My video is now uploaded at Vimeo for anyone who would prefer to view it at a higher resolution.

By design (#3) selected clips on Vimeo (http://www.vimeo.com/6080965)

Really really nice!


I like your composing in the cut here Marj, and understand you have strong card on hand.
This cut with a god Marj story, I lock forword to this one.


All best fore this film.


VJV

Beautiful macro work, Marj. I couldn't take my eyes off the screen. I hope you showed the nautilus shell and the cowry on black backgrounds because you intend to add the equasions later. Demonstrating that god thinks in math will blow people away.

Marj,

A lot of fantastic images!!! the colors and compositions arre sweet, How did you do the rotation of the subjects? Pretty slick. the compositing is grand, done in After Effects???
A couple portions of pans seem to stutter ever so slightly, is that a compression issue??


Can't wait to see the final rendition!!

Thanks Vidar, Steve and Dale for your comments. I have been working steadily gathering my information and images but still have some way to go yet before I can pull it all together into one story.

I set out at the beginning of this project with the aim of learning new techniques. After the almost unanimous comments about the static images last round I have been trying out different ways of solving the problem because I have so many little illustrations which only require one object in the frame - like one flower or one shell. Rob and Chris both mentioned the idea of using an elastic when doing pans - which I tried - and this works like a dream even when using a macro lens. (Thanks guys.)

One idea I came up with was the turntable which I thought would be effective when doing the spiral shells. After doing some research into the matter, I hauled in the technocrats around me and we - sorry they - put together a basic turntable for me made from a windscreen wiper motor, a lazy susan bearing and a v-belt linking two grooved circles of wood (make-shift gears). The main issue here was getting it to turn slowly enough. Using a potentiometer instead of the v-belt (the easy solution) just would not bring the speed down enough - there is a limit to the amount of power one can take away before the motor just won't work.

The compression this round has highlighted a couple of problems for me - the major one is with the compositing. This is the first time I have tried compositing images and I used Premier Pro. However, while my blacks are black in the original, in the compressed versions you can clearly see the differences in the blacks of the composited images. I will fix this now that I am aware of the issue. I am learning After Effects and will sort it out there - if my poor brain can handle any more info that is. I feel like I have been studying for a major math and biology exam the last few months - and I thought this was going to be easy! The research has taken me deeper and deeper into this fascinating subject which has advanced so much since I first learned about it in high school. What I did not realise when I started was that pattern formation in nature and plant morphology in particular are still being actively investigated by mathemeticians and biologists today and they are discovering some amazing things. Problem is, I now have to digest it all and put it into a simple, understandable form. This sequence thankfully has given me some light relief!

Very good Marj, I can see you’ve been hard at work! Isn’t it fun learning new things? I’m working on learning more AE too. Good job incorporating movement into your shots. I especially liked the wipe with the Chambered Nautilus shells. With the Spirula you might do a composite showing that the chambered shell is internal like the remnant shells of squid and octopods. Maybe just an outline of the body around the shell that then fades away. Were all of your reef shots done underwater or were some shot through aquarium glass? Very nicely done if so. I loved the X-radiogram. A sped up macro shot showing the sinusoidal rhythm of movements in echinoderm tube feet might be useful. Perhaps put an urchin in an empty aquarium and shoot up through the bottom? Watching your finished program will be a real treat.

With the Spirula you might do a composite showing that the chambered shell is internal like the remnant shells of squid and octopods. Maybe just an outline of the body around the shell that then fades away.

Hi Mike - thanks for your comments.

I have been trying to work out how to acquire images of these animals and had thought of doing some illustrations. I like your idea of just doing the outline - that would simplify the task. Good idea.



Were all of your reef shots done underwater or were some shot through aquarium glass? Very nicely done if so.

Many of the rockpool shots like the lobster were done in situ, but none of my underwater shots were done underwater. I needed plan B - so before I even got to the rock pools at spring tide I did some back-up footage at the aquarium - just in case. All I can say is I am very glad I did because there wasn't a single sea star to be found even though the tide was way down. I really battled with the dim lighting in the aquarium. You can can actually see the octopus is up against the glass here.


A sped up macro shot showing the sinusoidal rhythm of movements in echinoderm tube feet might be useful. Perhaps put an urchin in an empty aquarium and shoot up through the bottom? Watching your finished program will be a real treat.

Right - now how am I supposed to do that, now that I am 6 hours from the nearest rock pool!!?? Fortunately not essential for my final film - but would be nice to include -as would
footage of the sea star protruding its stomach into a mussel and literally liquidating its prey before consuming it!!! :)

Marj,

Again you show us your talent. Your macros are always clear and tasteful colored.
The rotating objects gives live to the images. It was a good idea. The illustrations are also very good.

Hey Marj

Nice continuation of the matematical /geometric theme to your piece. Loving some of the shot and I like the turntable work. For this sort of thing I thing its a perfect way of illustrating your concepts. I also like the use of cut through sections through the shells showing the internal structures. - As I said before and I know you are aware of I think your challenge is the provide interesting back stories to link your math into other aspects and stories of the natural world. That will really make the piece solid and keep the viewers interest on your main subject.

I am really looking foward to seeing all this put together and undertanding some of these principles !

Great stuff!
Mat

Hi Marj.
A big change from nr 2 this is, so many great shots.
I like the way you show the different shapes and I'm looking forward to see how it all will turn out in the end :) How you will put together the end product from the 3 videos you have given us in this forum.
That's one of the things I like about this competition, you never know what or how the end product will be.

All the best.
Geir Inge

Hey Marj:

Nice work as always. You have a flair for close-ups and the use of the turn-table is VERY effective. You really are putting together a great foundation for the end product. I am very interested to see the next round when it will have a more finished feel to it and we can put the illuminating information together with the imagery.

Fascinating topic!

All the best,

Cat

Thanks for your comments, everyone. Glad the turntable idea has improved things.

My biggest task now is to work on the story and find those missing shots. Time is really running out - especially when all this has to be done in spare time. Most of us are in the same boat though - so wish you all success.

Marge,

Can you post a picture of your turntable?? I like to build stuff, sounds intriguing!

Hope this helps Dale - send me an email if you have any questions.

Marge,


thankyou for the pictures, that is enough for me to understand and build one this winter.

It also gave me some ideas for a donut shaped one for full circular shots of an object.

My video is up at the Uwol Challenge site - will put it up at Vimeo later today.

This is the first ROUGHCUT. It was my intention to have the entire movie up but I ran out of time to finish so you have approximately a third to half of it - will only know once the entire thing is laid out on the timeline. (This may have to be cut drastically.)

The introduction is incomplete but gives you the main premise upon which I have based my film - Galileo’s quotation. The exposition is missing - it will introduce Math’s place in the natural world today.

The animation following the quote is a rough idea of one idea I had for the background for the exposition.

All animations except the first two are rough ideas of what I want - place holders till the final ones are completed. Please ignore the quality of the animations just judge the effectiveness for the concept they are putting across.

Please would you note some of the following while watching my film - I really need your input.

How easy is it to follow?

Did it hold your attention or did you lose concentration - if so - where? Do you think the stories are interesting or inconsequential? Are they structured in an interesting way?

Is the pace too fast/slow. Where?

No matter how hard I tried I could not seem to cut down on the talking. Most of the concepts seem to need to be explained. Is there too much? Is it too tedious with so much narration?

My film will follow the following structure:

Introduction
The geometric shapes around us
Spirals and helices in nature
Number sequences in nature
Golden math in nature
Conclusion

I will try to give a musical interlude like the one in this section at the beginning of each section to give the narration a break. Not sure if that is going to work or not but one needs time to digest some of this stuff before moving on.

Any and all suggestions would be welcome! Many thanks.

Really looking forward to seeing what you have all been up to.

Marj

We will be offline from midnight tonight till Monday night. I will not be able to post my link to Vimeo before then but if you go to one of my previous links it will take you there if you wish to view my video- should be up at Vimeo sometime tomorrow.

Marj

Hi Marj:

Wow! O.K! This is Marj at her best, and no one does this like you do. Now a few things come to mind as general overarching suggestions. Please forgive me, as these will spill out in random thoughts as they come to mind.

First, the opening animation absolutely blew me away and I would love to hear how you put something like it together. The second animation was good, but a comment here is it was distracting to try and read Galileo's quote scrolling from bottom to top and watch the small electron circling the nucleus (or whatever it was). The quote is all important for it is the basis of your entire film. It is imperative you make that quote as easy as possible for the viewer to read and absorb what it says. Finally, the "filler" animations I actually didn't mind and thought they served their purpose.

Now, for understanding the content. For this type of film and the mathematical nature of it, don't be shy but pick your specific audience and then go for it. Just by who you are and the nature of your film, you have narrowed your audience from the general audience and casual viewer to an audience that doesn't mind working their minds as they watch this masterful film. There is nothing wrong with that. I wouldn't worry too much whether people are getting it or not and thus potentially water down what you have to say. Your focus should be on organizing your film clearly and concisely, explaining mathematical principles and then backing them up with your stunning video. As long as you are clear and organized, you will captivate your audience.

Part of the problem we uwolers have by viewing your works in progress is that we don't have yet the clearly organized fundamentals to base our viewing on. We have only received snippets without the fortified building blocks to get us there. That being said, this entry was fairly clear. You were giving us stunning examples of why nature chooses the shapes it does: because the particular shapes are the most efficient, requiring less energy and is the perfect shape for the job at hand.

Finally, in your intro you provided for us in the lower left corner the geometric shape that was exampled by the natural wonder in the film. I didn't catch the geometric shapes the first time viewing your film. Perhaps that can be more prominent so we won't miss your intention here?

And what is this that you are concerned that we might lose interest? Get bored? Think this is inconsequential??? Are you kidding?? All of it is in the realm of fantastic! I've heard someone say that, "God is a mathematician of the highest order" and you are proving it here.

Anyway, all just off-hand impressions. Your mastery of close ups and being able to seek out the subjects of interest is exceptional. Well done!

Oh yeah, the dung beetle was comic relief for me. Not the one doing all the work but the one going for the ride and getting rolled over time and again! Ha!

Awesome work, if I didn't make sense in some of this let me know and I will try again!

Cat

Marj,
I loved this. Simply loved it. There is so much drivel on TV and on line. Thank the Lord for something with a brain in it.
You wanted comments. In your quote from Galileo is the past tense of "learn" "learned"
or did some old translator put it into Old English as "learnt"? I find the whole thing to be jerky, and assume that has something to do with Vimeo. How big are your files? I find similar behavior when I try to put too big a file into Vimeo. Your closeups are so pretty and sharp. Wish I could do that.
It is very difficult in a piece this long to stay on subject all the time, and, when you started this work, I'll bet you didn't realize just how complicated it was going to become. You might do well to follow the old advertiser's mantra. First tell them what you are going to tell them, then tell it, then tell them what you told them. In other words, a brief summary setting up order of the shapes and equasions as it will be related in the piece, then the body of the work, finally a summarizing conclusion. I can't wait to see the whole thing. You've already taught so much.

Marj... I had to watch this several times...the content and presentation is masterful... it is a lot to digest on the first time through. I agree with CAT, don't be afraid to pick your audience...yet at the same time I think you can/may and are reaching potentially several audiences all at the same time in different ways. I guess I just don;t want to see you dumb down something that you fear may escape reaching ALL viewers.

I laughed when I saw Steve's post for I too hung up on "learnt" - to the point of stopping the film and getting out my dictionary, wherein I saw it WAS a proper spelling, and only then when restarting did I see it was a quote.

Your closeups leave me agog*. Simply fantastic work. This film is shaping up to be a winner for sure.

Chris

* Since I had my dictionary out I needed a good word to express my sense of excitement and intense interest. Hence agog.

Marj- I think the pace is much improved this time. The narration holds my attention and is easy to follow. I love the second animation! I think your proposed structure is logical. The usual way to break up narration is with music, just as you are doing. I think it will be OK. For me, it wasn’t too much narration anyway! I’m looking forward to watching the whole thing next time.

Thank you so much Cat for the time you have taken to answer my questions and for giving me exceedingly helpful comments and encouragement! I have been slogging away at this rather intensely for two weeks now trying to get something logical together and, being so immersed in it, I honestly did not know if I was sitting with a complete disaster here or not.



First, the opening animation absolutely blew me away and I would love to hear how you put something like it together.


Cat this animation arrived for me as an email entitled “Prezzie for Mom”.

When I told my youngest son, Greg, about my project and asked for his help to do a very complicated animation for the sunflower section, this first section somehow caught his imagination and unbeknown to me he went off and did this animation for me. He was really chuffed with it and I was so over the moon that I make absolutely no apology for using it rather than something I created myself! How he put it together only he can explain. (Greg wanted to study 3D animation after high school but opted for electrical engineering instead - I wanted to give him an opportunity to use some of his animating talents in my film. He has come through for me in an amazing way.) I will let him know how much you liked it. :)


The second animation was good, but a comment here is it was distracting to try and read Galileo's quote scrolling from bottom to top and watch the small electron circling the nucleus (or whatever it was). The quote is all important for it is the basis of your entire film. It is imperative you make that quote as easy as possible for the viewer to read and absorb what it says.


You have confirmed my thoughts on this Cat - I had felt the animation was okay until we added the moon, then it became too busy. (This is a model of the earth, sun and moon actually, but you have just given me the link I needed to show the universe in macro and micro so I will try morphing it into electrons circling a nucleus.)

The significance of this second animation will only be made clear with my exposition. (It was done by my son Gary who has recently finished a course on 3D animation for his auditorium design work. He appreciated the opportunity to practise and I am so grateful for his contributions which are in a later section.)



Now, for understanding the content. For this type of film and the mathematical nature of it, don't be shy but pick your specific audience and then go for it. Just by who you are and the nature of your film, you have narrowed your audience from the general audience and casual viewer to an audience that doesn't mind working their minds as they watch this masterful film. There is nothing wrong with that. I wouldn't worry too much whether people are getting it or not and thus potentially water down what you have to say. Your focus should be on organizing your film clearly and concisely, explaining mathematical principles and then backing them up with your stunning video. As long as you are clear and organized, you will captivate your audience.


This bothered me a bit when I read it , because I want to bring this topic into the living room of most folk - a general audience - not just to people who can understand the topic. I have a few ideas that may help in this regard without watering it down - thanks to all the helpful comments I have received.



Part of the problem we uwolers have by viewing your works in progress is that we don't have yet the clearly organized fundamentals to base our viewing on. We have only received snippets without the fortified building blocks to get us there.

That being said, this entry was fairly clear. You were giving us stunning examples of why nature chooses the shapes it does: because the particular shapes are the most efficient, requiring less energy and is the perfect shape for the job at hand.



As long as this particular entry is clear, that’s all that matters to me, because I am now working according to a strictly ordered story structure - the other submissions, as you correctly say, were floating outside any planned story.



Finally, in your intro you provided for us in the lower left corner the geometric shape that was exampled by the natural wonder in the film. I didn't catch the geometric shapes the first time viewing your film. Perhaps that can be more prominent so we won't miss your intention here?



Agreed. This section was a real headache for me - trying to find a way to put across what I am trying to demonstrate with these shots but without TALKING is difficult. That was a last minute idea. I thought afterwards - it might have been better to do it boldly and not as an excuse on the side. I would love some suggestions if anyone can think of a better way of doing it.

Many thanks Cat - your comments are amazingly perceptive and soooo helpful!

Hi Steve - Thank you so much for you comments - they are very helpful.


You wanted comments. In your quote from Galileo is the past tense of "learn" "learned"
or did some old translator put it into Old English as "learnt"?

:) As Chris has said, there are two acceptable spellings for this word. I too looked it up (Oxford English Dictionary) just to make sure. Perhaps I had better put everything into quotation marks - may help.


I find the whole thing to be jerky, and assume that has something to do with Vimeo. How big are your files? I find similar behavior when I try to put too big a file into Vimeo.


Thanks for letting me know Steve I wasn’t aware there was a problem. This is the first time I have put such a big file up at Vimeo. I will try to get them smaller in future. I wonder if everyone had the same problem - not nice to watch a jerky video for sure.


It is very difficult in a piece this long to stay on subject all the time, and, when you started this work, I'll bet you didn't realize just how complicated it was going to become.

Tell me about it. I would never have chosen this subject had I known how much work it was going to be. I have had to find hundreds of shots, never mind organize them into a logical sequence! It has also been difficult because there is just so much to cover and you can approach the topic from so many different directions. I have had to select the most important things to do.

Could I ask you to clarify something? Have I gone off the subject or did you find your concentration wandered from the subject? If I cut it down/changed it to solve the problem where do you think it would be best to do it?


Once again thank you so much for your help.

Hi Chris
Appreciate your compliments - this is one time when I actually did not know how my movie was going to be received - I can see though that there is still a lot of work to be done on this section to sort it out.


I agree with CAT, don't be afraid to pick your audience...yet at the same time I think you can/may and are reaching potentially several audiences all at the same time in different ways. I guess I just don;t want to see you dumb down something that you fear may escape reaching ALL viewers.


I will try to add a few more narration transitions just to help out in this regard. I never realized it was quite so brain-draining to watch!!! I am so glad everyone has commented on this though because it is quite difficult, after doing so much research, to get it all disentangled and and laid out in simple terms.

Marj- I think the pace is much improved this time. The narration holds my attention and is easy to follow. I love the second animation! I think your proposed structure is logical. The usual way to break up narration is with music, just as you are doing. I think it will be OK. For me, it wasn’t too much narration anyway! I’m looking forward to watching the whole thing next time.


Hi Mike

Thanks so much for your very helpful responses to my questions. Glad at least you didn't find the narration too overwhelming - that was my main concern - too much talking again - and I 'm not even an overly talkative type of person!

I am sure Gary will be pleased to know you appreciate his animation when I tell him. Thanks Mike.

Hi Marj:

Let me clarify. The stunning video work will captivate any type of viewer, and this is an entry that can be brought into every living room and not fail to delight. I was hoping to communicate that you need not worry about everyone getting the math behind it all and thus shouldn't worry about whether or not to lighten that aspect of the video. We all will understand that these geometric shapes and mathematical principles are found everywhere in the natural world for a reason. You will probably have viewers that are so intrigued, they just might dive into the math to understand it better. And this is where artistic video can change lives. I think this is what you are ultimately wanting to do with this piece of work.

So please, no offense be taken. If you craft it well (which you are), it will be a multifaceted film that reaches people on different levels, from the mathematically savvy to a six year old delighted to watch the bees in the hive and the dung beetle rolling that big ball of poop!

Cat

Hey Cat - Absolutely no offence taken - quite the opposite - I'm so grateful for your observations.

What bothered me was how to solve the problem in the very limited time we have left! I see that you agree with Chris - don't bring it down in level. I will help it along though, by adding more introductory and concluding statements as Steve was intimating.

Anyway I hope the stories I have used, as you have said, will be enough to hold interest even if the amazing underpinning maths doesn't.

Thanks Cat.

Marge,

I learned a lot more once again. Look forward to next month!!!! You should be able to market this video i as number of ways if you so desire.

Marj,
Your work is so delicate and perfectionistic. The animations, macros and colors are superb. In a time where all good films are equipped with an amount of flying skies and fast-moving sunsets, you show up with many personal qualities.
I am impressed.

Marj, I could not find your link. Bob

Oops sorry Bob - link is

By design #4_ roughcut scene 1 on Vimeo (http://www.vimeo.com/7084034)

Best to allow it to download before watching it as it is very stuttery.


Thank you Dale and Finn-Eric for your comments.


Marj

Hi Marj.

I love the opening sequence and what a great choice of music, loved it.
On my PC when playing your vimeo video, the rolling text is "jumping" up the screne, (I'm not sure if the propper english word is jerk, jolt or pull on this matter). Better if it was rolling more smoothly, but it can also be it's only on my computer (others?).
If I where you I would have used a technical font in this video. At least I think it will suit the topic very well. The font you are using is fine :)
When you say "exposition will be here", does it mean text or VO? It's hard for me to tell if the opening is too long or suitable when it's not there, if you know what I mean? Also if you intend to use text, beware of the length. Too much text in videos can sometimes be boring. Not so boring with VO, and you have a fine voice - don't be afraid of using it :)
Ok, when it comes to your clips/shots/colours etc, they are all great. Both close ups and wides are all fine. Most of the shots are in a very high standard and thereby gives your video a professional look. The combination between living creatures and, like when you blend the egg white (at around 6.00 I think), is pretty cool. It shows good thinking and planning through out the video, and makes me think of you as an pro film maker.
Many of us fim makers is just filming "stuff" and don't know whats behind it all. Watching your video it gives me a feeling of; that you know what you're talking about :)
I think that way you are able to give the viewer more than a pretty film to watch and that the viewer will feel certain that what is given to him/her is true.

Puh, if I only could give my comments in norwegian, I feel that I now and then is using the wrong english words for my expresions:/
Well, that is what I got by now - a great video this is.

All the best
Geir Inge

Thanks Geir, I really appreciate the time you have taken to give me this input.

I must assume it is the Vimeo compression combined with the animation in its background that has made the text stutter/jerk as I didn’t have any problems with the text scrolling in my compressed files. Will have to double check all these little things though.

Exposition here means VO - just want to see how much of my film I am going to be able to finish before committing myself to the exposition. It may have to change a bit depending on what I can manage to get done in the short amount of time left. It won’t be long.

Even though I have a keen interest in the natural world around me and have a basic understanding of how things work, the only way I could write the stories for this film was to do lots of research. I have learned so much along the way and have become so fascinated with this subject.

You have raised a very important point - making sure that all facts in a documentary are correct. I have been constantly aware of this because I am neither a mathematician nor a biologist. I have relied heavily on the internet for my information but I regard it with a great deal of caution as it is peppered with mistakes. I have found plenty of them while doing my research - which is the reason I won’t rely on information from one site only.

I have also tried to verify every single statement before putting it in my film and where I can’t verify I have left it out. Where possible I have tried to find the originators of the information. It is 95% verified at this stage - one or two things still need to be double checked. I will also ask an expert to check it.

I was very worried I was over-doing the narration again but without it, it is difficult to work out what is being demonstrated.

Thanks once again Geir.

Marj. very well done, and, educational. Makes one look at the world in a different way. As a former entomologist I really loved the macro. What lens did you use for those extreme close-ups? You did a fantastic job on the narration. Not only pleasingto the ear, but as I said, very educational. Can't wait for the final product. Bob

Thanks for your comments Bob - they mean a lot to me especially coming from an entymologist!

For the close-ups I used a Canon Macro lens EF 100mm 1:2.8 USM on my XL2.

Marj

Hey Marj

Well you look like you've taken some great steps forward and are well on the way to formating your overall film....I hope I get there :-)

Ok then...

As I've said previously I think this concept is very strong and interesting but a tricky story to tell.

I thought the intro needed to be stronger or carry your theme better. These images should be the strongest you have. After all your trying to grab people to keep watching. They should also sing geometry/math which I don't thing some of them did. Maybe there is some section treatment that would make this work.

Narration/Writing. - It seems 'All head and little Heart !' - I hope this descibes what I'm feeling. Firstly it feels like I'm been read too from a text book and while its very interesting its could be more entertaining. I'd say trim it, let it breathe more and let your images tell the story where ever you can.

Story wise. - I like your individual sections, the bees the frogs nest etc. But apart from the obvious connections I felt like I wanted more that was linking these things together. So...something we are trying to find out or looking for the answer too. Maybe it was there and I'd pick it up on a second watch but I just wanted to get that into the critique at this point.

Great stuff Marj and you certainly seem one of the most organised long formers!

Looking forward to you final piece
Mat

As I mentioned in the giant thread I am unfortunately unable to upload my film or download your films until Tuesday next week, so I apologise. It is very frustrating not to be able to view your wonderful films right now.

As you may already have seen, Steve, I answered your question regarding the animation of the florets initiating on the minute sunflower head in the other thread but I did not think it would be a good idea to hog that giant thread with more answers so I moved to here. Incidentally – my sunflower only has 34:21 florets in the first row, so you can imagine just how small they can be when they have 55:89 – even smaller than ours! Just for interest sake - primordia are 40-50 microns wide (1000 microns = 1 mm) 

The nautilus cutaway is simply a radial wipe between the clips of the outside and inside of the nautilus (which is an original graphic of my own with its outline created to match up with the outline of the external view of the shell. )

There was no ways on earth I could get a shot of a Nautilus swimming even if they did inhabit our waters which they don't, so I did a composite (in Premiere Pro) comprising an underwater shot filmed at Ushaka and a single frame of the nautilus shell combined with an original graphic that I created of the head and tentacles.

By reducing the opacity on the nautilus a little, the bright white floaties in the water appeared to be swimming in front of it although they are in fact shining through from behind it in the composite. I got the nautilus to bob along as it does in real life by moving its position between start and end points and by rotating its angle back and forth at regular intervals in the effects control panel.

Hi Marj,

I am so impressed with your work...I've never seen anything like it, and the fact that the presentation and information, too, are new comes as no surprise. I would have assumed that growth begins at the center and works its way out, but thinking back to my embryology, I recall (fuzzily) other examples of inward growth. I didn't think that the animation was from an After Effects plug-in, but neither did I expect you had developed it yourself (even with assistance). Congratulations. I assume that you are in some kind of scientific pursuit as a profession. Correct?

After watching the film, and a little disappointed that you hadn't carried the structures back a little more, (Of course, I didn't know at the time that this was all being done by hand), I tried to think about where these structures and numbers were all coming from. As you get to the molecular level, Fibonacci numbers are not very important. Three, and eight sided molecules are rare. Six is the norm for closed loop molecules, some fives. So the patterns probably aren't set at that fundamental level. Embryos all go through an eight cell stage, but, at least in humans, it is a hexagon with two cells in the middle. Not much help either.
I suppose my question is: what is the smallest structure that displays "Golden Properties".
Do you know? The other feature that just has to hold some answers is the fact that components in one direction of a spiral differ from those in the other direction by just one Fibonacci number. Have you tried to generate a sunflower head with the same number in both directions (like 55 and 55, not 55 and 34). Are there space filling problems that way?
Ultimately, the numbers have to reflect the timing of gene expression for the various structures represented. Timing of gene expression is critical for all development. So does that mean there is a Fibonacci clock? Do you know who does research on this stuff?

Another question Marj,
If each seed was square or circular in cross section, then I suspect (without doing the math, sorry), that a good fit could be made with the same number of spirals in both directions (say 55 and 55). If they are rectangular or ovoid then a lesser number in one direction would be dictated it the whole flower was to be circular, as all Composites are.
Now the question is: Does the shape of each seed approximate a golden rectangle, and is that why they pack in Fibonacci sequences.
If the seeds are golden rectangles in cross section does that reflect the packing of starch granules within? Different kinds of starch is formed by different degrees of branching of the glucose molecules that compose it, and it can pack differently depending on the amount of branching that occurs. On the other hand, aren't all these decisions made while the seeds are still primordia with no starch. Jeez it's complex. I love this stuff!

Thanks Steve.

Okay Dr Siegel lets take these one at a time. There is a long answer and a short answer to all of these questions. Unfortunately, I currently have two clients who have been very patient with me and need their work done so I will have to give you the short answers:

First though, my feet are squarely in the arts. Like you I am just fascinated by this subject – even more so since starting this project. I started out thinking this was going to be a simple fun exercise even if a bit superficial. Nothing could have been further from the truth. This is neither simple nor superficial but at the forefront of a great deal of research. I realized very soon that if I were to do this project I had better know what I am talking about and I spent hours reading and researching this topic. Although I am 99% sure of my facts, my film still needs to be verified by an expert in the field. Dr Palmer has verified this particular section that is based on his research work.




I suppose my question is: what is the smallest structure that displays "Golden Properties".
Do you know?

I understand where you are coming from Steve but in all the research I did I never saw any reference to anything deeper than this level. (Crystals can produce the same patterns but their molecular constituents diverge widely from those of plants.) I am not so sure though that it’s a matter of dealing with individual structures here, but rather with a system.




The other feature that just has to hold some answers is the fact that components in one direction of a spiral differ from those in the other direction by just one Fibonacci number. Have you tried to generate a sunflower head with the same number in both directions (like 55 and 55, not 55 and 34). Are there space filling problems that way?


No I haven’t tried, but anything other than 137.5 deg on a circular disc will have gap problems. Sorry - there is one other way - using two changing angles, but no one has found a plant that uses it.

However, it doesn’t work like that. We did not decide to make our pattern using 21 spirals one way and 34 spirals the other way out of choice. In fact we didn’t even make the spirals - only one unit/object and a little program containing some rules.

The two sets of spirals and two Fibonacci numbers were the natural consequence of this set of rules (iteration) incorporating the golden angle: e.g. repeat this object on the other side of the disc 137.5 degrees from this one using the centre point of the disc as the axis. Repeat this 600 times with each new object positioned at a slightly smaller radius from the centre. (Greg calculated the radius so that no new object would overlap a previous one.) In other words the spirals and the Fibonacci numbers just appeared when this rule was applied! The reason for 21:34 spirals as opposed to say 34:55 spirals is due to the size of the disc relative to the size of the object.

However, in addition to this, Greg had to build in the growth factor – growth of the disc and the continual growth of the little bump thingies. He also had to keep the centre third clear almost till the end, even though the bumps were continually emerging. He also had to make this pattern appear on a saucer shape not a flat disc so lots of things were built into his calculations. Complicated mathematics was involved in creating this - and to think that plants do this all the time!

One could possibly, with a push, use hexagons to pack a circular disc if they were very small compared to the head but you wouldn’t get exponential growth with that and you couldn’t apply it to the leaves. Not only does this one angle solve the packing problem on the seed head but is applied to the leaves arranged helically around the stem as well – quite an achievement.

Next year Greg will be doing a couple of examples for my film repeating this little sequence but using slightly different angles for the florets (different rules) just to show how precise this angle needs to be for good packing without gaps. We both ran out of time to do this for this submission but it’s fascinating to see! Just to give you an idea, try this fun pattern-maker here (it uses values not angles but it will give you an idea anyway):

Nature, The Golden Ratio and Fibonacci Numbers (http://www.mathsisfun.com/numbers/nature-golden-ratio-fibonacci.html)

Another question Marj,

Now the question is: Does the shape of each seed approximate a golden rectangle, and is that why they pack in Fibonacci sequences.


No; the shape of the unit has nothing to do with the Fibonacci packing. See above.

If you look closely at the shape and sizes of the florets on the sunflower they are different from the seeds. The seeds are all a uniform size unlike the developing florets. The seed have to fit somehow after they start to develop. The disc expands to accommodate them but the pattern remains the same and without gaps. (Each floret produces one seed if pollination is successful, so there are the same numbers of seeds as florets.)

I will send you some sites where research is being done via email.

Hi Mike

I have copied this quote over from the general thread to here.

Marj- I enjoyed watching your video. I believe you intend to do more work on it and don’t consider it completed so I’d like to offer some suggestions in that vein. I’d like to hear a few words in the Introduction about the wider field of Biomathematics to give context to the geometry that follows; for example the predominance of math in such diverse fields as physiology, animal behaviour, and population dynamics. You did a good job of showing a diverse mix of organisms in the Introduction. By the time we get to the Conclusions, however, all we see are plants. I think it would be good to mix in a few animal clips again at that point. There are a couple of places where you lose focus, notably the general introduction to honeybees. The information is good (and very well done) but isn’t really germane to the subject. I think you can trim a bit here and gain time for the other topics. The voice over turned out very nice and I loved the Nautilus animation. All in all, a very pleasing general introduction to a fascinating subject.

I would seriously consider changing the title to avoid theological implications…



Mike thank you so much for taking the time to give such good feedback on my film. I must say I value everyone comments because it gives me essential feedback for my final film from various points of view. I really appreciate your input - coming from someone who obviously has a solid background in the field of biology and the natural world in general. Your comments reflect a number of issues I have had with creating this film.

Yes, my film is far from finished – in fact for me this is only the beginning. This is the rough cut of my film with bits missing.

I had to drop a number of stories for this submission - notably my intended exposition and conclusion, the echinoderms (I thought of you), the spirals in flowers other than composites, the sunflower story, formation of animal patterns, fractals, crystals, and cycles. It takes a long time to weave these sub-stories into the main story structure in such a way that they add value to it and don’t interrupt the general flow moving forward. Each has to be integrated with caution and consideration and I just did not have any time left to do this. (The fact that the end here is all about plants is simply because these things have been dropped. That will definitely change.)

However, having said that, the continual question on my mind is how much more can a general audience take in? How long will an audience sit through a film of this nature? I could very easily make what I consider a fascinating story of 90 minutes out of this because there is just so much material from which to choose, but can I stretch it to 90 minutes and still keep my audience through all those tea breaks? These are tough questions and decisions have to be made one way or the other.

This story doesn’t even scratch the surface of the depth of the mathematics found in nature - you yourself have noted some of the things that should rightfully be included. Some of the pertinent discoveries made by mathematicians and other researchers in the field of phyllotaxis (study of leaf arrangement) that are truly fascinating should also be included but simply won’t make it. The list goes on. However, my feeling is that my film should not be too much longer than this.

Apropos the introduction to the bee story - and even the frog story, for that matter – it may not be germane to the subject but I have included these details because for me they bring the story back into the wider context of real life for ordinary people like myself who are not particularly math orientated. My intention was to try and hold attention and breathe a bit of life and meaning into what could be just a boring math story for many. I will consider what you have said, however, if they are just an unnecessary distraction. I intend to rephrase the script around the honeybee to make it less matter-of-fact.

One thing I can’t wait to do now is get my hands on After Effects – I’ve been waiting very patiently for the opportunity to do my titles and introductory animations.

Once again, thanks Mike

Marge,

First, did you not use after effects to do the graphics work on this project??? If not what did you use?

Critically speaking all I noticed was that on a couple explanations I thought the still image seemed a little long as you spoke.

The voice over was truly pleasent in tone, rythm, with simple to understand esxplanations.

You did a fine job keeping everything simple enough to keep most peoples interest for the duration.

With commercial breaks anyone should be able to take it all in!!


Personally I believe the title is perfect!!!!! It says it all and is open to anyones personal directions, theologically or otherwise. I showed it to a friend that is a minister and his statement was "Wow, and some think it was all by accident!" i now I want to show it to my athiest friend when he comes!!!

It takes great work to apeal to everyone!!!

I can't wait to see what graphic titles and such you develop for it!!!

What an inspiration, makes me want to climb harder on the talent ladder!!!

By design on Vimeo

My film did not get further than roughcut stage I'm afraid, but I am very relieved to have it at this stage now as the hard part - getting a story down - is now more or less sorted.

With your permission, I have added some info to my credits to make them more accurate.

Thanks for your feedback Dale - and for your compliments. Premier Pro, Corel Rave and 3DS Max were used for the animations.
The images that are a bit long are really placeholders for the moment. The floret animation at the end was shorter than my narration so I had to cut it and put in some still frames to lenghten it. Something we'll sort out later. Somehow the dissoves between them went missing so they are a bit abrupt.

Marj- Thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts about your project with me. I agree that 90 minutes is too long. Just less that an hour is about right. I’m hoping you may come to see this video as one in a series about the larger topic (with more than a year into it and counting I’m sure you’re not ready to contemplate that just yet). I can see a whole segment on crystals and another on conformations of proteins. You’ve done such a wonderful job with this video that I think the series would be major award material. I follow your reasoning about including the general information about bees. Good thinking. I like your title. I’m just trying to point out that I fear many people will find it overly controversial and that I hope you will consider that. I’m sure you already have. I also can’t wait until you get your hands on After Effects! I have found the learning curve very steep, but you have a much better background in that area than me and I’m sure you’ll soon be amazing us. I can heartily recommend both Adobe’s Classroom in a Book for AE and the free online tutorials over at VideoCopilot. Critique-wise I have been harder on you than the others, and I hope you will realize that it is because your work here is my favorite. I really hope to see you succeed. I’m sure you will. You have emboldened me to, once my own skills have improved, perhaps take on a more serious topic myself. Thank-you. And yes, I really miss those echinoderms…!

Thanks so much for your encouragement Mike. I must say I really appreciate feedback like that which you have given me as it gets me thinking about why I have done some things the way I have and thinking harder about better ways of doing things and I really like that. Some problems with my film are very obvious to me, others not so, and you have raised some good points. As a group we are a good mix of strengths and expertise in different areas and can bring insight into each other's work and that's how we learn from one another. So what I am saying is I welcome constructive criticism particularly as my film is not finished.

Once again - much appreciated.
Marj

P.S. Been meaning to ask you for ages what field of work are you in?