So, what are the current options we have for editing this kind of footage in real time ?
I'm looking into obviously spending as little as possible as I'm not making any money on my footage.

Plug in:
The two plug ins that I know work: (prem pro CS3 not CS4 yet)
Cineform Prospect (over priced considering F.HD is available to consumer cams)
Mainconcept MPEG Pro HD

Only problem with Cineform is that you do need to convert your footage, which is very easy but takes time.

Hardware ?

If by "real time" you mean full previewing of all effects as they are applied, then AVCHD is not the format to chose. Even with the extremely high performance processors being sold such as the quadcores from Intel, AVCHD editing is challenging.

As you indicated in your question, conversion to another format does then allow for editing, and, in fact, some AVCHD editing programs do exactly that by creating "Proxy" files internally just as Cineform does. These proxy files are, depending on the program, created in the background, and give the appearance of "real time" editing, albeit on lower resolution screen images.

There are several programs which are very inexpensive (approx $100 or less) which perform in this manner. There are also several more elaborate programs which offer more powerful editing, have some preview capabilities, and may be worth considering as well.

Could you elaborate on what your expectations are, and also mention what your eventual finished output is going to be, such as AVCHD disks, BluRay disks, web movies, or whatever?

Larry

Most people who use Edius convert to Canopus HQ on capture. THere is a utility to convert AVCHD to Canopus HQ included with the various editions of Edius that I use which will convert in much less that realtime to HQ. Total time to transfer to PC and convert is just over realtime. Once in the HQ format all editing is realtime. I believe Edius NEo is not expensive and if you then like it the move to the full version will add things like multicam editing etc. What ever you do you will need the most powerful computer you can afford!!!!

Ron Evans

Hi guys,

I clicked 'post' and realised I could have put some more info up, and the site was too slow for me yesterday.

Anyway:

Just for real-time cutting and playback. Thats the most important aspect for me, as I can show others the edit first, then concern myself with effects and tweaks later on.

I've just acquired a Canon HF11, and previously I used the HV20 so I was using HDV before (in very UNrealtime as well). I then realised something like one of the above plug ins I mentioned made real time editing a possibility, then I broke my HV20 and eventually picked up the HF11.

I was looking at using Proxy editing with Premiere Pro, but it still looks like nearly any file I bring in as the 'proxy' has a red render line above it, and I need to see my footage in real-time (timing is crucial).
Finally my output: Web HD content + Blue Ray (also sometimes I'll put the files back into the camera so I can connect to a viewers TV)

So I'm considering:
Hardware upgrade
Plug in
New editor (pc only)

Price is a concern but the options seem to be roughly the same price, which is why I posted the question. I would say time is more important to me at this stage as I need to do things very very quickly from now.

Hi Rob,
High speed AVCHD editing and authoring is my passion, and I have purchased virtually all of the current programs on the market to do so. Some of the other threads on this forum already discuss some of the alternatives and choices I personally have compared, and there are many other excellent opinions here from others as well.

I would quickly summarize my position to strong urge you to get a very fast quadcore processor regardless of whatever software you chose, minimally a 2.4 or 2.6 GHz speed, and preferably a 3.0 or higher. The good news for you is that the recently introduced Nehalem processor family from Intel has driven down very drastically the prices for superb Intel Penryn chips which (as I personally discovered) cost well over $1000 6 months ago. They have dropped nearly in half. You should also get a CUDA equipped video card from nVidia in my opinion since several excellet programs, in particular Cyberlink PowerDirector 7 Ultra as well as Pegasys TMPGE Express 4 use the CUDA graphics processor to further speed up AVCHD video editing. The combination is outstanding based on my experience, and comes at very little cost since the nVida 8800GT video card is now only $150 or so, down 50% from 6 months ago also.

Most important, I would encourage you to download and try Cyberlink PowerDirector7 Ultra,
Corel VideoStudio X2Pro, Adobe Premiere Elements, and ArcSoft Total Media Extreme trial versions at no charge, and compare their speed and functions once you have adequate hardware to host them. You can then decide for yourself which one works well for you.

If writing back to the camera is a requirement, this will further limit your choices, and this should be discussed further.

Larry

Hi Larry,

Many thanks for the information!!!

I shall certainly trial out the other software you have mentioned.
I'm currently running Premiere Pro CS3, and decided not to bother updating to CS4 (have the demo disk) as some plug ins I use don't work with it (well done Adobe).

Bit of a sore point at the moment but..
As for hardware, well funnily enough I was meant to have a Quad Core computer around 6 weeks ago... seller hasn't delivered or payed me back.
Yes seller is getting a visit in person.

Rob,

I hope your visit is succesful.

If writing back to the camera is an essential feature, the only program I know of which indirectly supports this feature is Nero Ultimate version 8 or 9. It has a limited feature editing capability, but is very fast and reliable.

I would forget Adobe entirely. You might also consider Sony Vegas which is offered in home and pro versions. While slower and lacking AVCHD output to the camera, it is a reliable program and is especially well endowed with features in the Pro version, which is around $300. They also offer trial versions.

Seems like your next steps will be to get the hardware and then download some trial software.

Since the HF11 is so new, and the bitrate is higher than any of the available AVCHD camcorders previously released, you should be particularly concerned about compatibility and performance. The earlier HF10 / HF100 is not nearly as stressing due to its lower bitrate.

Hope this offers some assistance.

Larry

I believe AVID also offers a solution for edit.

To be more specific I believe it's the Pinacle Studio product line.

I know that Media Composer is meant to be pretty good but I'm not sure that its actually 'real-time' unless you have their hardware.
I'm told a demo is available, perhaps on CD only not sure as I'll try the others first.

Once again, Larry appreciate the input, certainly helps in this brave new era !

I shall report my findings here, and let you guys know which system I roll with :)

Hi Chris,

It is indeed true that Pinnacle also has an AVCHD product, Pinnacle Studio 12 Ultimate, which does handle AVCHD.

I have just concluded a lengthy thread on the Pinnacle forum asking for help with this product since the recent release literally freezes and crashes all over the place on my system as well as fails to do other things so simple as open AVCHD files. I own and have used this product, but I consider it to be "a train wreck" in the 12.1 version, but considerably better in the pior release. It is, however, very slow in rendering and produces very mediocre quality compared to the other products.

You can see my thread if you wish at:

Pinnacle Systems - Forums - 12.1 - A Remarkably Poor Update (http://forums.pinnaclesys.com/forums/thread/256048.aspx)

For the reasons in the thread, I really don't recommend it to others until Pinnacle fixes it properly. In all fairness, some other users have not had the problems I have had, but it is unclear whether the issues come from running Vista, a quadcore, other editing software, or some other incompatibilities.

Larry

Glad to help Rob.

Not aware that Media Composer actually supports AVCHD format. I don't believe it does but certainly worth checking.

Please do keep us informed regarding your progress, and good luck with the next steps you are taking.

Larry

Sorry, just a very quick question for you.

If you had a clean install of say, XP Pro, and you installed all of the above mentioned editors, would you need to install anything like FFDshow/CoreAVC ect ect?
I have installed all of the demo's now, but I just want to make sure I have all of the other things installed, and set correctly before testing.
:)

No other software is required Rob. Each trial version should contain the codecs, filters, etc. Nero does require optional an HD add-in to handle AVCHD as I recall. Corel/Ulead, Cyberlink, ArcSoft, and Sony trials are AVCHD - ready.

Good luck!

Larry

Sony Vegas pro 8 supports AVCHD.
I've edited AVCHD before, no problems.

Paul.

Rob,

You might also consider Sony Vegas which is offered in home and pro versions. While slower and lacking AVCHD output to the camera, it is a reliable program and is especially well endowed with features in the Pro version, which is around $300. They also offer trial versions.


Larry

Paul,

This was one of my suggestions above, and is an excellent choice.

Larry

Don't forget, Vegas will only edit AVCHD from a Sony Camera.

Erik,

Vegas edits my Canon HF100 AVCHD just fine.

I also have been using the very recent update of the companion Vegas suite program DVD Architect 5.0a from earlier this month. It makes extremely fine, very quickly authored, menued (FINALLY!!) AVCHD disks directly importing Canon AVCHD clips with no re-rendering.

Larry

This topic is a huge concern of mine also as I want to migrate towards this camera and I am a premiere fan and refuse to learn a new program just because there isn't a fantastic solution for editing avchd yet. I am constantly looking out for one though, and If I had to get all new equipment tomorrow, I'd probably choose the blackmagic intensity pro card that uses the hdmi inputs and records to the dvcpro hd format rather than going the fileconversion route.

Matt,

I have not used it, but have read that the latest CS4 from Adobe now (finally) handles AVCHD. Perhaps this may be a good option for you if you want to stay with Premiere.

Larry

I'm trying to find some reviews of which motherboard would be best married to:
'Intel Core 2 Quad Q9550, Yorkfield Core, S775, 2.83 GHz'

I think I'll be going for that one as it suits my budget, but just completely confused as I haven't followed the computer scene for about 2 years :(
---------
Ignore that, looks like I'm gonna have to roll with i7 cpu.
------------


I STILL haven't had a chance to test out these editors as I've been out shooting bits, or editing older projects first.

Rob,

I think it is very good news that you will be able to use the i7 Nehalem processor, as the prior (Penryn) family including the Q9550 you originally stated as well as the processor I use, the 9650, are considerably slower. In bechmarks I have been reading, for CPUs with the same clock speed, the Nehalem is up to 40% faster depending on which benchmark is used.

The new i7 chips with the fastest clock speeds are quite expensive but will be an outstanding chip for AVCHD work.

Are you building your own starting with motherboard, CPU, etc., or buying a read-to-use system?

Larry

I agree the i7 would be around minimum requirements for fluid AVCHD editing, but I would suggest to wait a couple of weeks/months until either BIOS updates are available or a new stepping of the CPU is available, since Intel admitted a SERIOUS TLB bug in the current stepping, that causes data corruption and or hangs. Bypassing the TLB by patching the BIOS seems the only solution for the time being, but it is unknown what performance hit that entails.

Rob,

I think it is very good news that you will be able to use the i7 Nehalem processor, as the prior (Penryn) family including the Q9550 you originally stated as well as the processor I use, the 9650, are considerably slower. In bechmarks I have been reading, for CPUs with the same clock speed, the Nehalem is up to 40% faster depending on which benchmark is used.

The new i7 chips with the fastest clock speeds are quite expensive but will be an outstanding chip for AVCHD work.

Are you building your own starting with motherboard, CPU, etc., or buying a read-to-use system?

Larry

As usual, I'll be constructing this myself.
I've pretty much got one in a shopping basket ready, but the price made me choke a bit :(
I'm going to purchase a Pantone Huey Pro, as I'm sick of all my monitors looking like crud !
And since I'll be getting a 24-30" monitor (as I dont have a proper TV at the moment), I want it to look correct.
I'll get the list up if you want but its likely to change if I can salvage a couple of parts from the old machine (graphics card/case/psu). But I'll update parts each month that require it once I'm in a new workplace.

Harm:
Appreciate the advice on that, as I don't know anything about these new CPU's currently.
Either way, the i7 is going to be performing a hell of a lot better than my 05 spec machine!

Rob,

Given Harm's comment and the cost saving for the ancient (11 month old) 9550 and 9650 chips, these older CPUs may actually be a better choice at the moment. The i7 will no doubt rule once the issue is resolved.

All of this is a hidden expense which many AVCHD camcorder buyers discover only after getting their cameras home and using them.

This Christmas ahould thus create a surge of new quadcore buyers in early 2009.....

Larry

I've been using MainConcept Mpeg Pro 3 on Premiere CS3 for quite awhile and it works great.

Hi all,

This falls into the FWIW category...

I use Vegas 8 and Corel VideoStudio 12 (aka VideoStudio Pro X3), and now Adobe CS4 for AVCHD, but I also sometimes use TMPGEnc Xpress 4.0 to convert the AVCHD to high quality HDV 1920x1080 9-bit HDV that edits nicely in any of the NLEs.

If there is a quality hit, I can't see it. Naturally, whether that route has any appeal depends on what wants to do. Taking AVCHD to Blu-ray without any processing or even to DVD for Blu-ray playback is enticing and possible and certainly something this technique would belay, but I wanted to throw it out there for anyone interested for a low-cost technique to get into real time editing via transcoding to another CODEC.

My best,

Mike

Thanks Mike, hadn't considered that.

Also I know we can do proxy editing, but I haven't given it a shot yet.

Hi Rob,

Depending upon the tools in the shed, Procoder will make also do excellent transcodes, but you will need to batch rename the files' extensions from "mts" to "m2ts". It isn't onerous with a free utility called Renamer from [den4b] - Denis Kozlov (http://www.den4b.com/downloads.php?project=ReNamer). Renamer works in a few seconds to rename the files' extensions quickly, and Procoder 3, if you already have the program, can make good quality files. TMPGEnc Xpress 4.0 makes terrific files and is a bargain at $100US. I use it for a lot of projects. It can remove pull down from Canon's 24F mode from HDV during this process, too, so it does double duty for me.

But then by 24P content is done on 24P timelines which is a lot tidier.

My best,

Mike

I'll welcome any more detail that anyone has found, but after reading Harm's comments I spent a little time searching the internet on the topic of i7 errata. Best I can tell, the TLB issue is an erratum that Intel was aware of as far back as 2007 and resolved by a BIOS tweak. Words I read indicated that all mobo manufacturers would have had the erratum information and would have released their boards with appropriate BIOS.

Assuming that is all correct and complete info (again, best I could derive from about an hour of searching and reading but that doesn't make it definitive), any i7 system would be fully functional and published benchmarks would be representative. In other words, I didn't find anything that indicates future BIOS updates that would reduce performance in an i7 system are needed -- it was all handled before the launch of the i7.

If that's NOT correct, please throw the links at us...I'm itching to build an i7!

ok...so I did some tests on the following

Vegas Timeline 1920x1080 - 23.976 progressive

I had three video tracks going.

Video track 1 had the MTS file straight from the camera (oh it was an HF10 shooting 24PF of course - it happened to be shooting cinema mode too but I'm more concerned with removing pulldown here than color) - so in this case vegas was attempting to do some kind of deinterlace on the fly.
(as we all know vegas is not able to detect/apply 3:2 pulldown to these MTS files)
This was my reference track - since I assumed it would look the worst.

Video track 2 was that same MTS file processed through TMPEnc 4.0 Xpress - I made very high bit rate MPEG2s.
Settings were as follows
Filters on clip - Deinterlace only (mode 24fps special animation, method: inverse pulldown)
Settings on output

MPEG-2 Transport (HDV HD2 mode)
MPEG-2 Video
MP@HL
1920x1080
1:1 pixels
23.976 frame rate
VBR - buffer size 224kB
DC component precision - 10 bit
Display mode - Progressive
Bitrate:
40000 kbit/s
Max - 60000 kbit/s
Min - 30000 kbit/s

Video track 3 - was the same MTS file processed through After Effects Professional CS4 - which correctly detected the pulldown - all I did with after effects was export an uncompressed AVI

My results were the following

Track 1 (predictably) - looked pretty bad - as far as progressive frames go at least
Track 2 looked ok (perhaps a little soft to the eye) but of course the system was massively more responsive (on a straight MTS files in vegas I can get 29.97 playback on single track files only Preview/Auto - as soon as I overlay more than one clip - my frame rate suffers - scrubbing is stuttery etc) - but on this track 2 alone I was happily scrubbing away etc etc
But when I looked at Track 3 I could see all the problems with the compression from track 2 - the images out of after effects looked excellent...

So my question to mike (or anyone else for that matter) is what the optimal settings are for TMPGEnc.

There are three reasons why converting via after effects is less than ideal

(well aside from actually having to own After Effects ;)

1. The files take up a huge amount of hard drive space
2. Uncompressed HD AVIs are a pain to work with in Vegas
3. You can't batch convert the files making any kind of long form workflow very very annoying

Even if After Effects was used just for removing the pulldown and I rendered to something other than uncompressed AVI to save space - it would still be annoying workflow.

(I am on a fairly old quad core setup - Q6600, Nvidia Geforce 8800 GT OC, XP 64, 4GB RAM - but it can happily motor along with 1920x1080 MPEG2's - although it does not like MTS files at all as I mentioned before. I have not tried Vegas 8.1 pro - which supposedly gives about 30% improvement in 64 bit)

FYI I did try Premiere Pro CS4 with those same MTS files - and the performance was junk...
and oddly there seemed no way to automatically remove the pulldown on the fly.

I apologise if this has all been covered in another thread but it didn't seem that way...

Nick