Movies use H264 compression, shoots to .mov. Max length of 29min 59secs or 4GB of data. I think any more than that and it legally has to be called a video camera. Dan

Only 12 minutes in High Def, 4GB max is correct.

Tried a few more movie clips on the D90 today, my Canon XH A1 is still safe for now.

I think that the 5d2 will be a fantastic still camera, and also produce some fantastic video.... but.... I feel that it will require some "work arounds" when shooting video. Much like the canon hv20 does when going for a "controlled" shooting workflow.

As an owner of both a 1ds3 and a sony ex-1, I'm accustomed to the way they work and feel more comfortable using each for what they do best.

The 5d2 would be fine for some basic filming, but when you need to shoot longer takes, slow zoom takes, run and gun style takes.... it will be awkward. I would imagine that the "auto only" audio will also require additional expense and workfolw work arounds.

If for the sole purpose of shallow depth of field style filming.... it will shine. But... most money making video projects require more than just shallow dof.

I would guess that 80% of the income I generate from video is done with longer takes, smoother steadicam takes, and wireless lav accessed manual audio.... the ex1 shines here.

If it were me..... I think I would get a 1st gen 5d for stills* and a good 24p solid state video camera with XLR in for vid. Things like "shot transition" and "OIS" are very nice to have in a video camera.

This is all just my opinion.... but I think I would get some strange looks from my clients if I showed up with a 5d2 for a paid video shoot.

* I make most of my income as a professional still photographer shooting print ad work.... which requires tethered shooting and very high pixel count. I shoot with hassleblad and phaseone backs, and canon 1ds3 when speed is needed.

witzke-studio.com

Here is a revolution,
look at those samples:
Canon EOS 5D Mark II (http://web.canon.jp/imaging/eosd/eos5dm2/02.html#01)

And look at this analysis from Norwegian Television:
Video test clips from Canon 5D Mark II gets analyzed (http://nrkbeta.no/video-test-clips-from-canon-5d-mark-ii-gets-analyzed/)

Look at this review of the 5dmkll . He looking for a hoster , Chris . Seems to be elated about the quality of the video coming out of this camera . Ahhh, it's terrible , I can't afford to spend 3k for another camera this year , but I do already own some nice canon lenses , so......

Vincent Laforet’s Blog (http://blog.vincentlaforet.com/2008/09/20/something-very-interesting-is-comingboth-to-this-blog-and-to-our-i)

And a video presentation of the beast (rather badly produce..)
YouTube - Canon EOS 5D Mark II hands on EXCLUSIVE - EOS 5D comparison (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ns1TYN4mPF0&eurl=http://multimediaevangelist.com/2008/09/21/youtube-video-digital-slr-user-canon-eos-5d-mark-ii-hands-on/)

Here is another views on the Canon 5D Mark II from a professional photographer

Canon 5D Mark II video capture is comparable to $500K pro video equipment? - SlashGear (http://www.slashgear.com/canon-5d-mark-ii-video-capture-is-comparable-to-500k-pro-video-equipment-2116819/)

Vincent Laforet’s Blog (http://blog.vincentlaforet.com/2008/09/20/something-very-interesting-is-comingboth-to-this-blog-and-to-our-industry/)

Hi Sina, your first link is just a blurb which points to your second link.

Your second link has already been posted to this thread by someone else earlier today.

Y'all please follow the course of the discussion and limit your replies to *new* material that hasn't been previously posted -- remember the goal on this site is to try to streamline these threads and keep them as lean as possible. Once is enough for any given link, whether it's internal or external.

I understand that there as those folks who choose not to read the entire thread... and that's fine but please don't add anything unless you're sure that it has not been added before. At least go back and review page or two or three before hitting the reply button. I really appreciate your cooperation on this one.

Lean -- direct -- concise -- *non-repetitive.* That's what we're going for here. The more repetitive and circular a discussion thread is, the faster its value diminishes. My apologies for the off-topic post but I don't want us running around in circles with the same material posted over and over again. Thanks in advance,

Sorry! You're definitely right Chris! . . my big apology for not reading the whole thread before posting those Links, please do delete it if needs be. . Thanks for mentioning.

Only 12 minutes in High Def, 4GB max is correct.

Tried a few more movie clips on the D90 today, my Canon XH A1 is still safe for now.

The low light performance of the 5DII is reported to be much better than than any of Canon's camcorders, also from Vincent Laforet's blog:

"It produces the best video in low light that I’ve ever seen - at 1080p. A top commercial film editor who who regularly edits RED camera footage - and has seen the raw footage from the 5D MKII - says the 5D MKII is “far superior to the RED camera” in terms of low light performance…"

Remember too this is Canon first 35mm cmos video release. From what we're seen reported so far all of Canon's higher end camcorders will change. Of course the 5DII will have many shortcoming as a fully featured camcorder. But you do get, for free ,the highest quality 35mm DSLR in the deal.

The 5DII 24x36 mm sensor is more than 2 times the size of the red 4K sensor. Canon is using about 1/6 of it's resolution. Is it going to be difficult to realease a product that uses it's full resolution? I very much doubt it.

Sony and Panasonic are presumably coming with this tech too.

Put Red's announcements and comments in this context of the 5DII and 35mm cmos video: The new Red 5K, Red is entering the DSLR market, Red's most important asset is its software. Red is about to be dancing with elephants and they know it.

You're probably correct. Look, I think we're a little harsh on the video. So far, both Canon and Nikon have provided the equivalent of what they provide on P&S cameras. Many DSLR users resist this new feature. Video users will wait for an entirely new set of features before using it. Very few video users will trade their primary camcorder for these DSLRs, so I can see why Canon and Nikon didn't delay the introduction of their 1.0 feature set. I bet 2.0 is under development. It may also be the case that given the size of the software, it may not be possible to keep both an SLR program and a robust camcorder program in the camera at one time. They may have to increase the internal memory size. Note that many prosumer P&S cameras and many video camcorders (notably every prosumer Sony) requires you to restart the camera to switch between Video Player and Camcorder modes. Personally, I've always found this to be a nuisance.


The significance is not the the general usefullness but the core technology and image quality, especially in low to very low light. The simple fact that Canon's camera division releases a $2600 DSLR and exclipses the XL H1 in IQ means that big changes are about to happen.

3 CCD comcorders are about to become oldschool.

I understand the enthusiasm, I also have it, but the CMOS rolling shutter effect is clearly visible, and this waving effect seems to be very hard to eliminate in post

its sad, so close to get it!

I had a photographer friend send me this link (http://blog.vincentlaforet.com/2008/09/20/something-very-interesting-is-comingboth-to-this-blog-and-to-our-industry/) today.

Interested to hear the evaluations from those who shoot HD and/or are using 35mm adapters. What more does this camera need to work for you?

jones

I don't know how many videographer will be purchasing this camera. I could see the photographers at stillmotion finding a use for this camera since the photographers and videographers are from the same company. I think if videographers started bringing still equipment with them the photographers would get pretty upset with us.

Ok so I that paragraph doesn't make sense. But what I was trying to say is I don't know how we could use still photo equipment that shoots video where photographers are present. They may feel like we are stepping on their domain. Another thing is they mention how they think this camera will out perform any $100k plus video camera and I doubt that is true at all. Again, I can see some uses for it, but I think what we really need to be excited for here is the fact that Canon may start to bring some of this technology to video cameras. Large sensor size EOS mounts and card based recording. Hopefully though in a video form factor.

That would be helpful for our event video industry. I do believe the low light function of this camera brought into the Canon line of video cameras would greatly improve the quality of our work with less powerful lights that distract the wedding goers. As well as the ability to get more DoF to help us tell our stories.

I haven't seen any evidence of this waving effect with this 5dII (yet?)

However the thought has crossed my mind as to why the official canon samples have zero camera movement, except for the fisheye city shot panning very, very slowly.
Im hoping it doesn't exist.

What exactly is the CMOS rolling shutter effect? Does that mean, whenever the camera pans, or moves, it causes "strobing", or "ghosting", whatever you want to call it. I was about to buy the xh-a1, but now... I might have to get this instead. Man, this is crazy.

well That article does state something silly, to say that it will produce the same video as a 100k camera which I think is a bit of overstatement. I have seen the D90 footage (Flowers by D90 on Vimeo (http://www.vimeo.com/1694439)) and there is rolling shutter galore so if its anything like that there wouldn't be much point as it would be only good for static camera shots, I have yet to see some paning/moving footage to make a real judgement, on the article there is a comment with a link to a video which is a locked down shot and there is still artefacts.

Also the physical shape of a still camera is not that great for shooting video. Just like we can shoot stills with our HD cams doesn't mean we now use that for taking photos even if the camera were as good quality as a DSLR, for example the Scarlet will be only $3k and I am sure still frames from that would be up there with expensive DSLRs if its anything like the RED shots I've seen but still its developed to capture motion not stills. Simply put get the right tool for the job.

What exactly is the CMOS rolling shutter effect? Start here: "rolling shutter" - Google Search of DV Info Net (http://www.google.com/custom?domains=www.dvinfo.net&q=%22rolling+shutter%22&sa=Search&sitesearch=www.dvinfo.net&client=pub-0617588134328599&forid=1&ie=ISO-8859-1&oe=ISO-8859-1&safe=active&cof=GALT%3A%23008000%3BGL%3A1%3BDIV%3A%23336699%3BVLC%3A663399%3BAH%3Acenter%3BBGC%3AFFFFFF%3BLBGC%3 A336699%3BALC%3A0000FF%3BLC%3A0000FF%3BT%3A000000%3BGFNT%3A0000FF%3BGIMP%3A0000FF%3BFORID%3A1&hl=en)

Start here: "rolling shutter" - Google Search of DV Info Net (http://www.google.com/custom?domains=www.dvinfo.net&q=%22rolling+shutter%22&sa=Search&sitesearch=www.dvinfo.net&client=pub-0617588134328599&forid=1&ie=ISO-8859-1&oe=ISO-8859-1&safe=active&cof=GALT%3A%23008000%3BGL%3A1%3BDIV%3A%23336699%3BVLC%3A663399%3BAH%3Acenter%3BBGC%3AFFFFFF%3BLBGC%3 A336699%3BALC%3A0000FF%3BLC%3A0000FF%3BT%3A000000%3BGFNT%3A0000FF%3BGIMP%3A0000FF%3BFORID%3A1&hl=en)

Even going through the countless results I find its many people talking about their problems with it and what cameras have it and what cameras don't. I still don't know what it is.

I went back and read through the entire thread and found out what it is (sorry for making this thread fatter, Chris). Louis, here's a good example of it: Video of Nikon D90 Wobble Test - Photobucket - Video and Image Hosting (http://s477.photobucket.com/albums/rr134/jamesmel9/?action=view&current=DSC_0012.flv)

That's what I thought it was... Let's hope the the 5dII doesn't do this! My brain is trying to digest all this information. This is nuts! Just when I thought being a filmmaker was getting easy and I had the best set-up... btw, my friends who shoot professional wedding photography are drooling all over this.

How many would be EOS 5D Mk.II 1080p creations will find an audience by ignoring 5 million Blu-ray players? 30p isn't going to cut it. It isn't supported. Not having manual controls doesn't cut it either.

Despite it's large format sensor, when it's viewed on 1080p HDTV monitors, it has resolution no better. Being able to use DSLR lenses is neat. But nobody looking at the images knows what difference that makes.

So it comes down to two things, depth of field and low light, both of which are easily managed now without DSLRs.

What it all means, is the EOS 5D Mk.II will make obsolete HD video cams when phone cams replace DSLRs. There are probably some people who think that will happen, but if the photographer hired for your wedding is using a cell phone cam, I wouldn't be ordering extra prints.

...5 million Blu-ray players? 30p isn't going to cut it. It isn't supported. I see that as a Blu-ray problem... which in my opinion the Blu-ray consortium really needs to fix.

Cell phone cameras? What the junk? Dude, all I am saying is, to be able to have this as an "add-on" to what they're already doing is gonna be awesome for them and any photographer. To be able to throw video at client, along with sweet photos is not fair. Haha. (if there are two shooters, obviously). Not to mention, it also ties in with the promo work they do for their and site and blog, thus meaning they don't have to invest in a camcorder, but instead they can us an SLR which they're already familiar with. If you can't get it, that's beyond me. There is just... unlimited possibilities with this cam for anyone who works in photography, plain and simply. Yes, 30f is a drawback. But it's a minor drawback. An average client isn't gonna notice the difference between 24p and 30. I can kind of see why see Canon chose 30f as the fate rate. I could elaborate on this more, but you get the picture.

i need a new DSLR and am considering the canon 5dmk2 over the nikon d700 because of its video capabilities, despite the fact that the 5d has an inferior AF.

now, the 5d shoots at 30p. that's useless except for computers and was probably done on purpose to protect canons videocams. is there a way to convert 30p to 25p (pal) and dont get gargabe out of it?

Shake perphaps?

Simon,

If you are still following this thread I'd like to try and explain the logic of these developments from Canon and Nikon to you. I'd also like to say how much I've appreciated your knowledge of XDCAM over the past couple of years.

Cameras like the 5DmkII and to a lesser extent the D90 are aimed at people like me, I know this because I've spent time talking, drinking and dining with to the people who actually make these cameras, most recently at the Beijing Olympics.

I like many other photojournalists are now being expected to shoot still and video, not just low quality crap, but broadcast quality. Whilst I agree this is practically impossible to shoot stills and video in some fast situations, there are many others when it makes sense, especially if you are the only person at the right place at the right time. My fellow Guardian photojournalist Sean Smith's recent RTS award for work in Iraq is proof of logic behind this. For international news agencies like Associated Press, Reuters, AFP and Gettyimages it all makes sense too. Associated Press for instance just started kitting photographers out with Sony EX-1 cameras, now they might not need to. You may not like multiskilling, but if you are asked to do it I believe in doing it to the best of your ability, that and I actually like making video (though I prefer stills)

Currently in addition to my Nikon cameras I have to choose which video camera to carry. I own a DSR-500 with 2 lenses, 2 Sony EX-1's with a Brevis, in addition to Canon HV20 and 30. Hopefully in the future I might only need to carry the D-SLR bodies. Trust me I understand that ergonomics of D-SLR's don't really work well for video yet (my fortnight with the D90 has taught me that), but I think it's solvable with a little ingenuity. My Redrock micro shoulder mount can be used with a HDMI monitor I think.

Where I think Canon may have slipped up wih 30p this time is not understanding that photojournalists will want to have the option of suppling not just web but also PAL and NTSC broadcast. Whether this be a cat up a tree for the local cable channel or a dramatic war video you need the option to deliver to broadcasters. In my bureau I sometimes work with C4 and ITV news, 30p just doesn't work for me.

It seems 30p is just too much hassle unless someone can find a simple solution. Hopefully the next generation of pro D-SLR's will rectify this as well as include proper audio controls , even lower base sensitivities (to make up for lack of built in ND), zebras and peaking, and tilting LCD screens/proper viewfinder options.

Dan

For frame rate conversion do we think this will work? EDIROL VC-300HD Multi-format Converter :: Specifications (http://www.roland.com/PRODUCTS/EN/VC-300HD/specs.html)

Dan

Dan,

I'd checkout TMPGEnc Xpress 4.0. I can convert pretty much anything into anything. It's a $100 piece of software.

peter, how good is this piece of software, can it bring HD footage from 30fps to 25fps (PAL, either progressive or interlaced) with acceptable results? it looks too cheap to me, more than for the amateur (but what do i know).

Havent used Shake, but i guess converting a finished short clip (say 10 minutes) in "optical flow" might take A LOT of time and a fully charged monster octo powermac.

Hold on a second here, Im just after realising something.
Are we here in pal land not due a pal version of this camera?

That would be a first.

I cant imagine canon excluding half (very approx) the world simply because of frame rates.

I personally wouldn't bother with this camera if every clip needed to be converted.

Simply put get the right tool for the job.

I agree - but will photographers be able to put together a "good enough" product to cut us out of the loop?

The author states: "Max - I don’t plan on shooting a single assignment solely with stills ever again… shooting video with is camera over the weekend ranks up there as one of the most fun things I’ve ever done in my career… I can’t wait to get my hands on this camera again…"

While I am glad that photographers are realizing how fun and cool it is to become a filmmaker, I don't want them to realize it too much!!!

jones

Interesting stuff to say the least.

I would love to see the video. I emailed offering hosting for the video. I have seen the others and think its pretty amazing stuff but I won't be selling my XL-H1a anytime soon :)

There really is no PAL model, just a 30p version globally. That said the Nikon D90 is 24p globally.

Dan

I see that as a Blu-ray problem... which in my opinion the Blu-ray consortium really needs to fix.

30p works just fine in a 60i container.....its just duplicated fields......so, stuff shot on 30p can easily be put on blu-ray...and it should look identical to the 30p....

"There really is no PAL model, just a 30p version globally. That said the Nikon D90 is 24p globally" - Dan


They need to see to that.

Just out of curiosity, which would make a better transfer to 25p,- 24p or 30p?

...will photographers be able to put together a "good enough" product to cut us out of the loop?I thinks it's more the opposite. Frame grabs produce very usable images. The photo editor just runs through the video and picks out the peak moment. Probably need a new name for the guy sent out to bring back images.

I expect the next one series to include a larger video feature set. It's very Canon-like for their first model of something new to have a modest feature set but have very high IQ. The first all Canon DSLR was the D30. It produced great 3mp cmos images, but otherwise the camera was pretty low end.

It seems we will also see a single cmos camcorder as an XL replacement. That will probably have all the expected video functionality plus improved ability to shoot stills.
It all about market segmentation. We'll need to see how Canon makes products for different end users with this newer tech. Canon absolutely has target markets for the 5D. Just read the literature. It's not at all surprising that they would not consider broadcast video in a $2600 DSLR.

If you're an XL user and but don't see what you do in the 5DII, you can be sure you will see a better fit in future products.

There's an odd split in the initial opinion on the 5DII. Cinematographers and photographers mostly say "cool!". Videographers see the 1000 missing pieces they would need to make the 5DII work for them. I don't see people setting down their XL H1 for a 5DII. For them it's more of a demo of the core imaging ability in future products.

I see exposure shifting in the demo videos. You'd think they would have some way to lock exposure wouldn't you? You'd also think if they HAD that ability that Canon would have used it in the official promo videos?

Hmmmmmmm.....

I'd like to shoot a low budget feature with this camera.... if it can be pulled off. This would have to be a better solution than a Sony EX1 with a Letus.

You could shoot a low budget film with this camera and indeed the Nikon D90, but I think it would be like running a thee leg marathon race. i.e. its fun to do for a short distance but anything longer will be a handicap.

From my short experience with the D90, I would not be tempted to use the movie feature for anything other than my children on the beach, which I suppose was the intention for this feature. The Canon may (probably) be better, but to expect in focus High Definition quality footage could be a tall order.

A live view coming out of the HDMI port would help a lot... guess we'll see.

I see that as a Blu-ray problem... which in my opinion the Blu-ray consortium really needs to fix.

No problem. BluRay will have a short life, mostly because the difference between DVD and BluRay is not obvious all of the time. Early authors have been eliminated by the expense of BD-Rs, expense of burners, and lack of BD-R support of every non-PS3 BluRay player. The slow release rate of BluRay movies reflects the rental and purchase market -> small. More than half of the BluRay library is slow-selling transfers from films, and they are barely high definition to my eyes.

it appears that this camera shoots 1080i not 1080p.... bummer.

Canon 5D MKII Pre-Preview Report (http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/cameras/5dmkiipre.shtml)

Michael does know the difference as he owns a sony ex1 and has many years of video experience. I'm hoping he has made an error.... but I doubt it.

good news is that he did not notice any rolling shutter....

I'm hoping he has made an error...He has made at least one error:

"Nikon with their D90... shoots 720 30P, in others words 1280 X720 progressive at 30 FPS."

As we all know, the Nikon D90 shoots 24p, not 30p.

-"Meanwhile Canon shoots video in the 5DMKII using 1080i HD standard at 30 FPS. This is the top 1920 X 1080 resolution, roughly twice the resolution of 720P"

Well I would disagree with this statement from his article.

1080p would be the top 1920x1080 resolution.

-"You can set the ISO beforehand but not the exposure, other than via a plus / minus exposure compensation adjustment available via the rear wheel control. There also doesn't appear to be any way to control exposure in video mode (other than the aperture (+ / -) wheel), because exposure control appears to be allocated to stills mode."

This sounds like the video mode will be as one would expect from a still camera, not a like video camera.

Looks like it was too good to be true. :(

I don't see much use for auto exposure in the kind of work video folks do.

But I will still hope until after the full reviews come out...

well, I've searched the web and the only mention of I or P is micheal... Even canon leaves out whether it's I or P.

Well Michael has captured the footage into fcp and converted to aic - sounds like he might be right.

When this brief review was first written in early September I was under the impression that the 5D MKII shot 1080i video. Since I left for a shoot in Africa just a day or so later it was not until I returned on Sept 22 that I discovered that in fact it shoots 1080P. All the better.

I apologize to those that read this during the first few hours that it was online for the incorrect information.

Article has been fixed.

Framerate still sucks for me.

I don't see much use for auto exposure in the kind of work video folks do.


Many have written that you can lock the exposure after setting it, but you don't have specific control over the settings. With lenses that have an aperture ring, you can manually lock the aperture, but then how is shutter speed controlled? These video modes will improve in the future.

"Article has been fixed."

praise cheeses!

Do you guys not read? in my previous post it states that if you use a Nikon lens on an adapter to EOS you can get manual aperture control after exposure lock, isn't that what we all wanted? Also most 35mm adapter guys already use Nikon glass anyways. Even better with the EOS mount you can also use Leica, Contax, Pentax and other glass with adapters too.

I haven't found it, but I know there is a thread about having to pay all sorts of fees if you are shooting professional video in the U.S. National Parks, but NOT if you are shooting stills.

<snicker>

How are the N.P. law enforcement zealots going to enforce that nonsense with a camera like this?

<snicker>