A question from a newbie (and I have spent a lot of time here already, but I can't find the answer!):

My son's school choir is wonderful. (As if I'd say otherwise - duh.) (It's the Canberra Grammar Chamber Choir in Australia.) Last year they went to the Anzac celebrations in France and England; they were invited back next year. They get to sing in Westminster Abbey, Winchester Cathedral, St John's College Cambridge, St George's Chapel in Windsor Castle - and on the fields of the Somme in France. (They're talking about the Palace of Versailles too.)

It's a 40-voice SATB choir, accompanied with whatever is there - a capella sometimes, piano sometimes, organ in cathedrals.

We came back from the last trip with some very average home camcorder footage which was then produced (badly) and distributed to the parents and kids. And it was still wonderful. Next year we'd like to do them justice, so I'm planning to fund the cameras and sound gear, get a couple of amateurs trained in how to use the stuff, and get the output produced professionally.

But no-one has the answer: What gear should I get? I'm thinking two cameras and two mikes on booms in front of the choir - but they'd need to be wireless because we can't run wires back to a camera - or can we? Or do we record to a time-coded recorder sitting between the mikes? We can't just run a mike on the camera, or can we?

As for cameras I'm wondering if two HD camcorders will do the trick, or for what we need (low light performance especially) do we need to go the next step up?

The requirement is simple (!) - I need to bring back enough quality footage which can be then produced into something that everyone can enjoy.

Oh yes - there will be footage shot on the plane, impromptu a capella performances in French villages, short grabs of all the kids (and grownups) on the trip. But the key is to make sure that we can get very good sound and video inside cathedrals and on the fields of the Somme. The impromptu stuff - well, everyone expects that to be a bit rough.

And if this isn't the right place to post this, my apologies. I spent a good half hour deciding that alone!

Regards

Neil

P.S. To give you an idea of what sort of toys I normally play with I currently use a Nikon D70, a Sony HD camcorder (hard disk 120GB I think), I use a Rode Podcaster on my desk for presentations and the like (where a headset would be quite acceptable!). So I'm at the medium-high-quality consumer end of things. I have no problem in stepping up a level if that is required, but I don't want to spend money just for the sake of it. Funding five people for the trip is fairly expensive too . . .

A question from a newbie (and I have spent a lot of time here already, but I can't find the answer!):

My son's school choir is wonderful. (As if I'd say otherwise - duh.) (It's the Canberra Grammar Chamber Choir in Australia.) Last year they went to the Anzac celebrations in France and England; they were invited back next year. They get to sing in Westminster Abbey, Winchester Cathedral, St John's College Cambridge, St George's Chapel in Windsor Castle - and on the fields of the Somme in France. (They're talking about the Palace of Versailles too.)

It's a 40-voice SATB choir, accompanied with whatever is there - a capella sometimes, piano sometimes, organ in cathedrals.

We came back from the last trip with some very average home camcorder footage which was then produced (badly) and distributed to the parents and kids. And it was still wonderful. Next year we'd like to do them justice, so I'm planning to fund the cameras and sound gear, get a couple of amateurs trained in how to use the stuff, and get the output produced professionally.

But no-one has the answer: What gear should I get? I'm thinking two cameras and two mikes on booms in front of the choir - but they'd need to be wireless because we can't run wires back to a camera - or can we? Or do we record to a time-coded recorder sitting between the mikes? We can't just run a mike on the camera, or can we?

As for cameras I'm wondering if two HD camcorders will do the trick, or for what we need (low light performance especially) do we need to go the next step up?

The requirement is simple (!) - I need to bring back enough quality footage which can be then produced into something that everyone can enjoy.

Oh yes - there will be footage shot on the plane, impromptu a capella performances in French villages, short grabs of all the kids (and grownups) on the trip. But the key is to make sure that we can get very good sound and video inside cathedrals and on the fields of the Somme. The impromptu stuff - well, everyone expects that to be a bit rough.

And if this isn't the right place to post this, my apologies. I spent a good half hour deciding that alone!

Regards

Neil

P.S. To give you an idea of what sort of toys I normally play with I currently use a Nikon D70, a Sony HD camcorder (hard disk 120GB I think), I use a Rode Podcaster on my desk for presentations and the like (where a headset would be quite acceptable!). So I'm at the medium-high-quality consumer end of things. I have no problem in stepping up a level if that is required, but I don't want to spend money just for the sake of it. Funding five people for the trip is fairly expensive too . . .

I'm no expert at this stuff but if low light is absolutely essential and you are OK with SD go with the PD170 (is the 190 also available in Australia?) as it has a rating of 1 lux. For HD perhaps the new Sony Z5, the Z7, or even the EX1 would do. As for mics, having them on-camera is acceptable (recently shot an orchestra performance with a PD190P and Rode NTG-1 plus PD100AP and Rode VideoMic, both mics on camera with decent sound) but definitely look into having a boom setup if possible. I think I'll leave it to the more experienced users here to go further. Good luck!

Sounds like you already have an SR12 (120G HD camera you mention). That's as good as you'll get for "low light" in a small cam, and a couple of those should be sufficiently simple for non-experts to press record and aim, once you've set them the way you want them (I personally run the AE shift a bit to the negative most times). You'd have to be the judge, having shot in the same locations previously, as to whether the SR will "go low" enough.

FWIW, the CX12 uses the same sensor block and is fairly similar to the SR's, but uses MS Duo for recording media. - if you have a laptop and the ability to dump footage "on the road", that cam could work well with the SR's.

Beyond that, you're starting to talk a lot of gear (heck, my SR11/CX12 multicam setup is a fair amount of gear!) You'll get "better" results with something like the EX1/3, but it's going to be bigger and bulkier for travel, and may not be a huge improvement other than if you're in truly "bad" lighting... Sony just released the FX1000 (tape based) as well, and it's getting decent reviews for low light, and it's a bit less money.

You should be sure to kit out any "camera operators" with proper support (tripod/monopod/stabilizer). THAT is probably more critical to getting good usable HD footage than the choice of camera. In good to decent light, the small consumer cameras shoot some pretty good footage as long as you can keep them steady! You could add on some lighting in the budget for "close in" interview type stuff - if you're shooting in a dark interior, well now you are going to have to have a camera that can handle that, and you're back to the "big guns"...

Hope that wasn't too confusing, I myself have a very compact setup using the small cams, and find it's pretty good for most situations. Don't reach for the big cams much anymore...

For audio, you might want to take a look at some good quality digital recorders (lots of good reviews here on DVi in the dedicated audio section), sync in post. You'll get a far better audio track to work with than the cameras can provide, and since this is after all primarily a "audio" event, that's where I'd put more of the budget.

Colin, Dave

Thanks. I've surfed and found out a lot. Dave: I'm definitely dumb - I can't find the "dedicated audio section". You've confirmed my gut feel - the quality of the image I get from the Sony is quite extraordinary, and while it would be good to go to the FX1000 the downside of size, bulk, weight etc tells me that little cameras would be better. Yes, we've got heaps of computing power traveling with us so the backup camera could well be the CX12 - and it would probably be good to have similar quality and style in the video from both cameras.

Colin - thanks for the on-camera mike info. I'll definitely get a Rode mike (or something very similar) but I also think that some sort of dedicated audio miked with a couple of good mikes on stands would produce more consistent sound. But once I go that route a lot of other questions arise - how do I sync the sound from a dedicated recorder with the video from a couple of cameras? (This is where I need to find the link to the audio section!)

And I will definitely get a couple of good tripods. We suffered this week by having a cheap tripod.

A couple of people have suggested the all-in-one digital recorders that are cropping up - the ones with two mikes at an angle. The suggestion is to put just one of them on a stand in front of the choir. Any comments on this idea? If it works it would be wonderful.

But you're right Dave - this really is an audio event. That's what we have to get right.

Neil

This sound like a series of prerecorded Outside Broadcasts to me and the logistics should not be underestimated. Sorry if you are already aware of all these issues but I'm hoping some of this will be helpful.

Locations:
The recording of choir and organ in different locations on tour is a HUGE undertaking. Ideally, each location should be scouted well in advance with level checks and test recordings made and the best part of a day set aside for set up ... and that's just the audio. Have you checked with the location authorities that they will allow you to set up cameras and mics by the way? You can't just walk in to a cathedral and set up gear. Many ban cameras as a matter of policy.

Wireless:
Yes it's possible but you must check the legal frequencies for the counties you will be in, and have the appropriate equipment. It could save you time in running cables, but against that there could be interference from a number of sources.

Cables:
That's the usual way of doing things but you must consult the cathedral staff on health and safety issues and cable runs must not present a hazard. You may well need LONG runs to accommodate this - could you carry several cables on tour?

Practical suggestions:
You do NOT want on-camera mics for this. It would sound very distant and lose all clarity in the acoustic of a cathedral. Get a good stereo mic or a matched pair (I get pretty decent results with Rode NT-1A mics) set up as a stereo pair above head height in front of the choir. That will however leave the organ to take its chance - it would be better to have a separate mic for the organ if possible but that usually means using an audio mixer - more gear to carry and set up. We would have to know the performance layout to predict whether a simple stereo pair run straight to the camera would work in capturing audio satisfactorily.

If that seems unlikely to work, you could abandon the stereo for the choir and go for a single front centrally placed mic for the choir and keep the other channel for the organ. It will be possible to create some kind of acceptable stereo image in post.

If you need more mics, a multichannel recorder is the usual solution, but you could might consider running mics for choir, organ and soloist(s) in pairs of channels to several different cameras and sync it all up in post. Renting cameras like the Canon XH-G1 that can be synched together means you can do this much more easily, but it can be done with a bit of luck and a lot of work in post with less exotic equipment.

Whether you use the camera(s) or a portable recorder to record the audio, microphone placement is going to make or break the result.

Other:
Planning is everything. I do events/concerts like this from time to time and without anything like the gear I really should have and it takes a long time to work out in advance how to do it. Then the gear must be all set up and tested before the rehearsal starts - tripods, stands, cables (usually with mats/covers or ramps over passageways and aisles, and some "up and overs" at doorways etc.) and finally mics/cameras/mixers/monitors etc. If you are happy to do a lot of work in post you can simplify things on the day and avoid mixing live. You may feel an idiot at the time and get some funny looks from the audience, but if you can walk into shot of all the cameras (just before the performance starts) and clap your hands you have a sync reference point which is invaluable.

To get decent audio, you (and the audience) will probably have to accept some degree of visual intrusion from mics and stands in front of performers. I'm not even going to start on lighting under tour conditions, and please tells us none of the performances use an orchestra :-)

[...]please tells us none of the performances use an orchestra :-)

+1 on evrything you said. Of course what i film is pretty low-key so on-camera mics work OK but I have to admit there was a very high margin of error there.

Interesting opportunity. The challenges presented seem to crop up on three fronts: audio quality, video (like dur) and logistics.

SOUND - The sonic issues are really beyond my pay grade for the most part but you do not want to use any mics attached to a camera. You're just too far away and if you use a shotgun mic and pan the camera, the sound will change. I think the best you can do is use a pair of mics on stands. I cannot recommend any specific mics but I don't think you want shotguns. I'd guess cardiods would be good, but I'll leave that to someone with more experience. I think you're going to want your own stands. Something that can get fairly tall would be good, but for portability you could get away with something that reaches to a couple of meters high could work. Look for light ones with folding legs. Easier to transport.

VIDEO - Your current cam should work as the B cam. You haven't said whether it will be operated or locked off. If it's static, a cheap, solid tripod will work just fine. If there's ever a place where you could clamp something to a post or scaffolding, you might want to look into the Manfrotto Super Clamp system. This might give you some interesting looking camera placements.

This next bit is key. Get good sticks and head for your A cam. You'll want a fluid head for smooth pans and tilts. The better Libec units review well. I have a cheaper Libec set and the legs are very stiff. I think they're aluminum so they should be light.

You'll really want an A cam with XLR inputs. Without them, you'll just hate being you. I can't really comment on Sony cams since I'm a Canon guy but for your purposes, sticking with Sony makes sense.

LOGISTICS - You'll really want to come up with some kind of travel case arrangement that will protect your gear and make it easy to transport. You'll might want to get a big Pelican case with wheels for the mics, cables, batteries, tapes, hard drives, etc. that can be checked on aircraft. You'll probably want to package your A cam separately so you can carry it onto the plane. You don't want to trust it to guys whose mantra is "fragile means underhand".

I'd recommend doing some tests during local rehearsals well before the big travel day arrives. You'll be doing this over and over whilst in Europe and you'll want everything to go as smoothly as you can make it.

Hope that helps, and good luck.

Neil,

I feel the high end options are very well covered by previous posts and I just want to add a very simple additional option that resolves some of the complications but has it's own downsides.

Rent / buy three solid state recorders with good built-in stereo mikes at an angle (I lost overview, I suggest checking online reviews for which ones have the best sound from their own mikes).

Two of them in front of the choir, one goes as close as possible to the organ/piano/orchestra. Start them at the beginning of the show, check during the break and pray they run through (reasonably, they should). They got their own batteries, so no cables required whatsoever.

Take footage with the small Sony's and monopods (tripods if possible, but you can smuggle small monopods/sony cams, small micstands and those small solid state audio things into pretty much any place).

Back at home, get someone with decent sound mixing experience. Give him the 6 tracks (3*stereo) and the task to pick a few "gems" out of the portfolio of songs and create a good mix for them. This poor person will have to synch tracks manually for every song and compensate all the imperfections (echo, noise, clipping), but there you could spend some of the money you saved on gear. 6 tracks = quite some material to adjust levels and fix recording errors.

After you got the best songs, get the footage that belongs to it. If you told your camera operators to keep rolling from beginning of the show towards the pause / end, synching 5 cameras will be less headdache. Still, probably every single closeup will have to be adjusted for lipsynch manually anyway (we are talking Sony consumer cams). THIS IS THE KEY: In my experience it's not much more headache to synch 4 cameras to a 5th with synch sound than synching 5 cameras to a recorded song.

A lot of manual "tuning" in post process, but a lot of money and trouble saved on your trip.

Just my 2 cents. By the way, congratulations! Westminster! Wow! (not to mention all the other great places)

Thomas

Neil.


Can I suggest you go a different route for this.

Why not contact the ABC, SBS, or Film Australia to see if they would be interested in making a documantary around this event. If they are not, they may give you a contact for an entity who might be interested.

If it comes off, you will get your coverage with a lot less pain and grief for yourself. Your workload on the journey is probably going to be hard enough. If you are documenting it audio-visually, to do it justice, you would ideally not be encumbered with other competing responsibilities.

I've been pondering the logistics of your venture long and hard since you first posted, mentally going over the sheer amount of gear and organization required to pull it off in any meaningfull way.

I have to admit my first, second and even third reaction was: Holy Mother of God, what a nightmare.

Hence no post, till now.

Bob's comment (above) got me to thinking a tad lateral.

(BTW, there is distinct merit in what he says, tho' I have my doubts as to it's sellability).

My thinking goes thus:

There are really two different shoots going on here.

Firstly, the fixed, set piece extravaganza's which really need a shed load of gear, and, more importantly, a shed load of people who know what they're doing to set up, mike, light, shoot and record everything going on.

Second, the ad hoc, run 'n gun type stuff which can be shot on a "if you get it, you get it, if you don't, too bad" basis - on the plane/ bus/ dining rooms etc etc.

I think, Neil, you and your band of happy amateurs can probably handle the latter with a bit of training and practice. It's the sort of thing that can be practised long and hard before you set out and the equipment and techniques refined to give a pretty good result.

The first is a different kettle of muffins altogether.

There really is no substitute for decent gear and people who know how to use it for these situations.

Now, whereas I can see you guys pretty easilly carrying and using the gear for Item 2, I cannot see how you can do justice to Item 1.

So, my suggestion.

As the Item 1 locations are both known and fixed, as are the dates and times AND hopefully, permissions can be had (never underestimate the ability of beurocracy to derail even the simplest venture) why not put out an APB (all points bulletin) to European based DVinfo'ers who are tooled up for this sort of thing and see if you can rustle up some willing helpers?

Post the locations, dates and times (their start times, not the event start times) and the gear required and see what crawls out of the woodwork (I know, DVinfo'ers don't "crawl out.............").

As for gear: Mikes, stands, a good multi channel mixer, wireless systems, HD camera's (name your poison as to type), camera supports, lights?, etc etc etc.

I reckon with a bit of persuasion (expenses would be a good start) you could put together a pretty decent OB crew for at least some of the events, if not all.

When I posted my own APB a year or so ago, I had DVinfo'ers volunteering from as far away as the UK, USA and even Canada!

(I hasten to add, this was for a fixture here in the liddle 'ol South Island of NZ mind, and that's quite a treck for a shoot! The sheer quality and quantity of volunteers was embarrassing.)

In the event this doesn't do the trick (can't see why it won't) you could aways "go large" and hire in the needed talent, I'm sure some of our European DVinfo'ers could point you in the right direction.

I realise that latter option is getting up there in the costs stakes but maybe the other parents can be persuaded to cough a proportion.

Food for thought.


CS


PS: Do wish CH and Jeff had got the "regional flags" thing sorted for this, would have made your job a lot easier getting those volunteers. (nudge, nudge).

How I would do it:

Get one performance recorded professionally. In the venue that will be easiest to record. Shoot video and stills of the whole trip. Put it all together. You can even use appropriate audio from local performances.
If you try to record a whole performance with good audio and good video it will never happen. You will have a very long home movie with bad sound. Make it into something exciting, with tight shots of the kids. Shoot to get the energy and emotion.
Documenting doesn't have to mean starting the video in the balcony at the beginning of each performance.
Also, some of the places you mentioned are very dark. Without video lighting you will have marginal footage. Another reason to not think linear.

Neil, there is some great advice in the posts. It all depends on how much you want to upgrade from your last experience.

I have used a compact digital recorder, a Zoom H2, with results I was very pleased with for a choir concert my daughter sang in. I wasn't as close as I should have been but it was still very good.

I used the same H2 to record a pipe organ for a short documentary.

If I was doing the trip, two camcorders, decent tripods and the H2 would be on my list.

Neil,
How soon is this all happening?

Guys - there is a lot of great advice here. Awesome, in fact. Thanks to everyone so far! What's great about this is that I have been researching and asking everyone that I can think of with no real answers; I post the question on this forum and I get heaps of help. Gotta love technology.

In answer to Colin: No, there's no orchestra! As for lighting - that's why I'm looking for low light performance - lighting would be out of the question. One of the performances will be in Hyde Park for the dawn Anzac ceremony, so it would not only be logistically difficult, it wouldn't be very respectful.

Don: Thanks for focusing me on making what someone is going to actually watch.

Where I am right now:

Get three Zoom H4s (I'm assuming because "4" is bigger than "2" that the H4 is better for me than the H2 . . . ) for the sound. I'm guessing that syncing the sound is going to be hard work no matter what I do. By going the stand-alone recorders route I'll eliminate the need for wireless mikes - except that I've realised I'll need a couple of lavs for the soloists. (One is my son, so I can't miss that. He's not likely to get to sing solo in Westminster Abbey more than once in a lifetime.)

And yes, Westminster Abbey is a wonderful highlight, but apparently getting the gig at St George's Chapel in Windsor Castle is an even harder thing. They did Westminster last year; to get invited back two years later was very surprising.

So, three stand-alone recorders, two wireless lavs (feeding into a Zoom?) and a Rode (stereo?) shotgun for the ad-hoc stuff. That's the audio sorted. Maybe.

I'd love some comments, particularly if I have it wrong!

Cameras: It seems my humble Sony HD camcorder is quite good. I actually won it, which makes it even better. Yes, I think it would be the good B cam. As for the A cam - it starts to get to be an expensive hobby, doesn't it???

It seems that the new Sony EX1 is nice, although a bit pricey in Oz at A$9,300. Is the 0.14 lux spec real? Does that really compare with the 7 lux spec of my Sony? If it really does do 0.14 lux does that mean it will record in the dark - or at least record in cathedrals?

Yes, I could probably convince myself I could afford it if it really is going to show in the final result. (Ouch!) And if I bought that then I'd have to spend at least $1,000 on the tripod to do it justice.

As for calling an APB nearer the date - that might be by far the best solution! Given that it's an Anzac trip I reckon we'd get some expat Aussies and Kiwis to help.

Colin: I just saw your post re when it is happening - 13 April to 1 May 2009. We start off in the fields of France; end in St George's Chapel I think. So we probably do have enough time to work out what we want and then practice a lot.

Thanks again guys.

Neil

Neil,

If you're going to call an APB don't leave it till later, tempus fugit and all that crap, this takes time.

It's possible that a cam (or cams) suitable for the lo light can be sourced on location saving the gut busting expense, you'd really be suprised at what the DVinfo net can capture.

Go for the APB now and see what happens, it will give you an idea of what you will have and what you won't.

More grist to the mill.


CS

Chris

Thanks. I'll think this through over the next few days. If I'm going to call an APB I'll make sure that the whole story is available. Again, it's amazing and truly heartwarming to see the amount of effort unknown people put into this. But then again, as an entrepeneur I'm always surprised at the assistance I get from like-minded people - until I remember that I'm as willing to give as much assistance as I can to anyone who asks. It's neat and humbling too.

BTW: I certainly have taken everything on board, guys. Sponge mode on. Keep it coming.

I'll call the ABC and SBS (Aussie broadcasters) this week. It's worth an ask.

What this exercise has done already is to take me from doing something half-well into wanting to do it very well.

Neil

What this exercise has done already is to take me from doing something half-well into wanting to do it very well.

Isn't that always the way. Its a challenge many of us face.

As an aside, I'm a motor racing fan and when I moved up here last year I found a storied local track that needed a shooter. So I started shooting some races. Having never done that before, the first few were really rubbish. But by the end of the season many, including the track owner really liked what I'd put together so much that I was asked to do a quick season retrospective for their banquet. You can see some of the peripheral pieces here: Oxford Plains Speedway Channel (http://www.vimeo.com/oxfordplains). I shot and cut all of this myself.

My point being that there's a lot you can do with proper preparation and practice. And you don't always need a shed load of people and kit to get it done. It just makes it easier to do well and gives you more options. Going "light" means you have to be smarter about what and how you shoot.

Chris is right (again) in saying your prep should start now. From the APB to practice shooting in different venues, you cannot start to soon to make sure that all is ready when you board the first plane.

One other thing I'd suggest you think about. You've focused upon capturing the performances which should be the centerpiece of your project. You might also want to look at other facets of the story that you could capture. The kids in the group. The sights you'll see. Anything that will add more threads to the story will make the end result more interesting.

I don't know your ultimate goals for the delivery of this piece beyond preserving time for the kids and their parents, but if done well you might be able to sell some DVDs or BDs to those who have seen the group's performances or even place them for sale in the gift shops of the venues you'll be going to. Will you make a lot of money with these options? Probably not. They're just options to consider.

What a neat opportunity you have.

Hi ,
I strongly recommend the Zoom recorders, however I came up against a small potential problem recently, a borrowed H4 wouldn't accept a 4GB HC SD card. I used the Zoom as a stand alone mic, and had to set and forget 30 minutes before the concert started, and retrieve afterwards.
Also, Why not use a separate ZoomH2 with a wired lav in place for the soloist. Heaps cheaper than a wireless lav, and none of the hiss. If you use Nimh batteries, you can just record the whole shebang.
One word of caution, the zooms, and any other non synchronised recorder have time slip, you can correct in post with most of the editing packages, Vegas, FCP Avid etc.

As for cameras, I recommend mini DV tape, love the Canon HV20 and 30. They are HD, do a reasonable job in low light, are small and easy to use. You can post your tapes back home to yourself, unless you are taking some serious computing power with you and want to download from a HDD cam on the road. Get some spare battery packs for cameras. Ive also done a youtube tutorial for multicam,
YouTube - How To - Tutorial Part ONE Video Camera Skills and Tips for Multi Camera Concert (http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=h2XWTY4_Qvw)
Chris

Thanks yet again everyone.

A timely blog entry from Vincent Laforet: Tips and Tricks for the 5D MKII - PART II - Audio Vincent Laforet’s Blog (http://blog.vincentlaforet.com/2008/12/08/tips-and-tricks-for-the-5d-mkii-part-ii-audio/) - "My first recommendation is always to record your audio independently - i.e. with a separate device. This gives you much greater freedom with your edit when you have a continuous sound recording - and are now free to cut between shots even if they weren’t sequential. If you want to shoot stills and video - an independent audio recording device allows you to cut between stills and video - shot with the same camera."

He has some nice things to say about Rode mikes, which is good because they're Aussie and I'll go for the local product because I'm parochial.

Re time slip on digital recorders: Yes, I can see how it can't be avoided, but how often in (say) a one-hour recording would you need to re-synch?

Re Zoom H2 versus H4: Still can't figure out the answer to that one. I thought I had it - the H4 is 4 track, but the specs say you can only record two tracks at once. It seems that both will do the job so the simpler option (H2) is the best as long as the mike quality is OK.

Love the idea of an H2 recording directly from a lav for the soloists. This is getting simpler and simpler. That idea sure beats wireless. (Maybe use 4 H2s/H4s - two in front, one on the soloist, one on the organ.)

We'll be taking a lot of computing power with us - my day job is building and selling a Recruitment CRM by Recruitment Systems (http://www.RecruitmentSystems.com) so there's never a problem about the amount of technology available. (That also means we'll be able to create a lot of content on the road and YouTube it for the folks back home.)

What I have got so far:
1. Practise.
2. Keep it simple.
3. There are a lot of people on this forum who know a great deal.
4. Zoom H2s or H4s.
5. Skip wireless.
6. A camera only a little better than my little Sony HD will cost a lot - but they are available for rent.
7. Use damn good video tripods.
8. On-camera mikes aren't good enough - a Rode shotgun seems to be the way to go.
9. Record a lot of video and do the editing in the computer.
10. Record the sound from start to finish on multiple recorders.
11. . . . and quite a bit more.

Thanks

Neil Bolton (http://www.recruitmentsystems.com.au/recruitment-systems-founders.aspx)

Neil.


If you get a chance and if it still around, try to look at a Film Australia doco titled "Mum. How Do They Spell Gorbatroff". It may well be available from Film Australia archives. It would be a good template for your project if you don't get a doco crew aboard. I think Channel Nine also did a 60 minutes spot on the Qantas Choir's world trip to make the " I Still Call Australia Home" advertisements, again worth a look if you did not see the broadcast.

In your instance, it is likely a doco crew would search for and home in on distinctive personalities within the group, among the kids and among the leaders and chaperones.

They may divert into mini biographies, with the perfomances as underscore and blend these with the performances which may not be entire, just closing finales or significant soloes within a performance.

Their antennae will be twitching for glitches and mini-crises to happen, reactions and how these are resolved, you know, lost luggage, heartbreak over a broken instrument, homesickness, crisis of confidence. They will be on the lookout for internal feuding, brawling and clash of personalities and how these are or are not resolved. That is the nature of reality TV these days and it is neither pretty nor comfortable for those in front of the lens.

Camera-in-face examination of these things is not all that pleasurable and a real distraction from the primary task. The course of such a documentary and the final story it tells is neither in your control nor does it necessarily distill into a form of your liking.

That is the downside to my suggestion.

Whatever, documentary or no, the adventure itself is bound to be a good gig. Enjoy.

Breaking news: It looks like they'll get a gig to sing in Notre Dame . . .

This is getting cooler and cooler. All the more reason to do it right.

Neil

Hey Neil,
I'm a resident of the "Royal Borough of Windsor & Maidenhead" and live about 7 miles from the castle. If you need an extra cam at the castle let drop me a line, would happily give up a few hours to film there, it's a magic place!

Cheers,

Rob

Rob said: I'm a resident of the "Royal Borough of Windsor & Maidenhead" and live about 7 miles from the castle. If you need an extra cam at the castle let drop me a line, would happily give up a few hours to film there, it's a magic place!

Just got your message, Rob. Thanks for the offer of an extra cam - I'll certainly keep you in the loop and probably take you up on it.

Where I am up to:

I'm going to get the audio right, and it seems that it is easier than I thought.

As for the video - um, I think I need a new toy - a Canon 5d Mk 2. I know it can't shoot for longer than 12 minutes or something, but it might be the "quality" cam, if not the A cam.

I'll send more info later, plus the reasons for doing it. Needless to say there's been about fifty hours of serious research so far . . .

Now the tough job is to get the story for the documentary. I Googled "How to make a documentary" and it's not something I can learn in half an hour. Damn. But it's the only way anyone will watch it.

Neil

Neil,

I may be preaching to the converted here or just blowing hot air, but..........if you need help with this, why not ask?

There's some pretty serious talent lined up here on the boards (most huddled indoors using their pc's for warmth in the Northern weather), and I cannot believe that if the case was put and the parameters were outlined, you couldn't get some serious help with this.

I do realise that with every additional "talent", the level of difficulty rises by X percent just on an organizational level, but it would appear on the surface that you're taking on one heck of a production, and from the feedback I've seen so far here, on your own.

Now, that could be complete hogwash.

Your query re "documentary" is a case in point tho' - why not ask on DVinfo?

Heck, if you can't get chapter and verse here, where the farout are you going to get it?

Do yourself a favour - get back on board the DVinfo raft and let's see what we can do.

CS

Chris said:

"Do yourself a favour - get back on board the DVinfo raft and let's see what we can do."

I'm back. A bit of a break for Christmas.

"Your query re "documentary" is a case in point tho' - why not ask on DVinfo? Heck, if you can't get chapter and verse here, where the farout are you going to get it?"

OK, I think I've got the technology sorted. But, just like my owning some very nice guitars and not doing them justice, until I learn how to use it it's going to painful for people to listen.

Next question:

Where's the best "How to make a documentary" info? I do know that's a VERY big ask, but there's this thing called the Internet that makes stuff very accessible.

As for this being a hell of a project - um, yes, that tends to be the way I do things. Take a big bite and chew like crazy.

Neil

Neil.


Those Zoom things you are intending to record sound on, you will need to try-try-try and practice when your players are in rehearsal.

At least once when you have a full house of beating hearts with bodies attached on seats soaking up all the echoes. This is to enable you a sense of how much human mass will affect the rercordings.

On the tour you may not have the luxury of time to do a full test in the venues you play at.

Auto gain in musical recording sucks bigtime, the pumping effect where background ambiences rises and fall behind a constant primary source.

Camera audio can sends ears people like me insane but layering of multiple camera-audio sources can sometimes bring something back when a primary source fails, so don't throw out camera audio or neglect the audio settings in the cameras as sync tracks only. POV ambiences laid at almost subaudible levels can be a powerful subliminal tool.

You may find an "apparent" sync failure in audio between several cameras. There are two things at play here. The main one being the time it takes for the sound to travel to a distant camera versus a closer one. The other of course is the reverbrances within a building.

You may find if you layer the camera audios in a desperate recovery attempt for a critical moment, you may achieve a sweeter result if you slip some of the audio tracks one frame or another forward or back. If you have a decent sound software, you can do this even more effectively with dynamic effects of delays, reverbs and crossing channels back on each other.

Sometimes an unpleasant reverb or echo to one camera may be dimininshed in its presence with another source laid over.

This is mostly after-the-event stuff to consider. I am not practiced in these things myself, just done one or two gigs multicamera.

One last donkey trap. - If you are taking a mixer feed into any of your cameras, say an EX1 if you get hold of one, bung on a set of headphones or watch the level meters, then tap the on-camera mike to make sure the external source has been selected. It is so easy to think the internal mike is not on when in fact it is.

If your cameras have infra-red remotes, unless you are actually using the remotes to control the cameras, select this function off in menu. There may be somebody else at the gig doing the same thing as you. They button-on their camera with their remote and yours buttons off.

Maybe do a bit of sleuthing to see if others are videoing the gig, especially if your own group is only part of a larger presentation. Who knows, you might help each other.

It might be worthwhile enquiring about any domestic media coverage of any of these events as an additional source of coverage.

Sometimes a host organisation or venue imposes a "we get a copy of your footage and we get to later use the footage for free" clause as a condition of media access to a closed event. It may be possible to negotiate an extention for your documentary. You will need to to do this well beforehand and you may yourself find your own footage similarly treated.

What gear should I get? I'm thinking two cameras

Others have addressed the cameras. Too bad the Sony TCR-900 isn't around anymore. That is my go-to camera for lightweight portable use in low-light conditions.

and two mikes on booms in front of the choir - but they'd need to be wireless because we can't run wires back to a camera - or can we? Or do we record to a time-coded recorder sitting between the mikes? We can't just run a mike on the camera, or can we?

Two mics on tall stands might be nice, but when I am on the road and quick and simple setup is desirable (to say nothing of minimal visual impact) I prefer using one tall stand and a stereo microphone. My favorite is my Sony ECM-MS5, but close second is the Rode NT4. Note that using a co-incident stereo microphone preserves monaural compatibility for viewers watching your DVD on their old tellys.

You want to get the mic up high enough to "see" each row of singers directly (without being blocked by the row in front). This means at least 10-12 feet (3m). I typically use a tall "lighting stand" because it is lightweight and folds up compactly for travel. There are various ways of adapting the mic clip to the light stand depending on exactly what kind you have.

Position the stand at a distance away from the choir that grabs the best-sounding mix of direct (singers) and indirect (venue reverberation). Too close and you might as well have recorded it in a dead classroom back home. Too far and it will sound like they are singing in a big cave, etc. Have the sound person wear a good set of closed headphones to judge this sound. This is the most critical sound "setting" and it typically arrived at by moving the mic stand forward and back during rehearsal to understand the ambiance of the venue.

You are probably correct that stringing mic cables likely isn't a good thing for this sort of "run-n-gun" kind of production. You can get adapters which allow connecting professional XLR mic cables to cameras with only mini-phone mic inputs. But regardless of whether the camera has XLR or mini-phone inputs, you must be able to TURN OFF THE AUTO-LEVEL. The automatic recording level on cameras may be OK for dialog, but it is DEATH TO MUSIC, particularly"classical" music.

Avoid wireless mics completely. The good ones (that cost as much as your camera) are tolerable when absolutely necessary, but they are generally a pain and a major source of potential and actual problems. Not to mention that even the very best aren't that good at handling wide dynamic range classical music.

In any case, I prefer to use a separate digital recorder. If it is small enough you can attach it directly to the mic stand and have no cables for people to trip over. Likely any of the current crop of small digital music recorders would do well for this application.

Modern equipment (even consumer-grade) has crystal clocks running everything that are good enough to maintain reasonable sync for at least ~10 minutes, and it seems unlikely that the group will perform anything that is longer than that (longer works tend to be broken up into movements or other sections, etc.)

If the audio and video recordings DO drift, there are many easy and seamless ways of fixing it during editing. You can always "pull-up" the sync in between songs, during applause, etc. And if you are shooting multiple cameras, every time you switch between cameras is annother seamless point to pull up the sync. You would use your digital audio recording during editing as the "master track" and slip the camera video to sync with the master audio track.

Use the built-in mics on the cameras to record a "reference track" so you know how to sync them up. Of course you are correct that the built-in camera microphones are NOT useful for this kind of shooting (or for much of ANY kind of shooting, for that matter.) Assuming you have someone who recognizes the music, it isn't really even mandatory that you keep either the audio or the video recordings running continuously. It is easier to sync the video to the (master) audio track than you think. I do it frequently and it is easier to do than it is to explain.

I came from a background in location recording classical music before taking up video production. I started working in video originally to try to reverse the dreadful trend of audio I was hearing on television. I will be doing virtually exactly what I have just described for a men's chorus (OAMC (http://www.oamc.org)) of well over 100 voices (combined with the local singers) when our choir travels to Romania in April. I'm planning on taking 2-3 (empty) sand-bags and filling them in-country to use as "ballast" to keep the tall stand stable, even if someone runs into it. I'm also taking bright yellow gaffers tape to secure the stand to the floor and to "paint" a guard band so that people can avoid the legs, etc.

Richard

Awesome post. (Not to denigrate any of the other posts in any way!)

I'm reading and planning.

Neil

Where we are up to:

Next Friday I'm to record a demo of the choir to send to Notre Dame, so now the rubber hits the road. Thursday is practise, Friday is recording.

I have bought:

Two Zoom H4s
A pair of Rode NT5s
A Sennheiser Freeport transmitter and receiver
A Rode video mike.

After initial testing at home all I can say is: THANKS for the advice, guys!

The Rode NT5s seem to be sensational, and I'm really proud of an Aussie company making gear this good. The Zoom H4s take a bit of learning, and I'm going to have to write a Quick Start guide (a manual for people who don't read 'em) because this kit will be used by people other than myself. But the quality of the recording so far is exceptional.

I bought the NT5s instead of an NT4 because in a couple of gigs the choir is has a gap in the middle. (La Madeline is one, I think, and the acoustics there are very good - good enough to try really hard to record it really well.) The NT4 would have made it a little simpler, the NT5s give me a bit more flexibility - and a bigger chance of stuffing it up, so I'll have to make sure I do it right.

The Sennheiser wireless kit was on the recommendation of the bloke who owned the shop, and it turns out that his son is in the choir and I never knew, so I got a fabulous deal on all of this. I think I got it at almost cost. Anyhow, the Sennheiser just works, really well. And the solo track isn't crucial, just a nice-to-have, so if it breaks in the field we'll still have the main audio.

What I'll be doing:

Mounting the NT5s on tall stands (thanks Richard) and recording that to one of the H4s.

Having the soloist wear the Sennheiser and recording that to the second H4.

Filming it with the Sony HDR SR1 with the Rode video mike and using the camera's soundtrack as the sync track.

I'll report back (and hopefully post the result somewhere if I think it will pass muster!) after Friday.

As I have learned from you guys even doing it this simply takes a fair bit of gear!

And as I have realised, this is an audio exercise more than a video one, so we are addressing that side of it first.

If I can afford it I may buy a Canon 5D Mk2 and use it as the run and gun camera, particularly as it's also a damn good still camera. But we're going to get the audio recording sorted first.

(If I'm proud of the result I'll post it and start a new thread to show off!)

One thing: the Sony HDRSR1's shoe is too small - the shoe on the Rode video mike is a standard camera shoe, and the one on the Sony is smaller. I'm sure there's an easy answer somewhere . . .

Thanks guys

Neil

Two options, there is a cold shoe adapter available for the Sony proprietary shoe, OR my preference is to use a flash bracket with a cold shoe (some have two) on it - which is also helpful when shooting handheld - provides a better grip to stabilize - I use two, like a mini fig rig...

I have bought:

...A Sennheiser Freeport transmitter and receiver...

... the Sennheiser just works, really well. And the solo track isn't crucial, just a nice-to-have, so if it breaks in the field we'll still have the main audio.


I use these a lot at Church and I also use 2 of the instrument version as radio links at events. They are reliable and very good value for money but four things to watch out for:

1. Check that your receiver power supply is OK for Europe on 230V. I can't find anything in the Freeport user manual about whether the supplied DC adaptor is self sensing like the Apple ones.

2. The Freeport bodypacks tend to come on with a bit of a bump or surge (RF and audio), so make sure it's on well before the start of the recording and not switched off until after the take

3. The battery life isn't that great - even with top grade Duracells we have to change them after every couple of hours' use in the church to be safe. Rechargeables are not recommended by Sennheiser in the user manual.

4. You get ZERO WARNING of battery failure - the first you'll know about it is a "bump! - off" noise followed a few seconds later by a "bump! - on" noise and that cycle will continue, spattering RF noise all over. Our solution was to go for a battery tester Digital Battery Tester > Maplin (http://www.maplin.co.uk/Module.aspx?ModuleNo=31841) and test EVERY mic battery (even new ones!) EVERY time before the church service, and still change them at a max 3 hours' use.

Twice before, I had to go up to a preacher in mid-sermon and (first time) change his battery or (2nd time) give him a spare bodypack. There won't be a 3rd time!

The previous VHF system used AAAs and they lasted for weeks. We now keep a log of battery use and changes.

The usual advice for fitting mics and keeping aerials (antennae) clear of course applies. Also, carry a small screwdriver with you in case you have to change the channel.

1. Check that your receiver power supply is OK for Europe on 230V. I can't find anything in the Freeport user manual about whether the supplied DC adaptor is self sensing like the Apple ones . . .

3. The battery life isn't that great - even with top grade Duracells we have to change them after every couple of hours' use in the church to be safe. Rechargeables are not recommended by Sennheiser in the user manual.

4. You get ZERO WARNING of battery failure

Thanks. I've already figured out that I'm going to rig a DC power supply for the transmitter as I won't we sure of getting any AC, 230v or anything else, and some of the gigs are out in the fields. (Any ideas guys?)

And this is a one-take trip - I'll be using a brand new deluxe battery for every outing. The cost pales into insignificance when you consider five return air fares to Europe.

Dave: Thanks for the shoe tip. I figured there would be something like that available - it seemed too obvious.

I look forward to posting a wonderful recording . . .

Neil

Sorry, I forgot another important point. The Freeports have 4 selectable frequencies, but I'm not sure what they would be on a unit supplied in your country. Here's the UK ones

4 UHF Transmission/receiving frequencies

Range A: 719 to 721 MHz
(719.15 – 719.75 – 720.15 – 720.85 MHz)
Range C : 742.5 to 744.5 MHz
(742.65 – 743.35 – 743.85 – 744.45 MHz)
Range E: 863 to 865 MHz (863.1 – 863.7 – 864.1 – 864.9 MHz)

The Frequency ranges A and C can only be used in certain areas in the EU and must be licensed with the regulating authorities. Frequency E is license-free in most EU countries (i.e. ETSI signatory countries).

There was a thread about using radiomics in France recently: http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/all-things-audio/135570-free-france.html

Sorry, I forgot another important point. The Freeports have 4 selectable frequencies, but I'm not sure what they would be on a unit supplied in your country.]

Is the issue here Complying With The Law or just making it work? While being legal is always important (!) getting the recording is more important.

Neil

You want to be sure that there isn't a tv station or other strong signal using the same frequency. The Senny systems aren't really powerful enough to cause anybody else a problem outside the building, so it's more a practical issue of making sure that you don't suffer interference to your wireless audio.