Hi,

I'm currently researching the BBC web site for some concise information about their delivery standards. Feels like I'm drowning in Policy Documents and PDFs which don't seem to give me a straight answer!

The question is this:

If I'm pitching for a documentary idea that will probably end up on BBC3 or BBC4 in the next 12 months, am I still OK to deliver on SD and specifically, if I shoot on my Z7, will this be OK?

Does anyone know please?

If I'm pitching for a documentary idea that will probably end up on BBC3 or BBC4 in the next 12 months, am I still OK to deliver on SD and specifically, if I shoot on my Z7, will this be OK?
I suspect the answer will be "it depends", I don't think 1/3" cameras are considered acceptable for general acquisition (though they may be fine for a limited percentage of B camera material) but projects may well be considered on a case by case basis. If you can make a good case for the use of a Z7 (small, lightweight and unobtrusive on a fly on the wall documentary) it may be fine, but "I've already got one and it's cheap for me" is not likely to go down so well.

You really need to ask them - an e-mail address is given at the bottom of their Guidelines document ( BBC Guidelines - Delivering Quality - Television (http://www.bbc.co.uk/guidelines/dq/contents/television.shtml) ) for the Delivering Quality Manager.

That's excellent feedback - thank you.

Yes, it would be the case that this is a obs doc and there is a need to remain discrete and quite run-and-gun. So there would be an argument for a Z7.

What would be the basic standard, do you know?

So there would be an argument for a Z7.

What would be the basic standard, do you know?
I don't know - you need to speak to them. My personal feeling is that there may be a much stronger case for using an EX1 or an EX3 than a Z7 for a number of reasons.

Bigger chips with a higher resolution, better HD codec, and will record 720p/50 native. Whatever the HD arguments are, that should produce a better 576i/25 SD donconversion than from 1080i - you're producing each SD field from an original progressive frame.(And no camcorders at this price are likely to give as high a quality internal downconversion as could be done externally).

A few months ago, the EX may have led to an unacceptable workflow for this sort of documentary, the current ability to use SDHC cards and treat them like solid state tape has changed all that.

One thing to remember that the delivery format is the most important bit, you could shoot it on a Z7 and deliver it on XDcam or digi beta.

Or shoot as HDV and them send them a full 422 10 bit HD master file.

BBC and ITV put out rubbish looking pictures on 90% their news programns but thats ok i suppose,and watching gardeners world last night which is usualy on the BBC hd channel [but not last night,]who knows why,that was awful on standard BBC1,so i fail to see why they are so choosy.

BBC and ITV put out rubbish looking pictures on 90% their news programns but thats ok i suppose,and watching gardeners world last night which is usualy on the BBC hd channel [but not last night,]who knows why,that was awful on standard BBC1,so i fail to see why they are so choosy.

Different departments, the engineering dept sets out the standards and guidelines and the programme dept does what it wants.
Its a bit like government, have lots of quangos and work groups setting out legislation and spending loads of money and then you have nothing left to apply it or make programmes.
In the case of ITV its more a headless chicken syndrome driven by advertising!

Hi,

I'm currently researching the BBC web site for some concise information about their delivery standards. Feels like I'm drowning in Policy Documents and PDFs which don't seem to give me a straight answer!

The question is this:

If I'm pitching for a documentary idea that will probably end up on BBC3 or BBC4 in the next 12 months, am I still OK to deliver on SD and specifically, if I shoot on my Z7, will this be OK?

Does anyone know please?

It will only be a concern if the BBC want a HD delivery, currently BBC3 and BBC4 are still SD so anything just for those channels should be fine shot on a Z7. If they want to use the productions on BBC HD, then you'd need to address their acquisition concerns.

They'll tell you what they want it delivered on, so I wouldn't worry about the cameras etc. until you get further down the BBC commissioning process - which is a performance in its own right.

Thank you.

I'm led to believe that the e-commissioning process is a massive legislative process in itself. I guess we could just budget for hiring whatever cameras we need!

The idea we are working on is solid, but we haven't yet had a commission. We're aiming for BBC because it fits the religious broadcasting bill.

Let's see!

Jonathan, BBC guidelines are here - BBC Guidelines - Guidelines Overview (http://www.bbc.co.uk/guidelines/)


I'm led to believe that the e-commissioning process is a massive legislative process in itself. I guess we could just budget for hiring whatever cameras we need!


That's usually how it's done. Also, most networks are not keen to work with new producers/production companies. At the very least they'll want to see proof that you can deliver what you are pitching and examples of previous, comparable work.

I guess they'll perform quite a lot of due-diligence.

I'm working with Claudio von Planta from Long Way Round and Long Way Down on this. He has plenty of cred.

I've now had this response from the quality dept of the BBC


Hi Jonathan,
I have been told that the Sony Z7 isn't an approved HD camera but it is ok for SD.

Not sure if you have seen the following site : BBC - Commissioning - Producing High-Definition TV (http://www.bbc.co.uk/commissioning/production/hd.shtml)

regards

Lynda Carter
Delivering Quality Manager
BBC Future Media & Technology
BC4 A3 M1, Broadcast Centre, Media Village
201 Wood Lane London W12 7TP

T: 020800 81971
F: 020800 82199

E: lynda.carter@bbc.co.uk

DQ Internal: http://guidelines.gateway.bbc.co.uk/dq/
DQ External: BBC Guidelines - Delivering Quality (http://www.bbc.co.uk/guidelines/dq/)

And that just shows the madness of the BBC and other broadcasters. The Z7 or S270 isnt even listed on the BBC site so how can a pen pusher comment on it?

HDV cameras produce crap SD pictures but their HD output handled properly and upscaled can produce great results.

I get really annoyed that with all the crap content wise that the BEEB and ITV and the likes chuck out that they still hide behind engineering standards that are out of the ark!

Do they never wonder why with so much availiable technology and so much talent out there that crap like a brucie fronted fake voting dancing show is prime time entertainment?

Yes there are still good productions out there but in an ever competing world for viewers surely making the programmes and making sure that content is king is more important than ever.

it is so lazy to reject any talent and potential content provider based on their standards in the most exciting times for video and film makers and to just rely on sad old formats and the dinosaur studio based programming.

is it any wonder that viewing figures are going down with the lack of imagination and progressive programming that is no longer allowed to flourish in the mainstream broadcasters.

More people watch some you tube clips but do the general public care what format they were shot on???

Sorry to Alan as I appreciate he works to test these things but there are real opportunities being missed to expand creativity in a broadcast world that has little or no budget to keep up with current cross media platforms. I could rant on loads about rejected last of the summer wine tapes coz the BBC spec said A+B=-6db and coz the duffer bbc engineer was old skool and only knew A+B=-3db. or the money wasted on the POD project when as an employee of AMS Neve when I advised that it was a wrong workflow for the beeb.
The beeb should be leading the world in producing content in all HD and HDV platforms rather than spending our money making up new test cards and trying to compete with other channels to produce the same old tired shows with diminishing audiences.
Rant over!!!

Erm... well, thanks for the background Gary!

Seriously though. It amazes me that someone can say yes to the Z7 when it isn't on the BBC web site.

Let's wait and see, I asked again for formal clarification.

Hi Gary,
Very well said... video is a funny medium, and the plethora of formats is a further thorn in our sides.
I come from a still photography background (Over 12 years with Reuters) and content was always king in stuff we bought off independents. In film days the guy brought in a roll TriX and we souped it and looked at the shots. I never once asked a photographer what he shot it on. Even if it had been a Practika... hell who cares if it was a good snap.

As you say the quality of most of the high end prosumer video gear is excellent, better than the old Beta cams I've used in the past. And as you say, shot right and treated correctly makes fabulous pictures.
Stills though has one universal standard.. Jpeg
When will the video camera manufacturers give us a universal video standard? Instead they flood the market with so many formats that NLE software writers can't even keep up.
I fear therefor it is doubtful if anything as set in its ways as Auntie will be able to do so either.
Cheers
Gareth

Careful guys.
This is starting to sound like a script from last of the summer wine.
;-)

And that just shows the madness of the BBC and other broadcasters. The Z7 or S270 isnt even listed on the BBC site so how can a pen pusher comment on it?



It's combination of various forms of compression during the production/post production/transmission chain that causes the problems. It might look good on your computer screen, but that's not to say that it won't pick up artefacts along the way.

HDV is regarded as SD by the higher end HD broadcasters. That's not to say you couldn't get productions commissioned shooting a 100% on the format because of the subject matter and shooting difficulties, but the workflow I've seen involves doing an on-line using uncompressed HD.

However, if they're giving you the budget to shoot on a better format than HDV, why bother using HDV?

Anyway, in the surreal world of the BBC, which format you're shooting on is the least of your worries.

Its all bullshit and these days there is no need for it. The truth is that the budgets just arent there to shoot on the best formats anymore, besides a master pro res 422 picture going straight to HD-cam or digi beta will be pretty robust for most uses. Most TV has been shot on DVCAM and mastered onto digibeta for years now, I have done lots of things recently and in comparison the DVcam pro stuff looks dreadful compared to my HDV material even after huge compression.

Example 1 shot on Dvcam DSR450 by a pro crew:http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=iyfowftsRu4

Example 2 shot by me on my S270 in HDV:http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=6pzI1aINAzQ

Ok just an example but it shows how bad an SD camera can look put thru the same compression for you tube, they were both uploaded at the same source.

Ive worked in pro audio and video for 28 years and in post for 18 of those.

In audio terms I started on stripe film then mag and video with no noise reduction, then dolby A. Then beta std with no noise reduction then beta sp with dolby C. Then digi beta formats and dat at 44.1 or 48k. No way would MP3 or any compressed sound be accepted and as for music CD at 44.1 was the norm, but these days all my music is on i-tunes and is perfectly acceptable.

The same goes for video and I have lived thru 2 inch, 1 inch, U-matic low and high band, beta, beta sp, digi beta, M2, D1,D2,D3,D5 avid from 1990 with 20-1 off-line to avid on-line at 5-1 and 2-1.

The broadcasters seem to think that moving the goalposts and defining quality as an engineering technical guideline has absolutely nothing to do with content and in an ever competitive market they need to be looking at their content rather than preventing creativity by imposing stupid restrictions based on pen pushers who have never made a programme in their lives.

Dont get me wrong tech quality is very important but in these exciting times this should not be the be all and end all for new formats used by skilled people and delivered on robust master formats such as XD or HD cam.

I do last of the summer wine 10 years ago and Alan Bell the director/producer told me than that he though it would be the last, its still going and shows that content is still what people are after. Its all still shot on 16mm film by the way!

I've now had this response from the quality dept of the BBC


Hi Jonathan,
I have been told that the Sony Z7 isn't an approved HD camera but it is ok for SD.

Not sure if you have seen the following site : .........
That sounds very like a stock response to me - was it made clear that there were sound production reasons for your use of a smallish camera?

If so, can they give an indication of what they would recommend you SHOULD use?

It would be very interesting if they would consider the EX cameras as preferable to the Z7 for this type of work, if a 2/3" camera was impractical - 1/2" chips as opposed to 1/3", and a better codec. The ability to now use cheap SDHC cards with the EX means that the workflow advantages that the Z7 could previously claim over the EX (tape and/or CF) are no longer significant.

Seriously though. It amazes me that someone can say yes to the Z7 when it isn't on the BBC web site.

From what I can tell, it looks like their standards were last updated in October of '06. I don't think the Z7 was around then. Nor was the EX1, EX3 and probably a whole lot of other cameras.

From what I can tell, it looks like their standards were last updated in October of '06. I don't think the Z7 was around then. Nor was the EX1, EX3 and probably a whole lot of other cameras.

The BBC HD standards were updated in Oct 2008.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/guidelines/dq/pdf/tv/hd_delivery_v01_09.pdf

This is their flagship showcase channel, so I wouldn't expect them to currently commission material shot totally HDV cameras unless these cameras allowed unique material to be shot. The specs are the same for Discovery HD and CH4 HD - I assume to allow sales and co-productions. However, that's not to say that when HD spreads through the UK regions etc., that the lower spec cameras won't be acceptable.

The XDCAM HD is acceptable above 50 mb/s, so ruling out the EX1 and EX3 in the current BBC spec.

Assuming that the camera performs according to the promises of RED, I'd expect the 2/3" Scarlet and similar cameras will fit in quite nicely into the increased demand for HD at lower budgets.

Some of the older 16mm programmes suffer due to the compression on these digital channels. Even recent Super 16 productions that look wonderful on the analogue transmitters suffer going through all the excessive data squeezing and that's just on a SD channel. I've noticed that this appears to look much worse on a LCD than on CRT television.

However, there is an element of BBC engineering department "lets get rid of film" going on: something that you also find cropping up on various on-line forums, so it's not unique to BBC engineers.

Well, just had another short email from the same lady who just states:

"Yes, I have been told that the Z7 is OK for SD".

And that's all she says...

Well at least she took your inquiry seriously, it would seem. You got a second response.

Yes. It seems like this 'pencil pusher' is trying to be helpful.

Yes. It seems like this 'pencil pusher' is trying to be helpful.

But probably thinks the Z7 is the same as the Z1 as the beeb (Alan Roberts) havent tested it yet!

Who knows - quite probably!