I've just posted a short test clip using a Nikon 85mm lens at f1.4 in broad daylight outside to show that shallow depth is possible in daylight, apologies for the wobbly nature of the picture. I used two polarizers mounted on the front to simulate a variable ND filter. Lens aperture was f1.4 and the exposure indicated on the camera was 1/60th at 100asa.

Canon 5DmkII with Nikon 85mm lens at f1.4 in broad daylight on Vimeo

I hope Chris can host a full HD version later, but that's up to him.

I'll ask Jennn to do it... thanks Dan,

Link: http://files.dvinfo.net/5dmkII/dchung_mvi0461_1080p.mov

Thanks Dan for the excellent clip and for Jenn for hosting the raw 1080p file.

Does anyone have (or can anyone propose) a good workflow to convert a raw 1080p/30-frame H.264 clip such as this to Apple ProRes at 24p with as little quality loss as possible?

Extra Credit: If anyone proposes using Nattress plugins, is it possible to post the above raw clip after conversion with those plugins so we can see what the results actually are?

I'm almost sold on this camera but I've got to be able to get to 24p.

And blast you Canon for leaving 24p off the feature list!

Thanks.

My plugins were never designed to do 30p to 24p. However, they do do 25p to 60i rather nicely... (not that it's much use here). I did work on a solution for getting very nice 24p, but it does cost $17,500...

Graeme

My plugins were never designed to do 30p to 24p. However, they do do 25p to 60i rather nicely... (not that it's much use here). I did work on a solution for getting very nice 24p, but it does cost $17,500...

Graeme

Yeah, I guess that'd be one heck of a conflict of interest at this point, eh? ;) I use the Nattress Filters, and in many cases they still look better than more expensive things like Magic Bullet Looks.

Like most here, however, coveteth though I may a Red One, that $17,500 nut remains too tough to crack right now.

By the way, tell Jim it's nearly 2009 and we're still sans all we ever asked Red for:

A 24p HD camera with an interchangeable lens system that we could buy for what this ludicrous 5D Mark II headache is going to cost.

At this point my assumption is that there is a law against providing such a device for sale to indie filmmakers.

Thanks Dan and Chris and Jenn.

Looked good to me, especially considering the back lighting. I would like to see what a higher sharpness setting looks like.

Do we have any aperture tricks yet, besides using non-Canon lenses?. I find lack of aperture control bizarre.

Just for a hoot, I attempted following:

I have Cineform NeoHDV, so I took the file, and attempted to convert it to Cineform using HDLink. It did not kill HDLink, but I never got a file out of it.

I then opened Vegas, put the clip on a time line, then rendered it to Cineform HDV 60I. I got a good file.

I then opened Cineform's HDLink, and attempted to convert the Cineform 60i to Cineforms 24p, using the pull down. HDLink crashed and I got that Vista message saying the program wasn't responding.

I then decided to rendered the original clip directly to the Cineform 24p intermedieate, and I got a 24p file from it. Looks pretty good.

Just for a hoot, I attempted following:

...

I then decided to rendered the original clip directly to the Cineform 24p intermedieate, and I got a 24p file from it. Looks pretty good.

Ladies and gentleman we have a 24p PC workflow. Thank you Chris!

Mac solution anyone?

Link: http://files.dvinfo.net/5dmkII/dchung_mvi0461_1080p.mov

Hi Dan and Jeff - can you confirm this is the actual 1080p H.264 file generated in-camera on the 5D Mark II? Just want to be sure.

Not so much a conflict of interest, but that I've never seen a decent 30p to 25p or 24p conversion. I'm sure it can be done, but I've never seen it. 30 and 24/25 are so close to each other, that it leaves very little room to work the temporal interpolation / filtering / decimation. You can be sure though, if I knew a good way to do it, I'd be selling plugins to do it as fast as I can!

Graeme

Unless Dan indicates otherwise, it's straight off the CF card. The original filename was MVI_0461.mov before I renamed it for upload. It's 39.07 megabit, 30fps, h264, 1920x1080, 44.1k audio. There aren't any re-compression artifacts, it looks great to me.

Not so much a conflict of interest, but that I've never seen a decent 30p to 25p or 24p conversion. I'm sure it can be done, but I've never seen it. 30 and 24/25 are so close to each other, that it leaves very little room to work the temporal interpolation / filtering / decimation. You can be sure though, if I knew a good way to do it, I'd be selling plugins to do it as fast as I can!

Graeme

Yes. There is talk of slowing the 30p footage down to 24p (easy as pie in something like Cinema Tools or event QuickTime Pro(?)) and then time-stretching and pitch-shifting the audio up to the correct pitch to end up with a weird hybrid that is now 24p yet sounds like the original performance.

So there is an audio filter opportunity for you but yeah, I expect the effect will surely be somewhat strange.

I make slow movies in any case, so I'm going to try this just to see what the effect is like.

Unless Dan indicates otherwise, it's straight off the CF card. The original filename was MVI_0461.mov before I renamed it for upload. It's 39.07 megabit, 30fps, h264, 1920x1080, 44.1k audio. There aren't any re-compression artifacts, it looks great to me.

Thanks for the info. Agreed it looks spectacular. Now I really wish there /was/ audio so I could try the "slow to 24p and them time/pitch-shift the audio" trick and see what the result is like.

Ladies and gentleman we have a 24p PC workflow. Thank you Chris!

Mac solution anyone?

If anyone wants to host it to analyze it, it is a 200 meg .avi file with Cineform codec. I can upload it somewhere. I'm not technically astute enough to determine it things are right about it. Let me know.

I assume this camera does not have an actual 24p setting, so something like DV Filmmaker will have to be used ??? I have taken 60i stuff from my FX1, and rendered to 24p in Cineform. You do lose some resolution, but end up with a 24p file to edit with. From what I can see of the file I just did, some frames are essentially blended as I step through frame by frame.

If anyone wants to host it to analyze it, it is a 200 meg .avi file with Cineform codec. I can upload it somewhere. I'm not technically astute enough to determine it things are right about it. Let me know.

I assume this camera does not have an actual 24p setting, so something like DV Filmmaker will have to be used ??? I have taken 60i stuff from my FX1, and rendered to 24p in Cineform. You do lose some resolution, but end up with a 24p file to edit with. From what I can see of the file I just did, some frames are essentially blended as I step through frame by frame.

Yes, if every fourth frame were a blended frame one could discard a total of six discrete frames. I guess the "blend" quality/algorithm is key.

I have been playing with the "slowdown" workflow and I'm pretty excited about this, actually. Workflow (on Mac OS X) goes like this:

- Copy raw captures from 5D Mark II CF card to desktop.
- Open in QuickTime Pro.
- Export as Apple Pro Res 422 (HQ), 1920x1080, stereo 44.1khz (this is a very fast export)
- Open in Cinema Tools and conform to 24p (instantaneous)
- Open in Final Cut, create new project, drag clip into browser allowing sequence settings to conform to clip.
- Add clip to Timeline and double-click to open in Viewer
- Add Effects>Audio Filters->Apple->AUPitch
- In Viewer edit the AUPitch settings Pitch->300 (cents, I believe, meaning 25 percent pitch correction)

Hopefully Dan can post a raw clip from the CF card with audio soon so can A/B the result.

And yes, I realize that many people will scream "unacceptable!" about this solution, but it has some real advantages and uses for everyone. Certainly one could at least minimize the number of clips needing a full 24p render/conversion by strategically using this technique (for establishing shots etc).

I do not know the equivalent workflow on the PC to achieve this.

You can also do the opposite... Speed up the 30p file to 48fps and then get rid of every second frame. The result is 24p slightly faster than realtime. Works for some action shots ;)

Here are frame grabs I did of of two time lines:

"Original" are done at frame 0:16, 1:00, and 2:00 from Chung's original file on a Vegas 60i.

Cineform grabs are from frames 0:12, 1.00 and 2.00 on a Vegas 24p timeline. (Note: I had to take into Photoshop to deinterlace the originals and size the files for upload.

Yes, if every fourth frame were a blended frame one could discard a total of six discrete frames. I guess the "blend" quality/algorithm is key.

I have been playing with the "slowdown" workflow and I'm pretty excited about this, actually. Workflow (on Mac OS X) goes like this:

- Copy raw captures from 5D Mark II CF card to desktop.
- Open in QuickTime Pro.
- Export as Apple Pro Res 422 (HQ), 1920x1080, stereo 44.1khz (this is a very fast export)
- Open in Cinema Tools and conform to 24p (instantaneous)
- Open in Final Cut, create new project, drag clip into browser allowing sequence settings to conform to clip.
- Add clip to Timeline and double-click to open in Viewer
- Add Effects>Audio Filters->Apple->AUPitch
- In Viewer edit the AUPitch settings Pitch->300 (cents, I believe, meaning 25 percent pitch correction)

Hopefully Dan can post a raw clip from the CF card with audio soon so can A/B the result.

And yes, I realize that many people will scream "unacceptable!" about this solution, but it has some real advantages and uses for everyone. Certainly one could at least minimize the number of clips needing a full 24p render/conversion by strategically using this technique (for establishing shots etc).

I do not know the equivalent workflow on the PC to achieve this.

This method sounds interesting. I'm going to try it out. However, would there be any complications at all if you are recording audio to a separate device all together? Sync issues? Drifting issues? This gives you a straight 24p movie, right (not 23.98)? What happens when you convert to mpeg2 for DVD? Does your audio drift at that point?

Aside from frame rate, the biggest issue with all the 5d mkii footage so far seems to be crushed blacks / shadow areas. It's in all the night footage, and very clear in this day footage from Dan.

I tried CCing this footage and while there is a little more detail hidden away in the worker's jackets and pants, it is disappointing how condensed the lows appear to be (this in well exposed daylight footage, with blue clothing).

To Dan or anyone else who has had time with the camera, it would be great to know if there is any way to set-up a custom profile / setting to stretch the lows? If not, it's going to be very tricky to light / capture acceptable dynamic range with the this camera.

The manual says movie mode supports canon picture styles.
It would be a piece of cake to stretch the blacks and do whatever other tweaks.
I've only played with it a little because it really seems designed for JPG shooters to get the image they want straight out of the camera without the RAW workflow.
I think once this camera hits the masses we'll see plenty of custom presets like what are available for the XH/XL series camcorders in those threads.
They (canon) have recently updated Picture style editor to version 1.4.
Here's where to get it.
Canon Downloads (http://www.usa.canon.com/consumer/controller?act=ModelInfoAct&fcategoryid=139&modelid=17662#DownloadDetailAct)

Aside from frame rate, the biggest issue with all the 5d mkii footage so far seems to be crushed blacks / shadow areas. It's in all the night footage, and very clear in this day footage from Dan.

I tried CCing this footage and while there is a little more detail hidden away in the worker's jackets and pants, it is disappointing how condensed the lows appear to be (this in well exposed daylight footage, with blue clothing).

To Dan or anyone else who has had time with the camera, it would be great to know if there is any way to set-up a custom profile / setting to stretch the lows? If not, it's going to be very tricky to light / capture acceptable dynamic range with the this camera.

I noticed the blocked up areas that immediately too. But look where the light is coming from. I would say there is pretty good dynamic range. There's a choice of showing the shirts or blowing out the highlights in the background.

I would expected crushed blacks to control noise at high ISO. I also expect there will be firmware releases in the next year that will improve video image quality. (FWIW, I do not expect Canon to add 24p to this camera)

I also expect there will be firmware releases in the next year that will improve video image quality. (FWIW, I do not expect Canon to add 24p to this camera)

In the past, Canon almost never released any DSLR firmware updates that added significant features. Usually it's just translation updates and compatibility issues, with an occasional bug fix. Based on that, I have very low expectations for Canon to release any kind of improvement as a firmware upgrade. I'd sooner expect a 5D Mark IIn. That said, a small part of me is holding out hope that the customer response to this camera will prompt them to fix the most egregious errors in the 5Dm2, such as manual exposure control.

In the past, Canon almost never released any DSLR firmware updates that added significant features. Usually it's just translation updates and compatibility issues, with an occasional bug fix. Based on that, I have very low expectations for Canon to release any kind of improvement as a firmware upgrade. I'd sooner expect a 5D Mark IIn. That said, a small part of me is holding out hope that the customer response to this camera will prompt them to fix the most egregious errors in the 5Dm2, such as manual exposure control.

I really do think they will issue a firmware that fixes some of these issues. I don't think they can afford not to. I mean, Canon is now losing lens purchases to Nikon and Zeiss for their own cameras. That can't feel good. They've entered this video on DSLR rat race now. When Nikon announces their full frame DSLR shooting 1080p at 24fps with light sensitivity just as nice, they will have to take notice. They will lose their market and Canon doesn't like to lose their market.

Seriously, I'm buying Nikon mount lenses already... if Nikon announces something better, I've already got the lenses and $2700 isn't hard to recoup to switch camera manufactures.

If Nikon's announcement on the 1st is significant then I can see a lot of people canceling 5D2 pre-orders and making returns on EF lenses.

For now its sold out everywhere I have called. Waiting lists are between 20-60 people. Some stores are expecting to ship all the cameras by the second week of December. But I would not be surprised if some of us are waiting till January to get one.

I don't know that they'll implement 24p, but 25p might be another matter. Having only 30p can't help their brand image in Europe.

The Nikon announcement appears to be the D3x without video. Looking at the D90, it doesn't appear Nikon is ready to get into video in a big way. Go Red.

Rob Galbraith DPI: Nikon Pro magazine reveals full details of 24.5MP D3X camera (http://www.robgalbraith.com/bins/content_page.asp?cid=7-9318-9779)

The Nikon announcement appears to be the D3x without video. Looking at the D90, it doesn't appear Nikon is ready to get into video in a big way. Go Red.

Rob Galbraith DPI: Nikon Pro magazine reveals full details of 24.5MP D3X camera (http://www.robgalbraith.com/bins/content_page.asp?cid=7-9318-9779)

Well then, no pressure on Canon for 24p. However, they will continue to lose lens purchases to Nikon and Zeiss if they don't give folks manual control over aperture.

I'd be curious for someone who has a 5dm2 to try the Creative Auto Mode (CA) for videos. My camera should be here by the end of the week, but I'm wondering if that could be used as another possible workaround (albeit another crappy workaround). I ask because I think video can be shot in CA mode, and CA mode has a slider for DOF. I wonder if you shot something outside in daylight, and compared (under exact same conditions of course) the two extremes of that slider (more DOF vs. less DOF) vs. running in full auto (letting it do whatever it wanted), if there's any difference in the actual aperture used (e.g., the observed DOF is different). Anyone care to give that a go?

Well then, no pressure on Canon for 24p.

Hopefully there will be pressure for 25p though. Euro sales are not going well at all.

Hopefully there will be pressure for 25p though. Euro sales are not going well at all.Wow, the camera has barely been released and already Canon sales numbers are public? What sort of numbers are we talking here?

I don't want to derail the Canon discussion, but can someone point me in the direction of the official Nikon announcement? I was hoping for a pro model of the d90 with 1080p since we already have Nikon stuff here.

Wow, the camera has barely been released and already Canon sales numbers are public? What sort of numbers are we talking here?

I don't know anything official... but I had a good chat with a rep from pixmania, who are one of the top electronics retailers throughout europe.

He said that take up for the 5DII was not really happening at all... I asked why he thought that was and he said it is a mixture of 30fps video and the fact that, although it is a good upgrade for DSLR use, it is not an essential one and that quite a few Canon photographers were actually unhappy with the new model's specs. They didn't care for the megapixel upgrade and wanted faster fps and better AF (apparently).

There are no waiting lists and pre-orders are to be shipped straight away... so I assume what he is saying is fairly accurate.

A lot of that I find so obvious that it's no surprise to me. As a Canon shooter, it kind of pains me to says this, but if it weren't for the (somewhat crippled) video functionality in the new 5D, I personally think the D700 BLOWS AWAY the 5D because of things like full frame, amazing AF, better TTL, on board flash, speed, stunning high ISO, etc. Now if you want video, albeit somewhat crippled, or need the added pixels, or already own a lot of canon glass, then it might be worth it, which is my case. But, the D3/D700 from a purely photographic standpoint are looking awful attractive at this point. And not at least providing 25p for euroland is basically a giangantic FU to europe.

If it is true that the 5dII was the biggest pre-order DSLR ever in america.... you have to hope that canon are going to want the same to happen in europe.... that will only happen by adding 25fps. (the head guys at canon must have spotted that adding video equaled a huge spike in interest)

I can't imagine there are huge technological issues (maybe shutter speed is the problem?)

I have heard the arguement that they don't want to tread on the camcorder side of their business.... but with the 5dII coming in a £3000 (with lens) it is not far off the price of Canon's prosumer range, in fact the Canon XH-A1 is £600 cheaper.... I would expect a 25fps DSLR would shift a whole lot more units than their prosumer camcorders.

Here's hoping for 25fps, very soon (as long as I can flip back to 30fps when I want)

If it is true that the 5dII was the biggest pre-order DSLR ever in america....

Is this really true or just speculation around here? I waited until I saw Reverie to pre-order and just got shipping notification from Ritz today, so either there aren't that many pre-orders or they really ramped up production to meet the initial demand.

Demand is huge. You got lucky. The market isn't perfect. There are a few unsold units in dealers shelves (somewhere), but some people won't get their pre-orders until next year.

I don't know where the 'no sales in Europe' idea is coming from, my dealer of many years in London has reported massive backorders. The long queues are assured because there are so many original 5D users waiting for this camera as a replacement because they couldn't or wouldn't jump to Nikon. The video is only a secondary reason to buy this camera.

Maybe some European dealers are trying to talk down the 5DmkII order situation because they are not getting much stock of the 5DmkII allocated from Canon.

This is of course bad news for those of us trying to persuade Canon that they need to put 25p into the camera.

I don't know where the 'no sales in Europe' idea is coming from, my dealer of many years in London has reported massive backorders. The long queues are assured because there are so many original 5D users waiting for this camera as a replacement because they couldn't or wouldn't jump to Nikon. The video is only a secondary reason to buy this camera.

Maybe some European dealers are trying to talk down the 5DmkII order situation because they are not getting much stock of the 5DmkII allocated from Canon.

This is of course bad news for those of us trying to persuade Canon that they need to put 25p into the camera.

Don't worry, once all those folks realize what this all means, Canon will have plenty of pressure to fix it. Not sure about 24p, but they'll be hearing a lot about 25p for sure, lol.

like I said, the guy I was speaking to was a salesman for one electronics company... so you never know what lines they are feeding you or for what reason.

maybe the dedicated camera shops are selling well, but the "supermarket" type outlets like Amazon and Pixmania (and video outlets) are struggling more?

I have not heard of any pre-order backlogs though, from anyone ordering in Europe.

A lot of that I find so obvious that it's no surprise to me. As a Canon shooter, it kind of pains me to says this, but if it weren't for the (somewhat crippled) video functionality in the new 5D, I personally think the D700 BLOWS AWAY the 5D because of things like full frame, amazing AF, better TTL, on board flash, speed, stunning high ISO, etc. Now if you want video, albeit somewhat crippled, or need the added pixels, or already own a lot of canon glass, then it might be worth it, which is my case. But, the D3/D700 from a purely photographic standpoint are looking awful attractive at this point. And not at least providing 25p for euroland is basically a giangantic FU to europe.

It's not correct to say that this is an FU to europe. What leaving 25p (not to mention 24p) off the camera is is an FU to any independent filmmaker that hoped they might be able to use this camera to make a feature. And this is /not/ an oversight, it is a cynical strategy to protect sales of more expensive Canon gear.

Again: notice that no vendor on the planet will offer 24p HD and an interchangeable lens system to the low-budget indie filmmaker (we must always resort to hackery). And that includes RED, a company that after all the "revolutionary" rhetoric would have to now be considered sellouts.

And that includes RED, a company that after all the "revolutionary" rhetoric would have to now be considered sellouts.

I suspect/hope RED's announcement tomorrow will bring about a camera with a larger sensor but lower framerate for less money than, say the S35 or FF35 Scarlets they already announced. After all, many of us will run out and buy a 5d MkII the minute either 25p or 24p support is officially announced or unofficially hacked. By the time RED's scarlet comes out a year from now, there willl a lot of tricked-out 5d MkIIs acting as the darlings of the no-budget indie film world (especially if the shutter/aperture options are more "manualized"), and I'm pretty sure that's a market segment RED wants (in addition to the higher-end). The D90 and more so the MkII have shown what's possible with large sensors at an extremely low price point -- essentially doing to RED what RED did to Sony/et al. I don't imagine at film festivals a year or two from now that directors saying "we shot it on this amazing dSLR from Canon" would be something the RED folks want to hear all too often.

Anyway, we'll see. Maybe they can't deliver something at such a low price point if all they're selling for exponentially more money is higher framerates and marginally better dynamic range. Regardless, it's a good time to be a digital filmmaker.

I understand what you are saying Steven and I think you are correct about Canon's reasoning... but it is still a definate FU to Europe... maybe even worse so, because of the reasons you state. They have given Europe an unusable feature just to protect their camcorder market.

They could risk losing a whole hell of a lot of trade to Nikon if Nikon release a similar type of camera that shoots at 24/25p, opening itself up to the PAL market.

Canon may end up losing out in both the DSLR and camcorder markets (in europe and with filmakers, at least)

............................
This is of course bad news for those of us trying to persuade Canon that they need to put 25p into the camera.

That's the bad part. The more senior levels looks at sales and says "what problem?". Insufficient manual control is another bizarre situation. Before the limitations were understood, potential new Canon owners were asking about which Canon lenses to purchase. Now were talking about which Nikon Lenses will work on the 5DII.
Canon never adds features. Maybe this will be an exception.
Has anyone asked Canon, asked CPS Europe, for an official response of how the camera was going to work with 50i? It's a fair question.

I suspect/hope RED's announcement tomorrow will bring about a camera with a larger sensor but lower framerate for less money than, say the S35 or FF35 Scarlets they already announced.

If they change the product lineup after just a few weeks they will look bad. I think they will expand on the DSMC concept. For all their talk this year they didn't announce anything last month that would make a still photographer believe they "had a clue".

The lens thing is huge.

If I get a 5D MkII, I will will buy it for video, but will use it for stills as well. I'll buy mostly primes. I want the lenses to do all the AF tricks for stills, but I MUST be able to control aperture manually for video. Cost is another factor.

So... can I do it all with the latest Canon glass? Do I need to get manual Nikon glass for manual aperture control? Am I now screwed for stills? Will I end up with a Canon zoom for stills and Nikon primes for video?

Clearly, Canon and I are BOTH better off if I buy the latest Canon glass and I can use all the lenses to their full potential on both stills and video.

So... can I do it all with the latest Canon glass? Do I need to get manual Nikon glass for manual aperture control? Am I now screwed for stills? Will I end up with a Canon zoom for stills and Nikon primes for video?

Unless Canon issues a firmware update adding manual aperture or at least aperture priority movie mode, yes.

Guys,

Some of you may remember the debacle over the pro level Eos1dmkIII DSLR autofocus issues and Canon's failures to address successfully what was one of the primary functions of the camera for about a year. Rob Galbraith DPI: An analysis of EOS-1D Mark III autofocus performance (http://www.robgalbraith.com/bins/multi_page.asp?cid=7-8740-9068)

They lost a lot of sales to Nikon over that one but they still didn't rush to fix it.

Now the 5dmkII functions exactly how it is specified to in video and so from their point of view nothing is wrong with it. If they take so long to fix known problems why would they rush to fix problems that don't think are problems.

About three years ago I used to attend Canon Europa's pro round tables with a select group of top photographers from the major news agencies. They spent two days letting us test the cameras on a race circuit and in the studio because they wanted to know how to make them better. At that time we told them about many improvements that should have been made to the original 5D and Eos1DmkII for stills work. Many of those improvements could have been made in firmware but actually you had to wait until the 5DmkII and 1DmkIII came along to see most of them.

These are the reasons I can't really see them rushing to add features to the movie mode. I hope I am wrong. I think it will take Nikon or Sony to introduce new models with video before you see a big change.

Dan

Thanks for the insight, Dan. I suppose our hopes lie with CHDK or someone else to figure out the firmware...

CHDK - CHDK Wiki (http://chdk.wikia.com/wiki/CHDK)

As for the new RED announcement, it's nothing that really affects the full-frame, low-light shooter currently evaluating the 5d MkII for video. The $3k RED is a hell of a deal, absolutely -- no denying that. But you've still got to shell out $7k plus lenses and accessories (bringing it to $10k, absolute minimum) to even get to a Super35-sized sensor.

http://www.redgrabs.com/up/1228299243.jpg