Canon Digital Learning Center - Sample Video: EOS 5D Mark II (http://www.usa.canon.com/dlc/controller?act=GetArticleAct&articleID=2086)

this looks amazing, the lack of noise etc.


Are cineform planning any special support for this?

What special support do you have in mind? The CineForm codec provides market-leading results even with the clearest video you could possibly feed it.

We can convert it compressed output using HDLink, and I'm sure we can capture directly from the HDMI feed, so yes we support it.

As I mentioned in another post. I took 2 videos that were aviable in Full mov HD (Bird and the HWY) and used HD Link with 24P -> 23.976 conversion to get this real 29.97 instead of 30. It was a lot faster than real time

So I assume the procedure once you have a camera is like this.

1) Shoot with the camera
2) Copy mov files from Compact Flash to you HDD
3) Use HDLink like I did to convert them
4) Go to Cineform (I have Aspect so i had to use 1440x1080x30p) and edit natively

I am sure if you have Prospect you can do real 1920x1080x30p but I have to say, even in my Aspect the quality was amazing. Usualy Blue color should give you noise or some compression or chroma artifacts, and absolutely NOTHING, perfect. Or maybe my TV can't see the problem (Sharp 45 1080p) :)

I use the latest NeoHD and your workflow doesn't work here. I have "registered the components" btw (including the mp4 .ax splitter). CoreAVC Pro, Haali, AC3, Sony Vegas, and Quicktime are installed (32bit versions).

As "admin" on my Vista 64bit (brand new, clean PC):
When I try to convert MOV or MP4, I get a Cineform crash (I sent David Newman the output log).
As "eugenia" on my Vista64 bit (non-admin account):
When I try to convert the MOV, I get "format not supported" instead.

When I re-wrap the MOV to MP4 (without re-encoding, I do this in order to force CoreAVC to feed HDLink instead of Quicktime), and run it as "eugenia": same crash as above on my admin account. Workaround is to rename the .mp4 to .mp4X (thanks David).

So the bug is two folded here:
1. Registering components as admin doesn't make Cineform universally accessible to all users (e.g. my "eugenia" account still gets "format not supported" for MOV, while the "Admin" doesn't).
2. Even when running as "admin" (in order to go around #1 problem) it exhibits a crashing bug when MOV/MP4 are used on Vista 64bit.

To add to the injury, after using the .mp4x workaround, and the video re-encodes to AVI Cineform fine, I realize that CoreAVC's decoder (that feeds HDLink) has a bug! The created 1920x1080 Cineform file has a black line under the video! It seems that CoreAVC doesn't support the 5D files 100%. MainConcept's h.264 decoder (through Vegas) has the same bug too. Quicktime and VLC's decoders don't.

So basically, in order to use the new 5D files with Cineform properly on my Vista 64bit, 3 bugs need to be fixed, two of them by Cineform and one by CoreAVC. And if I want to use the MP4 files directly on Vegas (without transcoding to Cineform first), MainConcept needs to fix their bug too (MOV works fine, because Quicktime feeds it to Vegas instead of MainConcept).

At this point FinalCutPro seems like a better deal regarding these 5D h.264 files (they don't have the black lines or user accounts problem, and they transcode to ProRes anyway during import for faster editing). Hopefully, the bugs will be fixed on the PC side soon.

Just out of curiosity, not that this will fix anyone's workflow, but I swear a week or so back I dropped a few of these 5d files into a vegas timeline and rendered out to Cineform 720p30 no problem (no HD Link, used the original mov wrapper, can't remember if the audio was OK, but I think so). Anyway, if that's true, and since it's 30p footage anyway (no conversions needed by HD Link), this might point to a temporary workaround until things get fixed?

Can we use (free) MPEG Streamclip in place of HD Link ?

I see that it allows batch processing (multiple files) and conversion to Cineform (I have Neo HD installed).
And it allows you to adjust the output quality (bitrate) -- if I select 70% quality, the output file (AVI) is the same size as the converted AVI file with HD Link with "High" qualtity setting.

Can we use (free) MPEG Streamclip in place of HD Link ?

I see that it allows batch processing (multiple files) and conversion to Cineform (I have Neo HD installed).
And it allows you to adjust the output quality (bitrate) -- if I select 70% quality, the output file (AVI) is the same size as the converted AVI file with HD Link with "High" qualtity setting.

Bernard, the short answer is YES. But the longer answer is that MPEG Streamclip is likely using the CineForm Video for Windows encoder instead of DirectShow. The only downside of this is the resulting CineForm files are 8 bits in depth instead of 10 bits because of a VfW limitation in Windows.

I am getting Prospect to work, but I have to check the box to resize the video to 1920x1080, otherwise it says "Your are attempting to encode an image size for which this system is not licensed"

Has anyone else had this?

I am getting Prospect to work, but I have to check the box to resize the video to 1920x1080, otherwise it says "Your are attempting to encode an image size for which this system is not licensed"

Has anyone else had this?

Some AVC decoders output the image as 1920x1088 not 1080. This is likely the cause of your issue.

The Cineform converted clips look great and I have not noticed the loss of color space with crushing blacks and clipping whites that has been reported with using the Apple Prores intermediate.

Can this be avoided as long as I convert to avi files rather than .mov files?

The Cineform converted clips look great and I have not noticed the loss of color space with crushing blacks and clipping whites that has been reported with using the Apple Prores intermediate.

Can this be avoided as long as I convert to avi files rather than .mov files?

If you use HDlink for the conversion to CineForm the full dynamic range of the Canon 5D source is preserved whether you output as AVI or MOV.

I know I saw mention of this somewhere but can't now find where.

Anyway, downloaded NeoHD trial for two purposes:

(1) to see if it would circumvent the 16-235 vs 0-255 color space issue with 5D Mk II files
(2) to test editing and playback performance in Vegas Pro 8(c).

Things look promising on both fronts, but the CF avi files that result from HD Link transcodes of the mov originals are upside down and reversed right to left. In other words, checking the 180 degree flip option in the media properties dialog in Vegas still results in a right side up but mirror image of the original.

Is a fix for this forthcoming?

I initially had the same issue.

Try downloading the Haali media splitter

Haali Media Splitter (http://haali.cs.msu.ru/mkv/)

OK, I'm a plain speaking sort of guy and I just don't get off on technical gobbledegook.
Just thought I'd let you know before I continue!

I've just bought the Canon SX1 IS (stills camera...well sort of) here in Australia, and I've been very surprised (astounded?) at the full HD capability in movie mode. The only reason I bought it was that it is very handy on my location scout jobs as many Directors also want video footage as well as panoramic stills, so this camera just saves me having to stuff around changing cameras.

Now I have actually seen the video footage I am seriously wondering whether we could use this camera to shoot at least sections of some our music videos, especially using the long canon lens capability (560mm equiv.). In a nutshell my problem is this: Australia is PAL 25 fps and this shoots full HD but 30 fps compressed in H264. The result is jumpy footage. Does Cineform have a product that will allow me to convert this footage to smooth PAL 25 fps so I can edit as normal in Final Cut Pro. I have a macpro 9gb 3 khz 8 core and am using class 6 SDHC 16gb cards in the camera. Thanks guys.

Chris, unfortunately converting frame rates from 30 fps to 25 fps is about the hardest conversion you can do. CineForm software doesn't offer this in one step.

If you really want to experiment with this however, you can do two steps: 1) Use CineForm's Neo HD to convert from 30 fps to 24fps. 2) Use the Speed Change parameter to convert from 24fps to 25fps.

Can one of the Davids from Cineform weigh in on my earlier question? NeoHD demo is converting all my Canon 5D Mk II clips upside down and mirrored. I can overcome the upside down part easily enough by flicking a switch on the media properites tab in Vegas, but the image is still reversed left to right. I would obviously prefer the footage to be rendered correctly.

This is only a problem when converting files from HD link. Renders from the Vegas timeline maintain the proper orientation (although I haven't yet found the right combination of options to overcome the crushed blacks and whites when rendering out of Vegas as opposed to HD Link.) I'm on Windows XP Pro SP 2, Vegas Pro 8(c).

Also, I've long thought I would purchase a Cineform product as I am a RED customer (actually a future RED customer since I decided to wait on Scarlet rather than complete my RED One purchase last October.) If I plan to edit in Vegas and never plan to edit or finish above HD resolution with RED footage, is there any reason to go beyond NeoHD in your product line?

The flip image is a fault of another component in your system, it is not HDLink as it only converts the data is it is received by your systems decoders, a few posts ago a user even suggested the fix for you (read back on this thread.)

You could start with NEO HD and upgrade to NEO 4K for your Red workflow as needed, as the 4K product lines handles more than just extra resolution. NEO and Prospect 4K add RAW, 4:4:4 and 4:4:4:4 support, whereas the HD line is YUV 4:2:2 only.

Hi David. Thanks for the reply.

I was not ignoring the other gentleman's suggestion. It's just that after visiting that page, I don't see how it would help me, and I have a negative visceral reaction to installing MORE software on my system to combat a problem without fully understanding why it's necessary to do so.

If some codec in my system is reversing data, why don't I see the effects of that in any other media player or media-handling software on my system? When I load native Canon files into Vegas or play them in Quicktime or load them in Boris RED, the files are played in proper orientation. When I render from Vegas timeline to Cineform, the resultant files are correct. The only time I've ever seen this problem in over two years is with these Canon files converted via HD Link.

Just for comparison, I'm going to render some files via HD Link that originated from another source and see what happens. Will report back later.

I happen to know the user's advice is correct, there are smart users on this forum, you should give a try for making other experiments. The information you don't have is the fault is with a DirectShow demux on your system, Vegas, Boris, etc., aren't using DirectShow therefore aren't showing the issue. One the reasons HDLink is so fast and preserves the full dynamic range is the way it uses DirectShow, instead of Video for Windows or QuickTime media layers, which can truncate dynamic range, mangle color space or gamma. HDLink is handling the data correctly, your current installed DirectShow MOV demux/decoder pairing is sending the image data upsidedown. In the next major release v4 of all our HD/4K products we make Canon 5D support more explicit, currently it just happens to work with a Haali Media Splitter with comes with the CoreAVC which we recommend for 5D and other AVC compressed sources.

Update:

I visited the link that David Moody kindly provided in post 14. I clicked on the "Matroska Splitter" link in the upper right of the page, since I saw no download link for a "Haali Splitter".

After installation, I tried converting a Canon file again from HD Link, and again I got the upside down, mirrored image result.

Earlier, I did use HD Link to convert an SD DV clip shot on a Sony DSR-300 to a 1920 x 1080P Cineform avi. This worked fine. I also tried rendering a 1920 x 1080 motion graphics composition out of Boris RED using the Cineform codec and got a very strange result. The file had the right resolution but everything in it appeared to have been violently stretched in the vertical direction (the comp was basically just a caustics filter for a texture background).

Any ideas? FYI, I didn't remove any file associated with the (complimentary but outdated) Cineform codec included with Vegas Pro 8 before installing NeoHD. I forgot but wouldn't have known how to do it anyway.

We have tested the CoreAVC and Haali combination to work well, if you want to use different components you may not get the same resuts. The other thing could try is registering the mp4splitter.ax located within C:\program files\CineForm\NEO HD\. Use regsvr32.exe. There is a component on your PC doing this flip, and you will either have to work out what it is, or wait for NEO HD which will do its best to ignore whatever extra you have installed. When support returns on Monday, their starting point will be to have you install CoreAVC and then maybe register mp4splitter.ax. So give that a try.

Chris, unfortunately converting frame rates from 30 fps to 25 fps is about the hardest conversion you can do. CineForm software doesn't offer this in one step.

If you really want to experiment with this however, you can do two steps: 1) Use CineForm's Neo HD to convert from 30 fps to 24fps. 2) Use the Speed Change parameter to convert from 24fps to 25fps.

David,

I'm sure glad that Neo HD has a trial period because about now I would be pretty upset if I had paid for it (are you from Cineform?). I downloaded it, then tried to run Remaster. I tried to drag the file into the main window but it didn't like that. I then selected 'file'-'open' and it didn't like that either. It finally recognised the MOV file from my Canon SX1 IS, after me randomly trying a combination of buttons I now don't remember, but there the story ends. The file was in the window but there was nil functionality in 'parameters'.
I know you say that 'output' is the only function available at the moment but that wasn't there either. It was not even clear to me on downloading the mac version as to whether this came with the upgraded functions I needed anyway i.e. convert 30 -24fps and speedchange.

Thanks for your suggestion, but it looks like I need to look elsewhere.

We have tested the CoreAVC and Haali combination to work well,

Not really knowing what MP4Splitter was, I put the term into Google and the first hit showed this web site:

Free-Codecs.com :: Download MP4 Splitter 1.0.0.4 : MP4 Splitter helps to read MP4 files (http://www.free-codecs.com/download/MP4_Splitter.htm)

That web site says:

"Important Note :

- Gabest MP4 Splitter can't be used with the Haali Media Splitter installed So it's not advisable to have both files installed on your system in the same time."

As an experiment, I uninstalled the Haali Media Splitter (which is installed with CoreAVC). Now batch conversions using HD Link no longer complete. The last two files are never converted as conversion hangs on the second-to-last file with zero bytes being output. Weird.

Julian

David,

I downloaded it, then tried to run Remaster.

Chris, sorry, the features are a slight bit different between Neo HD on Windows and Mac. The rest of the thread was a Windows discussion, and I incorrectly assumed you were on Windows.

Neo HD on Mac does not include all the frame rate change features (yet) that are included on Windows. My comments were valid for Windows but not for Mac.

Chris, the discussions have been around the PC version of NEO HD, the Mac verison has a slightly different feature set, and it sounds like we don't yet support you camera (which may required additional codecs.) So you send sample files to support, and/or wait for the next release (couple of weeks) that will have new features on the Mac.

Chris, the discussions have been around the PC version of NEO HD, the Mac verison has a slightly different feature set, and it sounds like we don't yet support you camera (which may required additional codecs.) So you send sample files to support, and/or wait for the next release (couple of weeks) that will have new features on the Mac.

Thanks to the two David's for your reply. I get the feeling that you are aware that Cineform's products are, of course, important to high-end Editors, but equally important to the potentially much larger market of people like me, who will still buy the product but will only use it intermittently. Not having the constant day to day Editing experience will naturally also leave us behind in the overall knowledge stakes, in other words there's lots of stuff we just don't need to know.

While there are many Mac users who enjoy technical challenges, I would suggest there are
a lot more like me. I like to make toast in the morning, but I'm not that interested in how the toaster works. This is my long-winded way of asking if Neo HD for Mac's design could have a more mac/intuitive approach. Drag and drop as well? Maybe you've already done that!

Anyway, the 2 weeks is fine with me as I'm off on Summer holiday, thanks for the offer of sending files off to support, we'll see if it's necessary. Will I need to re-set my trial version?

Just to refresh reader's memories my questions have centered around converting files from the new Canon SX1 IS compact camera. As I live in Australia, a PAL country, I would like to convert the full HD H264 30fps video files to 25fps for final cut editing. What confuses me is why do they have it switchable NTSC/PAL but it still records in 30 fps, is that then really PAL anyway?

So thanks for taking the time on what's actually a bit peripheral for this discussion , but I know now I can't go wrong with a company who's CEO takes a direct interest in the consumer's issues!

I must not be doing something right...I was getting the upside down image and then I installed Haali media splitter and now I get no image at all. I uninstalled Haali media splitter and now it is back to being upside down