Hi everyone,

I recently got an M-Audio Microtrack II CF recorder to replace my Sony digital MZ-NH1 HI-MD minidisc recorder, which recently stopped working. For 3 years, I used my minidisc recorder with an Audio-Technica AT822 stereo cardioid mic (for ambience) and an Electrovoice 635 N/D-B mic (for narration) as part of my wildlife documentary work. Anyway, the Mictrotrack II is compact and has convenient controls and I like the CF capabilities, but its sound quality on my mics is inferior to what I got from my minidisc recorder when using the PCM linear setting. Sound from the T-mic the Microtrack II came with actually sounded pretty good, but it doesn’t fit my purposes.

So, for $500 or under, are there any recorders that are CF compatible, use rechargeable batteries, and have sound quality equal to that of the MZ-NH1? In case this seems familiar, I asked similar questions here (http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/all-things-audio/137543-updating-duplicating-minidisc-recorder-at822-mic-setup.html). Anyway, I looked up the recorders mentioned in the other thread, but even a lot of the expensive ones used AA batteries, which is something I want to avoid. Sometimes, I set up my mic in the woods and just leave it there for a few hours, which can drain batteries fast, but can produce interesting sounds of things like Canada geese fighting or wood ducks landing. Some of these sounds can only be captured well when no one is around.

I’m now leaning to just getting another minidisc recorder because I know that’s a sure way to get the sound quality I’m looking for. Still, I’m not fond of the Sonicstage software and word is that minidisc recorders are going obsolete. It seems like minidisc is on its way out and most CF recorders aren’t quite developed enough to have sound quality equivalent to minidisc recorders and still have their price range. I’ve got projects I need to finalize my narration on and need to get a new recorder soon.

Anyway, I’ve checked out a broad swath of the CF recorder market, so my guess is that I’m out of luck, but I’m hoping maybe I missed something important. Any thoughts would be appreciated. Thanks a bunch.

Regards,
Tristan Howard

Not sure what your aversion to AA batteries is, but I probably wouldn't make that an important part of the decision making process. Why not just buy some high quality AA rechargeables?

In many ways, I'd rather have AAs becasue I can always get them no matter where I am.

Have you looked at the Sony D-50? I've run it for hours on its AA cells - certainly 3 or 4 hours was no probem. I've been quite happy with it and the quality of the built-in mics is quite amazing at its price point. I've done side-by-side comparison with a pair of Schoeps mics and a Sound Devices recorder, and while the Schoeps/Sound Devices combo sounds better, the Sony sounded quite good. At 1/15th the price of the Schoeps/SD set up I think it's a heck of a price performer.

Paul, you have a good point on the AA batteries. I've been stuck in the mindset of viewing them as disposable and thus a poor investment, but after some web surfing, I now know that rechargeable AAs and chargers are easy to find. With all my video and photo work, I've been used to mainly lithium ion rechargeable batteries. Also, as you implied, AAs are easy to find and can easily be carried along for recording expeditions to remote locations. Anyway, the AA thing is no longer an important part of my decision process.

Jim, I re-reviewed the specifications of many card-based recorders and basically settled on the Olympus LS-10 or Sony PCM-D50 as my best options. Both seem sturdy with good sound quality and there were many great reviews for the PCM-D50. Still, most of what I read about the PCM-D50 relates to its built-in mics. If the built-in mics pick up sound better than my AT822 or Electrovoice, I guess that would be good. Still, I'm curious if you or anyone reading this has much experience using the PCM-D50 with an external mic attached via a cable. I was surprised at how poorly the Microtrack II handled my external mics. If anyone knows how the PCM-D50 works with an AT822, that would especially interest me. I want to get a high sensitivity response, so I can pick up bird sounds well. I remember on my minidisc recorder, I was able to change the mic sensitivity to high, but after skimming the PDF of the PCM-D50 manual, I didn't see a mention of adjusting mic sensitivity. Also, does the PCM-D50 automatically adjust settings well for varied intensities and such? My minidisc recorder did (or at least I think it did; I know I didn't have to constantly push a button to re-adjust levels; I could just leave the mic alone & it did a good job). The apparently mandatory manual level adjustment on the Microtrack II really bothered me.

Anyhow, thanks for all your input.

-Tristan

I seem to remember that the Sony worked well with my lav, but all my "real" mics are XLR so it's hard for me to make any test that would be relevant. I'll check out the lav again to be sure I'm not remembering something that didn't happen (not sure which aging problem is worse - forgetting what happened or remembering what didn't!)

Re rechargeable batteries look at the website of an outfit called Maha (like Yamaha without the first two letters) They make a charging system for the AA rechargeables that is really quie sophisticated - it even has a two day conditioning cycle that you use the first time you charge a new battery. Far better than anything I've seen at Radio Shack.

I've noticed that when I use the rechargeables in my SD302 even a just charged battery seems to show a bit lower reading than a regular battery. But I still get completely useful recording times with the rechargeables.

Jim, I re-reviewed the specifications of many card-based recorders and basically settled on the Olympus LS-10 or Sony PCM-D50 as my best options. Both seem sturdy with good sound quality and there were many great reviews for the PCM-D50. Still, most of what I read about the PCM-D50 relates to its built-in mics.

The D-50 onboard mics are very good IMO. The problem for outdoor use is that they are extremely wind sensitive. Any wind whatsoever is too much. The Sony factory wind muff is okay but certainly not suitable for serious work. Outdoors, you have to have an external mic setup. Indoors or in the right conditions, the onboards give excellent stereo results.


If the built-in mics pick up sound better than my AT822 or Electrovoice, I guess that would be good. Still, I'm curious if you or anyone reading this has much experience using the PCM-D50 with an external mic attached via a cable. I was surprised at how poorly the Microtrack II handled my external mics. If anyone knows how the PCM-D50 works with an AT822, that would especially interest me. I want to get a high sensitivity response, so I can pick up bird sounds well.

I have used the D-50 with my wireless systems and a few exterrnal mics. The D-50 gives you exactly what any mic connected to it gives it as far as I can tell, no coloration, no discernable noise.


I remember on my minidisc recorder, I was able to change the mic sensitivity to high, but after skimming the PDF of the PCM-D50 manual, I didn't see a mention of adjusting mic sensitivity. Also, does the PCM-D50 automatically adjust settings well for varied intensities and such?

The D-50 is a pro grade recorder and has the same adjustments common to all of them. You can set up the D-50 for any type of input or level on the mini connection.

Because the D-50 is a pro grade recorder, there is no auto level control or AGC. There is a very effective limiter among many other controls.

My minidisc recorder did (or at least I think it did; I know I didn't have to constantly push a button to re-adjust levels; I could just leave the mic alone & it did a good job). The apparently mandatory manual level adjustment on the Microtrack II really bothered me.

The old Sony MZ-NH1 was a walkman like entertainment device with consumer friendly controls. The D-50 is a much more advanced recording device.

Jim, thanks for the quick reply. I did a web search and based on a review and a forum comment, it looks like people have had success using the PCM-D50 with the AT822. Also, I checked out the Maha battery website and it looks like high quality stuff, but I think I’ll go with the Canon CBK4-300 AA Battery and Charger Kit because it’s a bit cheaper and I can get it from the same place where I get most of my gear.

Jeff, thanks for answering my questions. It looks like the PCM-50 is the recorder for me. Thanks again to everyone for their input.

Hi Tristan,
If you need hours of recording, you might want to consider a PSC Powerstation?
Power Station (http://www.professionalsound.com/specs/pwr_sta.htm)

Alternatively, you could look at consumer battery packs.
I haven't had much experience with them though, a quick search on google turned up this
http://www.digitalcamerabattery.com/index.htm
http://www.bixnet.com/misihicabapa.html
http://www.batterygeek.net/
I'm sure there are lots more brands. Hope the others can chime in, if you've used these battery packs.

The Sony D-50 is really easy on batteries. I usually change mine just for safety sake, not because they are down.

It can easily record for 10+ hours on a set of alkalines, probably a lot longer. If it is supplying microphone power, Im not really sure how long they last.

With with a good set of rechargeables of lithiums, it would probably go for 15 to 20 hours. That would be a lot of big files.

The D50 doesn't seem to allow regular XLR mics to be connected to it. This unit seems meant to be best used with its own mics.

What is the problem with the Microtrack? Do you have the original or a II (with limiter)?

Does the RE50 not put out a strong enough signal? The Audio Technica should be fine. How are you connecting the mics?

Hi,
The PCM D50 does allow xlr mics with the Sony adapter.
Sony XLR-1 XLR Adapter for PCM-D1 / PCM-D50 digital recorders (http://www.minidisco.com/Sony-XLR-1)

You might look at the Marantz PM660, which uses cf cards and has 2 xlr inputs. It is sometimes criticized for preamp hiss --- it's there, if you are listening real hard, but easy to remove in post. But, this outfit does modifications that claim to replace the preamps with low noise high fi jobs for a reasonable price....disclaimer: I haven't done business with them, just filed this away for a rainy day: PMD-660 Modifications (http://www.oade.com/digital_recorders/hard_disc_recorders/PMD-660MODS.html)

Battle Vaughan/miamiherald.com video team

You might look at the Marantz PM660, which uses cf cards and has 2 xlr inputs. It is sometimes criticized for preamp hiss --- it's there, if you are listening real hard, but easy to remove in post. But, this outfit does modifications that claim to replace the preamps with low noise high fi jobs for a reasonable price....disclaimer: I haven't done business with them, just filed this away for a rainy day: PMD-660 Modifications (http://www.oade.com/digital_recorders/hard_disc_recorders/PMD-660MODS.html)


Oade Brothers are well know among people doing tasks like wild animal audio and other requirements that need potability and a high S/N. (This also includes legal and illegal concert recording). I've never bought from them, but they're not a new business or a "fly by night".
Everyone who buys any kind of modded electronic seems to think it's the greatest device ever, so I cant answer the question "is it worth it?"

I do like their microphone recommendations.

The Marantz 661 should be available soon. Same basic design as the Marantz PM660 but a little smaller, better battery economy, OLED display, SD cards, 24 bit, among other updates.
Hopefully Ty Ford will get one soon to evaluate.
D-Mpro.com is the US distributer.

Jack, I've got the Microtrack II. My biggest problem is that the sound from my external mics simply isn't picked up well. There's a lot of static and when I increase the levels to increase the volume of what's picked up while recording, the static gets worse. My old minidisc recorder did a much better job with my external mics. Still, I think my Microtrack II doesn't have any anomalies. It just doesn't work well with my mics. I've actually got it posted on the classifieds here at dvinfo.net.

Jack, I've got the Microtrack II. My biggest problem is that the sound from my external mics simply isn't picked up well. There's a lot of static and when I increase the levels to increase the volume of what's picked up while recording, the static gets worse. My old minidisc recorder did a much better job with my external mics. Still, I think my Microtrack II doesn't have any anomalies. It just doesn't work well with my mics. I've actually got it posted on the classifieds here at dvinfo.net.

I use all kinds of mics, from re50, Tram TR50, various AT mics, and they all sound fine.

How are you connecting the mics. For an balanced XLR mic you need an XLR to 1/4" balanced plug (same as a stereo plug). Is that what you are using?

If you have the right adapters and cable, there may be something wrong with your Microtrack, such as a loose connection on the connector, a bad cable, or something like that.

The Microtrack gives you balanced input for standard mics, and you shouldn't get any static at all.

If you use the 1/8" powered mini-jack you need the right kind of mic and plug. (This is the same input that would be on most consumer camcorders.)

Using the input volume controls on the Micgrotrack (the switch on the side, the setting in the menu--pad or no pad--and the volume rocker buttons on the front) should give you good levels to record.

You may still want a different recorder, but perhaps you could have someone else who uses the Microtrack take a look at it and the way you are connecting your mics.

The advantages of the microtrack are, number 1, it's small size (though this is only important for some uses), balanced mic input, phantom power (up to about 32v), 1/8" powered input, high capacity removable media (such as a Flash Drive), 24 bit recording, limiters (on the II model), various outputs, etc.

In any case, the problem you describe should be able to be fixed.

Tristan,

I just read your ad for the recorder and noticed you are using the 10-foot (3m) cable to connect the AT822.

This may not be correct. Have you tried the other cable that comes with the mic that ends in a singls 1/8" stereo plug. Try this cable and plug it into the 1/8" input jack on top. This should work, though you have to change the input setting in the menu.

According to the Microtrack manual if you input an unbalanced single to the 1/4" jacks, it should be line line level.

If you use the 1/4" jacks for a microphone, it needs to be a balanced output mic, such as the RE50 (but not the AT822 Stereo, which is unbalanced).

To connect the RE50 you need an XLR to TRS Plug and plug it into one of the 1/4" jacks on top of the Microtrack. This is a mono-balanced connection.

On the AT822, the stereo unbalanced output should go into the 1/8" input on the microtrack.

Even if it works properly with these connections, you may still want a different recorder.

Anyone familar with the Edirol R-09HR by Roland?

Thanks, AL

I have the Edirol R-09HR and the Fostex FR-2LE.
I never consider Sony in a purchase. It's personal, I don't like Sony.
R-09HR sounds very good, has good mic preamp.. although 1/8 mini.
Can power lavalier mics like EMW... wired for
Senn G2.. can put the lav on actor and turn recorder on, put recorder in pocket.
(I don't need no Zaxcom)
Line input very good. Runs on 2 AA rechargables for 8 hours recording.
Will record 2 GB file and start a new file seamlessly, no pop or glitch when
putting the files together.
Menu extremely easy to use, you really don't need to read the manual! but you will.
This is the third generation for this recorder, and the bugs have been worked out.
Best to use class 6 SDHC card. Chokes after about 4 GB recording 96K/24B.
48K/24 bit fine, even with class 4 SDHC card like Sandisk Ultra II.

FR-2LE very good also, stops recording after 2 or 4GB file.
You need to format CF card in the sample rate and bit depth you want to record.
Runs 10 hours on Tamiya hobby battery.
Larger and heavier.

The Marantz 661 should be available soon. Same basic design as the Marantz PM660 but a little smaller, better battery economy, OLED display, SD cards, 24 bit, among other updates.
Hopefully Ty Ford will get one soon to evaluate.
D-Mpro.com is the US distributer.

Thanks for the heads-up, Rick. I have a few PMD660's (one with Oade mod). Here's the specs on the 661:

http://www.digiverse.co.uk/Downloads/PMD661.pdf

Regards, Michael

Hsien, thanks for the links about power stations and battery packs. While I think they’re a bit too much for my current needs, it’s nice to know such powerful, portable power sources exist.

Jeff, thanks for the reassuring info on PCM-D50 battery life.

Jack, thanks for the large amount of info. I originally always connected my mics with a 10-foot cable that has a 3-pin XLRF-type connector at the microphone end and a 1/8 inch (3.5 mm) stereo mini plug at the output end. With my minidisc recorder, this cable gave me great sound on with my AT-822 (not the case with the microtrack). Based on your suggestion, I tried the 1.7-foot 1/8 inch input plug cable that came with my mic. It picked up better sound than my 10-foot cable with the 1/8 inch plug. I wonder why my 10-foot 1/8 inch plug cable is such a problem for the microtrack? Anyway, I also tried the 10-foot cable (XLRF-type connector at microphone end with two ¼ inch plug adapters at output end) that came with the AT-822 and it seemed to work even better than my 1.7-foot cable. I used the ¼ inch TRS setting for recording with the 10-foot cable and used both plugs. Still, I thought the big, ¼ inch sockets were only for balanced mics. The AT-822 is unbalanced so it seems odd that it would come with two ¼ inch plugs. Still, those are just adapters and can unplug to reveal two 1/8 inch plugs. I’ve yet to try recording mono with a single 1/8 inch plug on the 10-foot cable that came with the At-822.

I played a narration recording that I made with the Microtrack II and then played identical narration recorded with my minidisc recorder. The Microtrack II didn’t sound bad, but there was still more static than I got from my minidisc recorder. I processed both pieces of narration with identical procedures in Sony Soundforge 7.0.

Anyway, I ordered a PCM-50 back in December, so hopefully that comes soon. Thanks again to everyone for all your input. Take care.

You wont be sorry with the Sony. It really is a great piece of kit. I've really not found anything about it I don't like (nearly.)

Tristan,

I see that you are no longer selling the Microtrack (dang). I'm wondering, how does the sound quality compare to what you were used to with the minidisc recorder, now that you've improved the cables.

Also, does the headphone monitoring work properly? I want to ensure that what-you-hear-is-what-you-get (WYHIWYG) when recording in the field.

Thanks!

I just want to add that I don't like rechargeable AA batteries!! They have never been reliable in my experience. I now buy AA batteries in bulk at 60% less than retail value, that works great for me, I put in a fresh batch on every job and don't run the risk of the batteries dying on me in a critical situation. I don't understand why we don't have Lithium-Ion rechargeable AA's.

Dear Nicholas,

I use Energizer rechargables and find them reliable, but with rechargables it pays to take some extra precautions.

I use Energizer chargers.

First, charge them just before the shoot. This could be overnight, or the same day for a night shoot. NiMH batteries lose their charge over a fairly short time.

Take them out of the charger soon when the charge cycle completes. If left in a charger, you are draining the charge from the battery.

Use a digital voltmeter to check each battery. Sort them into groups of similar voltages. The ones with the higher voltage are best.

If your equipment uses more than one battery, one weak battery may cause problems. It is a little extra work, but I find it comforting to check each battery before a shoot.

I find that, within a few hours of them being charged, the better ones are around 1.40 Volts or better. Others, possibly much older ones are around 1.2 to 1.3 volts.

Keep a lot of them on hand. During breaks in shooting, I check the battery levels, as shown in my audio gear. If they are half empty, I exchange them for new ones.

I turn off the gear if we will not be using it for 30 minutes or so.

I always take my chargers on the set and recharge the ones that I used.

With these steps, I have never had one fail, or quit unexpectedly.

John,

I'm sorry to get back to you so late. I've been busy with college and promoting a new wildlife film. Even with the 1/4" plug cables, the Microtrack II (with the record level set in the middle at 5 marks to the right) still doesn't pick up sounds as well as my minidisc recorder. Nevertheless, while doing experimental recordings when trying new cables with my Microtrack, I accidentally recorded some sounds with the recorder set at the wrong setting to correspond with an attached mic (for example recording with a 1/8" plug on the 1/4" TRS setting). There's a chance that may have messed up my Microtrack, though I'm not sure. A few weeks ago, I finally got my minidisc recorder to work again after I unjammed a diskette. I attached files of 3 test recordings where I set my mics up on a stand and recorded a few seconds of audio (from one of my films) coming out of my computer's speakers.

The minidisc file was recorded with an 1/8" stereo mini plug cable hooked to the AT822.
The Microtrack file was recorded with 1/4" cables hooked up to the AT822.
The T-mic came with the Microtrack and plugged directly into it with a 1/8" mini plug.

Out of my samples, the Microtrack hooked to the AT822 came out the faintest, the Microtrack with the T-mic sounded better, and the minidisc recorder with the AT822 came out the loudest. I've since tried the Sony PCM-D50 and it picks up sounds with much more sensitivity than all my test recordings.

As for headphone monitoring with the Microtrack, it seems to work fairly well. Still, I haven't done enough monitoring and post-recording file analyzing to give a super informed opinion. Sometimes, it was hard for me to tell what I was getting with my headphones, because I could also hear my live surrounding sounds fairly well.

I look at devices that use AA (or any other standard size) batteries as a big plus. With proprietary batteries you end up paying a premium because it's a captive market. Furthermore if the maker of the device goes belly up or stops supporting the device you're sol. Rechargeable AAs can be found anywhere (Radio Shack, Harbor Freight, etc.) and if you can't find them you likely can find alkaline that will do in a pinch. Regarding flash memory digital recorders, I've been using the Edirol R09 series, first the 48k then the 96k, for some time now and I've been very pleased with the sound -- though, in fairness, I'm no musician.

I agree. With AA you have the choice of using various AA rechargeables if you wish, and in any case you always have the option of using AA primaries, which can literally be bought just about anywhere.