I am brand new to DV. I just bought a Canon HG20 and am looking to record myself playing guitar for an instructional video. The room is 12x12 with 9' ceiling. Since I will be recording for long stretches of time, I don't want overpowering lights that will noticeably raise the room temp. Anyway, I was hoping someone could recommend some products suitable for my project.

thanks,

brian

Should be pretty simple. What's your budget? Fluorescent is going to get it done but now it's just a matter of the right one for your budget and needs.

My budget is around $450 ish. Not sure if I really need 3 lights. What do you think? Is the lit from behind look really that critical? I mean I do want decent results, but just trying to figure out minimal setup to get good results.

thanks,

brian

You might start with a fluorescent softbox, like the one from coollights.biz that uses a single big fluorescent bulb, or one of the multi-bulb units from skaeser.com. I have one of the latter with six 85 watt daylight bulbs. A bit of a pain to set up, but if you don't have to tear it down and move a lot, it's nice. An even, broad soft light. Put it at about a 3/4 angle and if you need fill on the other side, try propping up a piece of 4x8' white foamcore (about 20 bucks from an art supply house), or anything white. Keep it simple at first and see what you're getting. Then spend more money if necessary.

Is the lit from behind look really that critical?

In my opinion, the separation from the background that back or "rim" lighting gives you is more important than using a fixture for fill. If you only have two lights, use one for key, a bounce card (such as the previously mentioned foamcore) and a smaller wattage open face (even one of those silver clamp lights from the hardware store if budget requires it) for backlight.

Ok, this is starting to sound doable. I want to make sure I am understanding. Here is a diagram of my room and how I envision things being placed:

http://www.guitar-dreams.com/misc/video.jpg

Is that about right? (Just hit Save As if that link doesn't work)

Any recommendations on the small wattage open face (i.e. product from particular website or ebay)? About how many watts? For the key, sounds like fluorescent softbox is the way to go - what wattage should I get for that?

thanks a ton,

brian

I'd have to strongly suggest some sort of back light. Here's one suggestion that could help separate you from your background. Let's say you're going to shoot with dark(or unlit)surroundings. Try taking a small light of some sort, and place it under the chair you'll be sitting in. Then take a piece of cardboard and cut holes or shapes into it. Any pattern will do, as long as it looks good and allows some light to pass through. Then find a way to set it up in front of the light(not too close otherwise it will start to singe), experimenting with distance from the light itself. You will find that this projects a pattern onto the wall behind where you are sitting, and some of that should bounce back to light you as well. You would still use your key and fill light(or bounce the light off of a white sheet or piece of bristol board), but it makes for a great effect. You can also try using coloured gels attached to the cardboard(not the light or you'll melt it!) to change the effect.

You can get away with almost any kind of inexpensive directional light unit if you bounce if off something and make it indirectional or softly directional...amateur portrait lights (think Smith-Victor), work lights from Home Depot with 3200K replacement lamps, cheap floodlights...if you bounce them off umbrellas, foam core, the ceiling (assuming it's white), etc.

If the light is soft, directional and not colored by bouncing off an off-color reflector (not red velvet walls, for example!) --AND if softer but directional light is appropriate for your piece...you can get off cheap. Where lights get expensive is where you need direct light and then you need fixtures that give you the quality you need -- fresnels, softboxes, whatever. Thumbs up on the backlight, however. It gives separation and third-dimension to the image. If you want to buy a ready-assembled kit, look at the Lowell kits that include a Rifa (softbox, comes in various sizes) and a Pro-Light (small quasi-fresnel). You can use the Rifa direct or bounced, and the Pro-light give a good back light, accent light, or you can bounce it off a small umbrella for fill. We do a lot of interview stuff with just these two lights in our work, and most of our folks find the two-light kit adequate for most of what we do. / Battle Vaughan/miamiherald.com video team

When you talk about bouncing, do you mean use a directional light as the key (in my case I am leaning toasrds fluorescent) and then accomplish the fill by bouncing?

Also, I am trying to figure out how to do the back lighting. I will be sitting in front of a guitar amp which in turn is in front of a wall. The guitar amp is taller than me when I am sitting. How high above my head should the backlight be? If it is behind me at an angle would that be odd?

thanks!

brian

Disclaimer: I do news and feature interviews for a news site, so natural looking light --as opposed to theatrical or dramatic light, which you might want ---are what I'm usually after.
I often use single broad source -- sometimes use my Rifa66 direct for more contrast, but often take the front diffuser off and bounce it off light-colored walls and ceilings, or bounce a Lowell v-light the same way, to make the room lighting look as natural as possible.

For studio interviews I use a large single soft source --- softbox, umbrella, whatever, between 45 degrees and 90 degrees to the subject, with a backlight that is what the portrait photograpers call a "kicker"---to the rear, above the subject and off to one side so there is a highlight drawn in the hair and down the back side of the face. It is usually about half again brighter than the key light. Usually, there is no fill when using very broad or bounced sources, because none is needed, and because it would tend to flatten the light ratios to the point that the sense of shape or 3-dimensionality is lost.

Resist the urge to over-light. This is a problem with direct lighting, because you get highlights and shadows that have to be managed and that call more attention to the lighting than the subject. You got to have key light then fill light to modify the key light and on and on..... The advantage to what I'm saying here is: natural looking light, easy to reproduce technically because it seldom gets out of the dynamic range of your camera, quick and simple to set up and flexible if the subject moves around. Hope this is some help, my two cents, I'm sure there are as many approaches as there are videographers...B Vaughan

Actually, I am not after a theatrical look so I am very interested in your approach. Would I get similar results using a fluorescent softbox?

I am still a little confused about the bouncing geometry. Is your key light pointed at the subject and in addition you have reflectors placed or do you sometimes not point the key at the subject and instead point at a reflector which then bounces on the subject to act as key? For some reason I thought what you were getting at before was that the key points at the subject and then a reflector at the same time picks up light from the key and acts as a fill.

I really appreciate your patience. I feel like I am pretty damn close to understanding exactly what you are envisioning.

thanks,

brian

Light provides luminance based on the distance it's travelled (the photons emitted spread out like a shotgun blast and fewer of them hit the subject the farther away their point of emission is from the destination [the subject + the distance to the lens])

Every non-darkening reflection (white for the purposes of this conversation) simply increases the distance from source to lens. It also becomes the new "light emission source" as far as the camera lens is concerned.

The "Inverse Square Law" states that as the distance from source to destination doubles, the luminance provided quarters... inversely, if you halve the distance, the illumination quadruples.

Using a single light source knowing these pieces of data allows you to point your key light at any reflective surface to get it to your subject (the angle at which the light hits the surface is the same as the angle at which it will leave the surface) giving a softer light as the bounce surface now becomes the new light emission source... (Larger light sources in relation to the subject gives softer light on the subject - small light sources in relation...i.e. the sun and moon...give hard shadows to the light).

By catching the first light on a wall as bounce, you can bounce directly at the subject creating a Key... you can then bounce that light spilling around your subject back at the opposite side off the subject to act as fill... since the light has travelled farther, it will be less intense. I've seen tutorials online that have you start with the hair light up and behind, bounce that for key with a reflector (less diffusion of the light) and bounce with a white card (more diffusion of the light - so less leight hitting subject) to fill. This would give a single light source, 3 point lighting scheme.

Ok, so the key is being accomplished via an angled bounce as well as the fill, both using a separate reflector. If I use a key light softbox would that weaken the light enough so that pointing the key right at the subject would be a good approach?

I have searched for online tutorials but haven't found good ones dealing with bouncing methods. If you could point me the tutorial you refer to that would be great.

thanks,

brian

I'd have to strongly suggest some sort of back light.

====

You will find that this projects a pattern onto the wall behind where you are sitting, and some of that should bounce back to light you as well

Matt, what you are describing here is a backGROUND light and should be referred to as one instead of as a back light (also known as a hairlight) which projects onto the back of the subject for foreground to background separation. And the pattern etched device, for those that care, is called a cukaloris or "cookie".

[QUOTE=Brian Huether;987912If I use a key light softbox would that weaken the light enough so that pointing the key right at the subject would be a good approach?[/QUOTE]

Softboxes are to be used CLOSE to the subject and directly. Don't use a softbox intentionally to bounce.

I started a spin off of this thread on the lighting forum here (hadn't noticed it before).

The thread is

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/photon-management/140760-beginner-lighting-questions.html

In that thread I address somerthing I had totally forgotten about here: the color scheme of the room! I am starting to fear that my placing of sound deadening fabrics on the walls might cast problematic lighting.

thanks,

brian

Ok, so the key is being accomplished via an angled bounce as well as the fill, both using a separate reflector. If I use a key light softbox would that weaken the light enough so that pointing the key right at the subject would be a good approach?

I have searched for online tutorials but haven't found good ones dealing with bouncing methods. If you could point me the tutorial you refer to that would be great.

thanks,

brian

The key is accomplished however you end up doing it... in my example, yes both key and fill are done with angled bounce. I would only do this if I only had one light to work with and a small room that needed illumination as well as lighting my subject. The bounce would catch the shotgun "cone of light" on the way and make that large spot on the wall the new light source (but dimmer than the original due to the distance travelled).

Having this new light source be larger in relation to the subject, we get a soft light from it (remember all light sizes are relative to the subject: small and/or far away = hard light, large and close to the subject = soft light ... even a 5 foot wide light if far enough away will be a hard light ... the sun is really big, but casts hard light due to its distance).

As we are generally looking for soft light on the Key side of the subject (unless you want a hard light for emotional/stylistic reasons), we need to use a large light. If you have a softbox, use that directly... otherwise, bounce using either the wall or a grip/grip stand with a bounce card.

Do you have any scenes from existing movies in mind stylistically when picturing this shot? Could you find framegrabs from it (or even just point us toward a timecode in the movie). We can pick apart the lighting used in it and see if we can fit it into your existing location (pictures of the location would help as well to see the space we have to work with... as would a list of the current lighting fixtures you have to work with).

There is science behind this stuff, but that's not what makes it look good. The art of years of experimentation and failure are what makes it look good. Even painters had to deal with these same issues hundreds of years ago. Hit the art museums/galleries and look at how they use light in the paintings. Watch tons of films with the pause button warmed up, stop on a scene that strikes you as well lit, well composed, well done:

Look at the light and shadow in the scene to figure out where they've placed lights... the shadows always fall away from a lighting fixture.

Look in the eyes to find the light sources as well... a semi reflective sphere at the front of the subject's face reflects the lights so you can place them spatially to deconstruct the scene.

This is a visual medium... a picture is worth a thousand words (which is probably why I type so much ;) ). Here's a link to some tests we did with light proximity and diffusion proximity: Y.A.F.I.:Underground Media (http://www.yafiunderground.com/index.php?page=lighting_distances)

I was just on youtube looking at a bunch of instructional guitar DVD clips. Here are some styles I wouldn't mind emulating:

I like this for the general approach:

YouTube - Guitar Lesson - Playing the Dorian Mode Over the Blues (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ydLP78TcTG8&feature=related)

I like background with the fabric folds. I would have my amp behind me in such a shot. Where can one find those sorts of backdrops?

ALso, I like the approach where the background is dark and the player appears to materialize in the middle of the shot. That would be cool to know how to do! Something like this:

YouTube - John Petrucci Guitar solo (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eqeH9R1Qx3o)
YouTube - Art of Acoustic Blues Guitar - Early Roots Lesson 1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6IKaP-d-Nrs)

I could maybe have the intro to the video filmed like that and then for the remainder switch to the backdrop style.

I don't have any lighting gear so I would have to buy everything.

Here are some photos of thew room:

http://www.guitar-dreams.com/video.php

Any help in setting up using a flo light, reflectors and backlight is greatly appreciated!

thanks,

brian

Forgive me, but the room's a mess - you've got so many different colours the background is going to be so distracting. What colour is the ceiling? It's common here in the UK to have white matt ceilings, even if we have coloured walls, and they are really useful for bouncing light off to soften it. The pinky/red material is quite shiny, so I fear unless you really know what you're doing it's going to look very odd. These wall colours will also introduce colour shifts to the light, making your face and any white surfaces tinted which may look weird.

I suggest what you do is set the camera up with a monitor so you can see the results and then start with a key light, something a bit softer to fill in the shadows on the other side of the camera, and then experiment with somekind of background light to make you stand out from the background - as the room's farly small, it might also light your back and act as a kind of backlight too? Don't forget that earlier you menationed the shots would be longish. I'd try to change that if you can, putting in break points where you can offer the viewer a different camera angle - or it will be really, really boring and people will start to look at the clutter in the room, not what you're showing them how to do. That's the big snag with youtube tutorials - they are mind numbingly dull because on real TV we never see shots that last more than a few second, let alone minutes and minutes!

I like background with the fabric folds. I would have my amp behind me in such a shot. Where can one find those sorts of backdrops?

Cheap DIY (Homemade) Muslin Photography Background | DIYPhotography.net (http://www.diyphotography.net/homestudio/chaep-diy-muslin-photography-background)
They have a project for a stand there as well.

ALso, I like the approach where the background is dark and the player appears to materialize in the middle of the shot. That would be cool to know how to do! Something like this:

I could maybe have the intro to the video filmed like that and then for the remainder switch to the backdrop style.

For that shot, if you have a smooth black backdrop (not draped like the other one), leaving the background unlit and lighting the subject brighter will force you to close down the exposure (or ND filter) on the camera which will push the unlit parts darker.

I don't have any lighting gear so I would have to buy everything.

You can get away with work lights on 6'-7' stands. They don't take much room, but they're REALLY hot, of course my Smith-Victor 500W lights are really hot too. You can build barndoors for them to control the light spill on the background as well ( http://www.coollights.biz/wordpress/archives/21 )

Here are some photos of thew room

Couldn't see any of the photos/video.

Any help in setting up using a flo light, reflectors and backlight is greatly appreciated

Playing around will get you the best answers. You can ask a thousand questions until you think you understand, or go place a single light in place and go "AHHH, I GET IT NOW!" Try out the things that have been recommended here keeping in mind the physics bits I've hinted at in earlier posts (distance makes light dimmer and harder, light emits in a cone no matter what you do to it [sometimes it just has shadows forced into the spray of photons]) and reflecting makes the new surface the new light source with whatever properties it has... you can even color the light this way). You'll gain much more knowledge faster with an hour of playing with the lights than you would asking questions for a month. It'll also bring up new questions that are more focussed questions. Start out with a single 500-1000w work light on a tallish stand and play for an hour, then see what questions you have. Don't forget to hit record on your camera so you can look at the results later... I also like to either write down the changes I'm making and record them with the scene in camera, or speak them to the camera so I can remember what the specifics were a month afterwards when I desperately want to recreate that one cool shot I got in a test.

I rearranged the room. Here is what the camera sees now:

http://www.guitar-dreams.com/misc/video/IMG_0101.jpg

I just tested that link and it worked. You might try copying and pasting it into a browser.

I plan on getting a fairly dark backdrop to go behind everything (dark blue?). And I plan on covering the floor with some black fabric to get rid of the cluttered floor look. And I am getting some fabric at an art store to better cover the desk (I won't be using that shiny blue material).

I guess you could say the ceiling is a textured, white, matted ceiling.

thanks,

brian

You've received some well-expessed messages since our last exchange, but let me sort out what I was saying: Use a soft (broad) light source. The cheap way to accomplish this is to bounce the light from a small, hard source (read: cheap, harsh photo light) off something that will make it a large, soft source. If you have the bucks, you can buy a large, soft source (softbox, Rifa light, fluorescent bank, etc) and achieve much the same thing. Someone else proposed using reflectors (foamcore) to catch some of the key light and use that as fill. Fine if you need fill, it works very well. I'm usually not using fill with a softbox (or light bounced off a wall to achieve much the same effect) because the light bouncing around the room is usually enough to modify the contrast, which is the purpose of fill.

As someone pointed out, there is BACK light (portrait photographers call it hair light, it is light pointed at the back of the subject to separate them from the background and BACKGROUND light, which is illumination behind the subject to bring out detail in what is behind them or to provide a splash of contrast to add visual interest.

Because our job is pretty much on-the-run we perforce must keep things simple to meet deadlines. Thus we have adapted the 60-Minutes style of interview light --- soft source to the side and hairlight --- or, if it's not a closeup interview but in a room setting, we bounce whatever light we have off a ceiling, umbrella, white wall, etc to provide an acceptable overall illumination that looks natural. Hope this clears up any confusion, best wishes! Let me know if I can explain this better somehow, happy to help. /Battle Vaughan/miamiherald.com video team

I am about to buy the CoolLights single bulb softbox kit. But I am not sure about the back light. How do you guys normally position it so it isn't in the shot? With big bulky booms or wall mounted? I want to be able to experiment with placement so I don't want to have to mount, unmount, remount, etc...

thanks,

brian

I am about to buy the CoolLights single bulb softbox kit. But I am not sure about the back light. How do you guys normally position it so it isn't in the shot? With big bulky booms or wall mounted? I want to be able to experiment with placement so I don't want to have to mount, unmount, remount, etc...

thanks,

brian

C-Stand. You should probably own a few.

Is it that critical that you shoot in this particular room? If you are truly concerned about the visual results, you could do a whole lot better as the best you can achieve in this space is simply shooting against a blank wall or backdrop. Shooting virtually anything in a room this small is a big challenge as all the gear is backed up against the walls. It may be "easier" to shoot in the room that you already use, but if you are this concerned with how to light it, you may want to invest some of that energy into looking around for another space you can use for your shoot that is more visually arresting to begin with.

Unfortunately I really am stuck with this room. Otherwise I would have to move my audio/guitar gear which would screw up my audio work. Basically, I just want a decently lit scene. A plain backdrop ios ok. My target audience mainly want to see flashy guitar playing but I want to go above and beyond and have it appear decent as well.

I researched C stands and I don't quite understand how they would enable me to place the light out of camera's view.

thanks,

brian

I researched C stands and I don't quite understand how they would enable me to place the light out of camera's view.

thanks,

brian

It's a lot more obvious when you have one in front of you, but essentially, you place the base of the stand off to the side, extend the arm, and place the lighting fixture on the end. Position as necessary, and shoot.

Ok, you are talking about this stuff:

Century Stands | B&H Photo Video (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/shop/5802/Lightstands_Century_Stand.html)

What was confusing me was that I didn't see an arm in any of the pictures except a couple. I take it people normally buy a stand and arm separately? I might try and build one...

thanks,

brian

Well, I bought some items at coollights. I can't wait to apply what I have learned in these forums.

The one thing that I am still a little hazy on is the placement of the flo. I understand the goal is to get the white ceiling to work for me. What does that imply for angular placement? I know I'll want it pretty close to the ceiling (ceiling is 9 feet so probably around 7 feet), but do I point it towards me?

There also seems to be 2 different approaches with the flo - a softbox and without softbox approach. Does the softbox approach depend on the softbox for wide spreading of the light whereas the non-softbox approach depends on the ceiling for spreading?

Also I have some white foamboard (6 pieces of 20" x 30"). I take it these won't be necessary if the flo is used correctly to create an even tone?

thanks,

brian

Ok, you are talking about this stuff:

Century Stands | B&H Photo Video (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/shop/5802/Lightstands_Century_Stand.html)

What was confusing me was that I didn't see an arm in any of the pictures except a couple. I take it people normally buy a stand and arm separately? I might try and build one...

thanks,

brian

Get this:

Matthews | Hollywood Century C Stand with Sliding Leg, | 756040 (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/227746-REG/Matthews_756040_Hollywood_Century_C_Stand.html)

Get that. There are a multitude of uses for C-Stands. Some uses don't need the arm, some do. So they sell it with and without the arm.

Perrone is bang on. Once you've gone Matthews C-Stand, you won't go back... unless of course you actually have to carry them any distance. They are NASTY heavy compared to the lightweight light stands most of us have in our light kits for day to day use. The arm allows for some great light placements that would be hard to do without the C-Stand. I use them when available for hair/back light especially.