lowell Halogens.
I have a 100 LED flashlight that is powered by 4 AA batteries and it puts out a tremendous amount of light.

kj

They shipped mine fedex ground and it should be in some time next week, it appears.

Look forward to hearing your thoughts. Did you just get one? I was thinking that though one might not cut it, getting a handful might do okay. While I'm sure it won't put out tons of light would still be a lot easier to transport then my Lowell kit, not to mention none of the heat.

- Ray

I'm very interested as well. I do own a 500 LED from FloLight and love it. Fits very nicely in a laptop backpack. Makes for great run and gun. A panel like this, if it could be gelled to daylight temps, would sit nicely with it. Nice light kit for flying with.

cheno

In a dark room, they throw about 3 meters of usage light ... no where near tungsten level. I'd say these lights might work for highlighting.

How's the color temp?

Would you consider it roughly a 250 watt softlight or fluoro equivalent? I know they won't compare to the output of a tungsten lamp.

At the amount of LEDs, I figured it would be nothing more than a small fill or kicker - can't expect much more than that but was interested in it comparing to the other LED lights that claim about 1 watt per LED equivalent.

mike

Like I said, not much light ... less than 250 watts. I don't have a light meter but that's my guess.
Color temp. runs toward blue ... about what you'd expect from super white LEDs.

Unfortunately, what you find with those 5mm LEDs once you start experimenting with them is the best CRI comes from many in the higher color temperatures. Particularly with the 10 to 30 degree ones--which you'll choose if you want a spot with some throw. The 5000K to 6000K range has a terrible CRI normally and is very greenish in many cases. Choose a wider beam angle and of course the light falls off quickly and will have about the same throw as a fluorescent. You can get a decent CRI though with the wide beam LEDs in daylight range. For spots with a lot of power though, 8000K to 9000K is the best range for an LED that has a great CRI, lots of power for the wattage used (yes the lumen values even seem to go up in this range) and in general looks great. You can also find some decent CRI values down in the 3000K range too.

No matter what, you need a good smooth beam with no green or yellow tinged corona or fringe around the center of the beam and thats tough to find in the sharp beam angle 5mm LEDs.

I may pick one up just to play with - worse case it becomes a work light in my garage ;)

We're all anxious to see your new LED offerings shortly, Richard!

mike

I'm happy with my three 500LEDs, but if I gel them down with CTO full to cut in with tungsten, that cuts the output significantly. I'd think with a smaller output unit in that 6000 to 7000 range, it might not be good enough except maybe for just a little fill for certain closeup situations.

Mine arrived today. Pretty much as others have already said.
The unit is very lightweight. The housing is plastic made to look like aluminium.
The back panel is thin MDF, would not withstand much abuse.
Should be easy enough to adapt to fit light stands etc due to the light weight.
The beam is quite narrow, CT as advertised i.e. rather blue. I don't have a means to measure CRI but I'd say no different to what you get with the cheap LED torches.
If you can find a use for it good value for the money.
I'm thinking to buy 10 units. Using industrial Velcro on the sides they could be joined together in a 5 x 2 array to create a large light source.

Care to post any pics, Bob?

I may pick one up just to play with. I have one of the Flolight 500's and absolutely love it for portability. I know Coollights is working on some LED solutions that will probably match anything out there currently but this particular aquarium panel was interesting to me.

Could it be gelled down to 5600k or thereabouts and still maintain any output?

mike

Been doing it for a while now. I rigged a Lupine Wilma to my camcorder to great effect. Soon to be upgrading to a Lupine Betty-X ...
Betty X Pro - GRETNA BIKES LLC, LUPINE North America (http://gretnabikes.com/lupine_betty_xpro.asp)
LED-Z is pretty good too.

Is there such thing as LED fresnel at this time?

Mainly interested in high output, hard light for backlight/hair/accents.

Trying to move everything from tungsten to Fluorescents, but what to do with hard lights?

In the summer of 2007 I had great hopes of making a fresnel with a 60w LED from Taiwan but there were a number of issues that kept it from happening. #1 issue -- the cost was too high. By the time we got through this thing would have been close to a $1000 selling price and we just don't see the value there. A $1000 fresnel that puts out about the equivalent of a 300w tungsten. Also, the surface area emanating light was not a true point source and it didn't work correctly with the reflector that came with it. Color temperature was in the 4000K range and CRI was terrible. On top of all that, the heat sink had to be super big to keep the LED healthy so I gave up on that.

Next, we found that Luxim Lifi unit which has some promise, but its current form isn't suitable for stage / studio lighting IMHO. It comes in a fairly large package with heat sink and fan built in. The package alone keeps it from being in a fresnel type fixture. The fan was also a deal breaker.

So, for now, metal halide continues to be the king of energy efficient point light sources for fresnels and pars. Any LED or similar type advance needs to not have such high heat output requiring a huge heat sink or fan and we also need to be able to focus it into a beam as necessary whereas the high wattage LEDs come in a wide beam pattern of 90 degrees or above in most cases today and that won't work for a fresnel.

Hi all, first post after lurking around here for two years.

Saw that the Betty Pro mountain bike lights were mentioned, so I thought I'd chime in.

I shoot nature stuff - mostly close-ups and macro (snakes, lizards, frogs, evertebrates) but also animals not so close. I wanted a small and lightweight but powerful lighting system, so ca half a year ago I invested in two Lupine Betty Pro (1400 Lumen each) lightheads. I power them by one small Li-ion battery strapped to the handle of my EX1. These lights have a narrow beam that is un-suitable for anything but telephoto, so I have opaque diffusors attached ca 5 cm in front of the lights. Gives very soft and even light for macro shots. If there's a mammal or bird at greater distance, I tear off the diffusors and go tele.

These lights have a very blueish light, some 8600 to 8800 Kelvin. That mostly works fine for me since I rarely have other (disturbing) light sources when out in the field.

The biggest problem with these lights is the dimming circuits. I get rolling interference patterns - you know, like shooting a CRT screan - when dimming the lights. Haven't been able to get around it by any trick. But that's manageable: I just go full power and kick in the ND filter or make aperture adjustments.

The good thing about these lights is the small form factor and their high power.
They are not cheap, though.

Cheers,
Bjorn

Can high output flashlights be used for this purpose?

I've used high output LED flashlights in a pinch and one just a few days ago as an on camera light - I built a little softbox for it and threw on some CTO to color correct it. Worked like a champ but a bit more directional than I wanted.

There are some good flashlights that can be had for fairly cheap and work fairly well for on camera type work. I wouldn't use them for lighting talent in an interview situation but I have shown in some lighting classes 3-point lighting with an LED flashlight, mirror and pizza box lid ;)

I shoot nature stuff - mostly close-ups and macro (snakes, lizards, frogs, evertebrates) but also animals not so close. I wanted a small and lightweight but powerful lighting system, so ca half a year ago I invested in two Lupine Betty Pro (1400 Lumen each) lightheads. I power them by one small Li-ion battery strapped to the handle of my EX1. These lights have a narrow beam that is un-suitable for anything but telephoto, so I have opaque diffusors attached ca 5 cm in front of the lights. Gives very soft and even light for macro shots. If there's a mammal or bird at greater distance, I tear off the diffusors and go tele.

Those 1400 lumen ones claim they draw something like 24 watts at full power. I'd love to know how they do that without a big heatsink. Do they tend to run hot?

Richard,

The Betty Pro's do get fairly hot. There's supposedly a built-in overheating protection that dims the light when the lamp gets too hot. Considering my earlier note on interference effects (rolling bands over the video) when dimming these lights, that could be a severe shortcoming. But I am yet to see the overheating protection kick in, even though I'm shooting in the tropics at a (night) temperature of ca 26 degrees C and often with very little wind. I normally only turn the lights on for shorter durations, though. If you try long shots there may be nasty effects turning up.

The reason I have mounted the diffusors 5 cm in front of the lampheads it to allow ample air circulation.


Regarding LED flashlights - and here I mean the high-power LED ones, not just any LED torch - the ones I've seen had an effect of 3W. That's considerably lower than the Betty Pro (which I recalled being 21 or 22W).

/Bjorn

The rolling issue you're seeing will be PWM dimming where the frequency wasn't high enough so there is some flicker. Its not something you'd notice by eye and this light wasn't made specifically for video so they didn't think a higher frequency would be necessary no doubt.

I've mentioned on this site about a year ago some info on some 22 million candle power HID rechargeable spot lights that I picked up at Sams Club..... I use them when shooting street scenes at night and place them half a block away just to create a little more of a 3d look to the lighting. They are about 6000k..... with a 4" front lens size. I have 6 of them, and they do come in handy. I'll bounce them off of walls, foam core, shine them through windows at night..... and they work really good for a rim light for a live concert feel in music videos.

Sam's has not had them in a while..... they tend to get a pallet and then when it's gone it's gone. they eventually were marked do to $64.... hard for me to pass so I bought the last few.

I always pack them for location jobs.... don't always use them, but when I do I'm thankful.

I think they had a ceramic 35W HID bulb... I'm sure Richard knows more about this type of light than I do....

As for LED lights.... I've bought quite a few just to try.... I have a few of the 500LED's from flolight and love them.... but they are best for small sets light interviews or narrative scenes.... I have no complaints about the quality of light they shine... here's a "message" video shot with them just a few weeks ago....

Dr. Mccall By chris witzke On ExposureRoom (http://exposureroom.com/71a3944397174445b7f6f876faf69c56/)

very easy lights to work with for a one man band like me..... I even have some 12v batts that I velcro to their backs that last about an hour if I need to go cordless.

I can't wait until Richard starts selling LED's..... my hope is that he makes some larger and more powerful lights to replace all of my 4 and 6 bank flo lights..... I just hate traveling with flos.... always worried that bulbs will break. THIS is the only reason that I like LED lights.... TOUGH! So... I would love LED lights that are about 18"X24" and put out about as much light as a 4 bank flo. 3 of these in a tough ATA case would be awesome for location work!


I already own a few of Richard's 150 hmi Fresnel's and absolutely love them! I'll be buying more soon! Here's a few still shots where I used them.... some hard, some bounced....

http://www.witzke-studio.com/witzke_images/0009.jpg

http://www.witzke-studio.com/witzke_images/0002.jpg

these lights are basically like a arri 650.... but they are daylight!

Christopher, what a fantastic photography! Thanks for the pics.

Dr McCall Video: what exactly was the lighting setup there, do you recall?

Christopher, what a fantastic photography! Thanks for the pics.

Dr McCall Video: what exactly was the lighting setup there, do you recall?

sure... here's what I recall.....

but... I'm not showing the teleprompter on the camera here.... don't know/think it's cutting the exposure down much through the beam splitter.

Christopher, thanks for the schematics.

I had a feeling you did away with only one key light :)

Since your hair light was to the side, it did provide a nice kick on the side of the presenter's face, though.

Question about HIDs. If we are talking non-portable ones... is there a way to make a fresnel out of something like this:

150 Watt Hid Light Bulb (http://www.lowes.com/lowes/lkn?action=productDetail&productId=88515-3-67447&detail=desc&lpage=none)

?

(also... I feel that maybe I'm hijacking this thread, sorry... should we make another one on HID lighting?)

Hey Christopher, nice footage & thanks for sharing!

Just wanted to share my opinion on the lighting and talent position, please accept it as constructive.

I would have enjoyed more key on the subject as there was not much of a ratio between subject and background. The hotter kicker was drawing my attention.

Also, I would have enjoyed the talent to be angled a little more to the key rather than the camera. He was kind of square shouldered.

Also, a tighter shot would give the appearance of a more personal connection, maybe a creep in as the speech unfurls.

Best of luck!

Question about HIDs. If we are talking non-portable ones... is there a way to make a fresnel out of something like this:

150 Watt Hid Light Bulb (http://www.lowes.com/lowes/lkn?action=productDetail&productId=88515-3-67447&detail=desc&lpage=none)

?

(also... I feel that maybe I'm hijacking this thread, sorry... should we make another one on HID lighting?)

I'm afraid it wouldn't make a good fresnel. #1 problem is its Sodium vapor. The light it puts out is monochromatic in the 2000K range and extremely low CRI because it is monochromatic. What you need is regular metal halide in a suitable color temperature and CRI. But even if the bulb was metal halide, the #2 problem would be that its too big. The point light source won't be as fine as what you would hope for. And the fresnel would be big too to accomodate the bulb. You would have the feeling that your large fresnel was underpowered. Something in this size format is more suited to a flood light or softbox type fixture. Even then, I might choose a 250w or 400w bulb of similar form factor for that use which would be more the equivalent of something from 1000w to 1600w.

Hey Christopher, nice footage & thanks for sharing!

Just wanted to share my opinion on the lighting and talent position, please accept it as constructive.

I would have enjoyed more key on the subject as there was not much of a ratio between subject and background. The hotter kicker was drawing my attention.

Also, I would have enjoyed the talent to be angled a little more to the key rather than the camera. He was kind of square shouldered.

Also, a tighter shot would give the appearance of a more personal connection, maybe a creep in as the speech unfurls.

Best of luck!


well, I would not call him talent as he is the president of a 17 campus college system.

I like the way he is lit.... gives shape.... I think I know what I'm doing.

I only had a few minutes of his time and he nailed his "speech" from the teleprompter in one take. He is over to the left for several reasons.... 1. because I'm a believer in 2/3rds rule when composing... and 2. because there will be "copy" placed to the right of him referring to topics he is discussing. ( this is a rough draft.... no layers yet ) and 3. he's no supermodel and I'm not about to use a cybil shepard filter on him.

As this video will be a "web view" I can always creep in on him in post... but I'm not going to.

Tell you what I do need advice on though..... I just can't pick drapes.... can you help me with my interior design?

LOL, Christopher - not with interior design, but...

1. Have you thought of doing all your set interviews as green screen instead.

Then you'd only care about lighting the talent, and you could insert any background design you wanted, in post.

I've done green screen extensively in my studio, but never on location - mainly because it's very hard to light the green screen right, especially on location.

But - I hear stories (including from Philip Bloom) that Reflecmedia kits eliminate such hassle.

So then you could do Reflecmedia for background (no lighting at all, and complete freedom of what it will look like in post), and say your two LED lights for talent only.

2. Why LED and not Fluo lights? I bought 2 Fluo lights in almost exactly the same fixtures like you have, one light is 4x 55W Osrams, another 6x 55W. 5500K. Looks great in limited tests, did not try on anything real yet. Seems like Fluorescents have better diffusion and cost so much less than LED lights...

Christopher,

Sorry I put you on the defensive.

I look at this website as a place of learning and open exchange.

There are so many ways to light a scene, just thought I would tell you what went through my mind as I watched the clip.

BTW, by mentioning angled talent I was referring to the angle of the shoulders with regards to the camera rather than shot composition.

LOL, Christopher - not with interior design, but...

1. Have you thought of doing all your set interviews as green screen instead.

Then you'd only care about lighting the talent, and you could insert any background design you wanted, in post.

I've done green screen extensively in my studio, but never on location - mainly because it's very hard to light the green screen right, especially on location.

But - I hear stories (including from Philip Bloom) that Reflecmedia kits eliminate such hassle.

So then you could do Reflecmedia for background (no lighting at all, and complete freedom of what it will look like in post), and say your two LED lights for talent only.

2. Why LED and not Fluo lights? I bought 2 Fluo lights in almost exactly the same fixtures like you have, one light is 4x 55W Osrams, another 6x 55W. 5500K. Looks great in limited tests, did not try on anything real yet. Seems like Fluorescents have better diffusion and cost so much less than LED lights...

normally I do prefer the 4 and 6 bank flos... but they were set up in another room for the other shot..... also, I thankful for their ( 500led ) light weight and can carry 2 on stands at a time.

like I said.... I only had a few minutes of his time and needed to get set up fast.

I've done a few green screen shoots with great success.... but sometimes it's just not an option. and.... I try not to freak out a subject like this one by making it a big production. Having a 24" 1080p monitor near the camera showing how it all looks really helped him get in the mode for it.... a literal view.

Like I said earlier in the thread.... the LEDs are fantastic for quick setup and durability.... I can rely on them to work. they do not compete with the output and quality of light that the 2, 4, and 6 bank flo lights do.

Christopher,

Sorry I put you on the defensive.

I look at this website as a place of learning and open exchange.

There are so many ways to light a scene, just thought I would tell you what went through my mind as I watched the clip.

BTW, by mentioning angled talent I was referring to the angle of the shoulders with regards to the camera rather than shot composition.


That's cool... I realize your just trying to help. I'm sure If I had more time on this shoot I would have styled it a little better. But I think a better tone to this forum would be to answer when asked... unsolicited opinions are rarely appreciated in any environment. This thread is about LED lights and I was adding to their merits and disadvantages via example.

They availability of low cost flo, led & hmi lights have made it much easier to achieve stylized images in both video and still photography.... I have started using continuous daylight fixtures in my commercial still photography more then ever.... not having to wait for my strobes to recycle.... really seeing what you get rather then having to look at a monitor for a preview is really nice.... the downside is that I tend to shoot a lot more frames.... a typical still shoot for a single layout can yield a 20GB folder of raw 16bit images with my canon 1ds3 or phaseone back. It's kind of interesting that when I opened my studio in 1989, I shot mostly 4X5 and 8X10 and used tungsten lights to shoot most things... Getting back to continuous lights feels more like home. If I had not entered into shooting HD video a few years ago ( client wanted footage of product spinning for tradeshow 50" screen ) I don't think I would have discovered that these LED's or Richards 150 hmi lights existed. Richard... you have a whole other audience to sell your lights to.... us still photogs!

Like I said earlier.... I do have a wish list of lights that do not exist.... large ( 18" X 24" ) LED daylight panels.... very thin, very light, 12v xlr, 4 times brighter than a 500led ( 2000 leds? ) just a simple fixture with black barn doors and bank switchable ( or dim'able if it keeps it's color ) .... I'd pay $1500 each for em and sell all my flo lights. I'd compliment them with 150 to 575 hmi fresnels.



chriswitzke.com

the LEDs are fantastic for quick setup and durability.... I can rely on them to work. they do not compete with the output and quality of light that the 2, 4, and 6 bank flo lights do.

You mean, Flos are inferior in quality of light, in your opinion?

I haven't used LEDs myself, but heard that their light is harsher than Flo produces, although gives a little more throw so LEDs can be positioned a bit father from the subject. True?

Alex,

I think Christopher was noting that the LEDs couldn't compare with the Fluoros. The 500 LED is a sweet light and falls somewhere in the middle of a softlight and spotlight. It's a harder light than a fluoro source but it's compact, which for me, allows me to travel with the light, plus a 250 watt pro light, plus my laptop in a carry on when I need to do run and gun stuff. Nice to not have to pack it so TSA can't destroy it.

If I had my druthers, I'd take as many fluoro options as possible with me, but for easy of use and mobility, the LED panels are really nice.

You mean, Flos are inferior in quality of light, in your opinion?

I haven't used LEDs myself, but heard that their light is harsher than Flo produces, although gives a little more throw so LEDs can be positioned a bit father from the subject. True?

the flos are a better light... regarding their light. The leds are better regarding how they travel and how tough they are.... but the flos are more accurate in color.... not by much, but if you A-B them, they look more natural.

yes the leds throw further.... kind of like a cross between a fresnel and a flo. they are fantastic for a soft hair or side light. Throw a scrap of diffusion on them and they soften up nicely.

My reason for preferring the LEDS is purely for their ability to travel well and how light in weight they are. When I travel a few hours with flo lights, I have to make effort to get them not to rattle in the back of the vehicle and to make sure nothing will hurt them.... the LEDS can just be thrown in with the rest of the gear... you could practically drive a car over them!

Would I be happy with a bunch of 500leds and no flos? yes ( they are good enough ) Hell, I love to have 20 of these little buggers! turn em on they they are instantly ready!

But I would LOVE a bigger light! a vertical 18"X24"X2" LED....

Incidentally, I was looking for a hair/backlight with harder light than Flos give.

Tough construction + lightweight + small dimensions + 12V native + bright + hard light (I want it)...

You guys are raving about LED 500's so much, I'll give them a look :)

By the way, is Flolight supplier the only game in town (on the budget)?

in the sub $500... yes.... they also sell a 1000led for sub $900... then there is the litepanel 12"X12" but it's above $1500...

Richard can chime in here.... as he is "the man" regarding all of these overseas sourced lights. He will have a LED source out in the future and it will be the light to own!

The panel that Flolights sells is made by a company in China called Yuyao Lishaui Photo Facility--in Yuyao China. They also make the non-dimmable flos that Flolights and Fotodiox sell.

I first saw that panel at a show here in China in the Fall of 2007 and thought of picking it up and selling it. I had no idea Flolights was going to sell it. I don't think anyone else in the USA is carrying it either but it wouldn't surprise me to see someone like Fotodiox start carrying it since they also buy flos from Lishuai.

We had already started a project for a 250 light LED small panel around the time I saw that model, which I never did anything with because I didn't like the LEDs we had chosen at the time--its so hard to find good ones.

Anyway, I was looking for something to offer in the LED line at that time. I bought an evaluation model and looked the Lishaui 500 over, but I had a number of issues with it. Thus, that's why I didn't carry it either--including the slight greenish tinge that the LEDs have. I also thought it was a bit overpriced for what it was. We decided we could do it better and could also try to keep a tight reign on costs using our methods and contractor factories, so we've been working on that between our other projects. The main holdup has been finding a really good LED thats not going to break the bank.

I try to find things off the shelf but often end up designing our own to keep costs down and offer the products at miracle type prices whenever possible. I hope our 600 LED panel intro pricing will fall into the $249 to $300 range and that's just about right for the kind of light that this type of panel is and what it can do. It'll be much like a 600 to 650w fresnel stuck in spot mode.

Darnit, Richard! Hurry up! :)

I need to upgrade my lights SOON. My DIY kit is great for some things, but I really could use something like the 500LED light.

I find that I often set up 3 or 4 lights (daylight) and leave two or three of them alone but one or two of them get moved around constantly when adjusting camera angle. I just can't seem to light a room and keep all the lights stationary. There always seems to be adjustment needed to get rid of a glare or shadow, usually from the key. My DIY lights are a bit rickety and bulky which makes them a hassle if lots of adjustments are needed. They also each take up a 12-gallon plastic crate so three of them is a whole handtruck load.

In other situations, I am in a run-n-gun mode and can only use one light due to time and elements like cramped quarters. A single daylight fixture to balance out a scene in a windowed room can work wonders.

I need something like the 500LED because it has minimal power requirements, it takes up little space in both the kit and location, and it is instant-on so it can be moved from one shot to the next without delay.

Unfortunately, I can only afford one light at this time and I have several paying gigs that need more lights than I own in a couple of months. I can borrow one light but rentals are not feasible due to the extra time needed for pickup and delivery. Small jobs just don't justify an extra two hours (and gas) to rent a light.

Maybe you need a beta-tester sometime soon?