It's all about your specific use, I think.

The only substantial difference I see is the H4n will recorder both inputs simultaneously.

I initially really wanted that. But after some thought about the actual circumstances of my expected use, I realized that if I really needed four channels at the same time, it would probably be far more convenient and flexible to have two separate unts, even if cheaper ones, for that use.

I am not sure what the difference is between analog limiter and Comp/limiter.

The compresor/limiter in the Zoom is a digital function - it happens after the A to D converter. This means you can have a perfectly fine input that does not overload the mic preamp, but does overload the a/d converter.

At 16 bits, any halfway decent mic and line circuitry will have much greater dynamic range (110+ db) than the 16 bit converters (96 db max). If the limiter/compressor is analog, it does its job before the converter, so you can safely run your inputs much hotter without fear of overload - maximizing your S/N ratio.

The fully pro gear like the Sound Devices preamps take this even one step further, putting the limiter right into the feedback loop of the mic preamp itself - actively varying the gain - which makes these pretty near impossible to overload.

If you are recording at 24 bits this is less important.

A shootout would be great - send me these and I would be happy to do one ;-)

It's really hard to compare these with the information given in the specs, it is just too limited. Tascam for example, gives a noise spec for line inputs and leaves it off for the mic inputs, which of course is where it really counts!

They need to be tested on a proper bench with controlled circumstances. You can't tell much from random bloggers with no controls and who knows what kind of setup.

What I really want is a device with two quiet, individually controlled mic inputs, with proper mic gain controls and pad, and a smooth analog compressor/limiter with an LA-2 or dbx like curve and simplicity of control. It could easily be done in these price ranges, so far none are quite there, as far as I can tell.

I don't want 'ALC', the only feature of ALC I have ever found useful is the off switch. It is possible to do that right, but none I have ever seen in a camera or a small device like this has ever done so.

-Mike

To record directly from the mixer. I read somewhere that recorders with 1/8" jack usually cant handle signal voltages from mixers ...

Whose/which mixer?

Many mixers reference output level is +4 DBu. Most consumer gear expects a reference level of -10 DBu. The right way to handle this difference is by padding down the input of the consumer device to drop +4 down to -10 with a resistive pad. If instead, you are tryng to use the level control on the consumer device, you are very likely to overload its input stage.

Some mixers also have a -10 level switch, but of course if this is a house mixer you will have no control over this.

In a pinch, you can just drop the mixer main fader down, this will make the mixer meters fairly useless, but will have less risk of overloading consumer level inputs.


Budget wise I'm leaning towards the H2 but I could prob sell the Lexicon to go for the H4n or even the Sony/Marantz if they meets my needs well. Appreciate all your inputs.

The mic pres in the Lexicon would likely be much better than those in either the H2 or the H4n. Given that you thought the H2 worked well on one of your primary uses, I'd probably just buy that - and two proper pads! - and keep the Lexicon, which has many uses.

-Mike

Depending on the mixer, you can also tap off a lower amount of signal using the Aux Sends to prevent overdriving an input if a pad isn't available. This will allow running the mixer's main output at full level, allowing the meters to work at normal visual levels. Of course, most field mixers don't have this function, but house or music mixers would if they aren't already being used up for effects or monitors.

To record directly from the mixer. I read somewhere that recorders with 1/8" jack usually cant handle signal voltages from mixers ...

Whose/which mixer?

Many mixers reference output level is +4 DBu. Most consumer gear expects a reference level of -10 DBu. The right way to handle this difference is by padding down the input of the consumer device to drop +4 down to -10 with a resistive pad. If instead, you are tryng to use the level control on the consumer device, you are very likely to overload its input stage.

Some mixers also have a -10 level switch, but of course if this is a house mixer you will have no control over this...
Whose/which mixer?
This is pretty important - and likewise to understand how people are using mixers for sound reinforcement. By and large, a live sound operator just doesn't care about running levels per the meters, they only care about how it sounds in the speakers, that they not overload their own mic preamps.

Which means that you might get anything from such a mixer, from very low line level to very hot... Most small and medium churchs won't have a sound op - the pastor knows how to turn things on, and to set the knobs to the marks that they are always set to.

There's been lots of discussion about how to equip to be able to walk into a facility and patch to their board, including:
http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/all-things-audio/74147-how-get-clear-wedding-reception-audio.html

Those looking at the H4n might also want to take a look at some of the new Tascam units:

The new DR-100 looks especially interesting to me.

-Mike

I agree, VERY interesting. But where are the reviews? I can't find a one.

If the Tascam DR-100 does everything the manufacturer says (TASCAM DR-100 Portable Recorder Gets Less Offensive Headline At Winter NAMM 2009 | Gearwire (http://www.gearwire.com/tascam-dr100-wnamm09.html)), and does it well, it is a killer product, especially at that price point. I wonder if it's too good to be true???

I agree, VERY interesting. But where are the reviews? I can't find a one.

I can't either, but I think I read somewhere that these are not actually shipping until the end of the month.

So maybe we just have to wait a bit.

Those looking at the H4n might also want to take a look at some of the new Tascam units:

TASCAM (http://www.tascam.com/catalogue;30,12.html)

What I find interesting about these is that they seem more oriented toward pure audio recording than the 'musician tool' approach of the Zoom.

Note the analog audio limiters - a plus if you are recording 16 bit.

The new DR-100 looks especially interesting to me.

-Mike
Yes but neither of these units can record 4 channels of audio via built in mics and external XLR inputs like the H4n can. If they did I would drop the bones on them in a second over the Zooms. As I trust Tascam's ability to build a proper unit with great pre amps and limiters.

Those looking at the H4n might also want to take a look at some of the new Tascam units:

TASCAM (http://www.tascam.com/catalogue;30,12.html)

What I find interesting about these is that they seem more oriented toward pure audio recording than the 'musician tool' approach of the Zoom.

Note the analog audio limiters - a plus if you are recording 16 bit.

The new DR-100 looks especially interesting to me.

-Mike

Aaah! I just pulled the trigger on a Zoom H4n 12 hours ago!

Had I known about the Tascam, I probably would have gone with it, since I don't really need the 4ch recording of the Zoom. Oh well, c'est la vie.

Tascam seems to be $100 more in street price - but when a manufacturer says it that usually means that $450 will be the minimum advertised price. It may go for less. For that, you also get a remote.

Wow, does the Tascam look like a reengineered H4?

I've been using the H4 for several years, my H4n arrived yesterday. I'll do some more in-depth reviewing, but briefly:
* This box seems much sturdier. The microphones are mounted in a chunck of metal that comprises the front part of the body - very beefy.
* The box now has its own tripod socket - no more silly plastic cradle. This feature has actually proved to be very useful for stereo music recording, which I do all the time.
* In addition to the built-in mics, and the phantom-able XLR-1/4" dual inputs, the H4n now also has a 3.5mm mic socket with switchable plugin power. That's a nice addition, especially for those who have some mics like the small Sony Mid-Side that was so popular with minidisc recording. Also, an MS decoder, for those who want to decode to stereo on the fly rather than in post.
* Gone are the mic sensitivity switches. I've not found any pads - instead, there is now an easily adjustable hardware control for recording level.
* All controls are beefier, feel more solid, and promise to hold up well. The original H4's controls were nowhere near this solid.
* Menu is now much easier to read, and the regular recording/playback display too.
* Menu structure has been reworked. Those tools that non-musicians don't need? They'll never see them, they won't be in the way, they don't take up space in the controls. The new menu system is very easy and intuitive.
* As anyone who has read the manual knows, the H4n doesn't have a full-featured timecode generator. You don't get to choose DF vs. NDF or any other modes - it's really just a clock, albeit a much better clock than the H4. However, the file system has been greatly improved with choices to include recording date in the filename, as well as the timestamp in the BWF header. Is this a fully featured pro sync recorder for double system sound? No. Will its timestamp system get your takes matched up with your prosumer camcorder so you can do fine sync in the NLE? Easily.

All in all, it seems to be a big improvement over the H4. Zoom seems to have listened well to their users and created a fine 2nd generation product. Well worth $50 more (street) IMHO. I'm looking forward to receiving the (optional) remote, currently backordered.

Those impressions gathered in 30 minutes of poking at it at my desk. I'll have a chance to use it tomorrow and will write back. So far, so good! I expect I'll be selling my original H4 with high capacity rechargeable battery pack next week... Alas, the external power voltage has changed in the H4n.

Yes but neither of these units can record 4 channels of audio via built in mics and external XLR inputs like the H4n can.

I am curious about what specific circumstance that would be essential in?

I don't actually need to make a decision for some months, but my current thinking is to buy something like the Tascam unit, plus an inexpensive Zoom H2 which seems really optimal for catching ambience, but could in a pinch be used for dialog, hidden mic, etc.

H2 - no hassle quickie four channel use with built in mics.

Tascam - Better quality 2 channel unit for most voice work, plus both could be used at once, widely separated even. More flexibility this way.

But everyones uses are different. I haven't really decided between them yet. Should have some good info from Dylan Couper soon, it seems. ;-)

If I really needed more tracks, I'm thinking something like this:

MOTU.com - Traveler-mk3 (http://www.motu.com/products/motuaudio/traveler-mk3)

plugged into my MacBook would be handier. Look at the sync and other capabilities on that.
Also runs on batteries, has decent metering, real knobs, etc. A dat could be used to record, everything would be digital and in sync. Even better, if I could find a four track flash recorder that accepted digital in, well, that would be a pretty serious recording setup small enough to fit into a briefcase with room to spare for the mics.

-Mike

The good news:
The BWF formatting Zoom has included carries markers created on the H4n all the way to the timeline of my NLE (Vegas Pro 8.0c)!!!!

The bad news:
As of yet, the BWF timestamp is not correctly written in the file header. As far as timecode syncing in Vegas goes, it's not happening yet as it should, because without that timestamp Vegas doesn't place the media anywhere but at the start. As you can see on the attached screen grabs, the file creation date/time is written to the header, so workarounds are possible. (latest H4n system 1.2)

I'm contacting zoom tech support - I sure hope and expect this is something they can fix.

Some questions for Seth while he waits for answers from zoom tech support:

Any chance this is a Vegas bug?

Have you tried a dynamic mic, does it seem quiet enough?

Have you tried recording all four channels, does that seem to work ergonomically?

How about the little mini jack to replace the internal mics with external mics - is this useful, performance reasonable?

Have you tried to use the compresser? Impressions?

Bill made this test: I just completed a sync test with my camera and the H4n, and after one hour of record time there is NO noticable difference to the ear. Looking at the timeline waveform the H4n appears to be slower by one or two frames. Are your results on your unit the same?


Good that the musician functions ae not in your face. I'd gladly trade all those reverbs and guitar effects for a sync function that would probably take 1/10 the processor power.

These manufacturers are really competing, diifferentiating their lines. Now if we could just convince one to differentiate a model for US...

Ooh thks for the great advice and links Seth.

I have to echo Seth's quick review of the H4N. I have an H4 and just received my H4N. I think it is worthy upgrade to the H4. The ruggedness, better menus and better display alone make the difference for me. I have yet to spend much time checking the audio quality in detail, but my quick recordings sound better than the H4 using the built-in mics in both cases.

Seth, keep us posted on the BWF issue (I'm a Vegas user as well).

The Tascam looked interesting but it's almost $100 more. B&H, my normal supplier, did not have it stock when I was there last week, so I found an H4N on ebay (yes I know a little risky) and they threw in a free 16GB SD card + ebay was having a one day 10% off coupon.

...Any chance (bwf syncing issue) is a Vegas bug?

Have you tried a dynamic mic, does it seem quiet enough?

Have you tried recording all four channels, does that seem to work ergonomically?

How about the little mini jack to replace the internal mics with external mics - is this useful, performance reasonable?

Have you tried to use the compresser? Impressions?

Bill made this test: I just completed a sync test with my camera and the H4n, and after one hour of record time there is NO noticable difference to the ear. Looking at the timeline waveform the H4n appears to be slower by one or two frames. Are your results on your unit the same?...
In that the file from the Sound Devices 744t works fine with Vegas' interpretation of BWF header info, and that there have been no reports I'm aware of regarding Vegas errors with timecode sync, I'm pretty sure this is an error in the way that the H4n writes the BWF headers. No response yet from Zoom, I hope this will be fixable.

I did a quick recording with an SM58 (dynamic mic) at 16/48 in a quiet room and put it up on the big monitors, to the ear it is plenty quiet enough. Original recording peaked voice at about -15db, noise level not seen on the meters and not heard, after peak normalization to -0.1db, noise was down around -50db and barely perceptible. So, umm... that would mean that I had room noise and/or self noise down in the -60 to -70 range in a room in a house = I think that's pretty good; they have improved the preamps.

I've run out of time for a couple days - hope to run a sync test later in the week. I don't have any mics that terminate in mini-plugs, and don't have immediate use for 4-ch. recording, but I am interested to see how they work and will report back.

Peter:

When you have a chance... Inquiring minds want to know:

1. How are the microphone preamps? Quiet and dynamic or noisy and anemic? Please plug in a quality shotgun or lavaliere and give us your opinion, using 48V phantom of course.
2. Headphone output, hiss filled or quiet?

The H4 sounds great when used line in with a mixer but the mic preamps were lousy, noisy and filled with hiss in the recording as well as the headphone output had excessive hiss. Zoom almost has the recipe correct if they can overcome these two deficiencies. The features, controls, etc. are already there. I stopped by a music store today and did some critical listening of the H4 and I was not impressed, but I do have hope for the H4N since Zoom knew what it needed to improve to win the race.

Thanks,

Dan

Sounds like they definitely responded to the criticism of the H4.

If it will do that with a 58, it should be pretty good for any close miced dialog situation.

Thanks for your efforts.

-Mike

Agree with you Mike. Now we need a shoot off - Zoom H4N verses the Tascam DR-100

Ask and ye shall receive.

Brad Linder's blog: Zoom H4n review (http://www.bradlinder.net/2009/03/zoom-h4n-review.html)

Look at the last few reader comments.

Somewhat surprising, but the Zoom H4n seems to be beating the Tascam handily. Don't know who these people are, of course, but they're the only user reviews I can find of the Tascam dr-100.

Hi Greg:

Just stumbled across that. I think I am now sold on the H4N over the Tascam. I listened to his samples with the condenser mic. I think a lot of people writing reviews on these little recorders are musicians and engineers and are pretty discerning about the sound quality. If you compare Brad's dialogue samples with the typical camcorder's sounds, the Zoom H4N blows away almost any camcorder's sound quality.

I was pretty impressed with what I heard out of the Zoom H4N and will be ordering it. The Tascam is said to not sound as good and has some operational glitches that don't work as well as the Zoom either. And the Zoom is $80.00 less.

Thanks,

Dan

Yup...this is why we wait for reviews. I have seen Tascam make some amazingly good bang for the buck stuff...and some real turkeys. :-)

Another real interesting device is the M-Audio MicroTrack II. Like the H4n, this is this companies second try after some serious errors first time around - and much better for it.

It looks much closer to my 'please leave off the guitar effects' approach. It has a battery problem (can be worked around) but: has limiter, apparently very good preamps, has NO internal mics (great for some uses), is really small, and...this is really interesting to me...has a digital input. Think 'digital in from field mixer'. Does bwf, can set cues.

The digital in might be really interesting in regards to sync. Since the internal clock on the converters MUST sync to the incoming digital stream, there MAY be a way to record analog while the clock is synced to the digital stream. Which could create synced sound (phase locked) given a few external things like a video to word clock sync box.

I see this for around $299.

An interesting Craig Anderton review:

Review: M-Audio MicroTrack II (http://www.harmony-central.com/articles/reviews/maudio_microtrack/)

Also:

Review: Edirol R-09HR & M-Audio MicroTrack II | O'Reilly Media (http://digitalmedia.oreilly.com/pub/a/oreilly/digitalmedia/2007/08/04/r-09-hr-microtrack-2-review.html?page=1)


-Mike

Yup...this is why we wait for reviews. I have seen Tascam make some amazingly good bang for the buck stuff...and some real turkeys. :-)

Another real interesting device is the M-Audio MicroTrack II. Like the H4n, this is this companies second try after some serious errors first time around - and much better for it.

It looks much closer to my 'please leave off the guitar effects' approach. It has a battery problem (can be worked around) but: has limiter, apparently very good preamps, has NO internal mics (great for some uses), is really small, and...this is really interesting to me...has a digital input. Think 'digital in from field mixer'. Does bwf, can set cues.

The digital in might be really interesting in regards to sync. Since the internal clock on the converters MUST sync to the incoming digital stream, there MAY be a way to record analog while the clock is synced to the digital stream. Which could create synced sound (phase locked) given a few external things like a video to word clock sync box.

I see this for around $299.

An interesting Craig Anderton review:

Review: M-Audio MicroTrack II (http://www.harmony-central.com/articles/reviews/maudio_microtrack/)

Also:

Review: Edirol R-09HR & M-Audio MicroTrack II | O'Reilly Media (http://digitalmedia.oreilly.com/pub/a/oreilly/digitalmedia/2007/08/04/r-09-hr-microtrack-2-review.html?page=1)


-Mike

Mike,

The Micro Track II sounds pretty good, and it's at Amazon for $269, ... but it doesn't have XLR connections. I don't know enough about adapters -- or if there even are adapters -- to connect it to my Oktava condenser, Phantom powered mic. I was considering the Sony PCM D-50, which some rave about, but it doesn't have XLRs either and the adapter needed to use XLR cables cost as much as the recorder itself.

the adapter needed to use XLR cables cost as much as the recorder itself.


No, no...not in the case of the MicroTrack at least. This is a straight stereo 1/4 to XLR adapter, no transformer, electronics, etc. Should be, like...$10 maybe?
...

Example:

GXP143 Hosa Audio Adapter-Quarter Inch Male to XLR3 Female $6.99

Considering how small the Microtrack is, you could almost get the male version of the adapter above and jam it right into the mic like a mic plug wireless.

the adapter needed to use XLR cables cost as much as the recorder itself.


No, no...not in the case of the MicroTrack at least. This is a straight stereo 1/4 to XLR adapter, no transformer, electronics, etc. Should be, like...$10 maybe?
...

Example:

GXP143 Hosa Audio Adapter-Quarter Inch Male to XLR3 Female $6.99

Considering how small the Microtrack is, you could almost get the male version of the adapter above and jam it right into the mic like a mic plug wireless.

No, that's specifically for the Sony recorder. The Sony XLR-1 mic adapter. It's $450 and is as big as the recorder itself. Crazy.

So a $6.99 adapter can give me the same capability (with a non-Sony recorder, of course) as the Sony adapter?

I don't know how close together the 1/4" input jacks are on the MicroTrack. So it may not be possible to get two of those large diameter XLR to 1/4" TRS adapters in there side-by-side.
If that's the case, it would not cost much to make adapter cables, (or new XLR-F to 1/4" TRS mic cables) which may be better anyway considering the weight of an XLR+adapter, stressing the plastic body of the MicroTrack.. which I assume is plastic.

So a $6.99 adapter can give me the same capability (with a non-Sony recorder, of course) as the Sony adapter?

It appears to be so.

You are referring to this, I assume:

"The optional XLR-1 mic adapter ($499.95) runs on four AA batteries, providing phantom-powered XLR inputs. It bolts to the back of the D50."

Wow. I think someone at Sony seriously misjudged their market this time.

Yes, phantom power is built in to the MicroTrack, H4n, and others. I think I need to sit down after reading that price ;-)

I agree with Rick about the cabling on the MicroTrack. I would probably solder two right angle plugs to a couple feet of lightweight Mogami twin pair, so as not to stress the connectors.

-Mike

Dan:

I agree with you, when I had the H4, the best recordings were line level in using an outboard mixer. Mic input as you mentioned was pretty noisy.

So far I've only tried the onboard H4N mics and subjectively it sounds better than the same recording with the H4 onboard mics. I don't have the H4 anymore, so I can't do more side by side recording/listening.

Ergonomically, the H4N is so much better though.

Sounds like from a later msg that you are now convinced and ordered one!

No, that's specifically for the Sony recorder. The Sony XLR-1 mic adapter. It's $450 and is as big as the recorder itself. Crazy.

So a $6.99 adapter can give me the same capability (with a non-Sony recorder, of course) as the Sony adapter?

The Sony adapter is an actual phantom power supply and preamp add-on for the recorder, not just a cable connector adapter, hence the much higher price, but it's true, the bottom line is the same. The Microtrack provides phantom on its TRS jacks but the Sony recorder doesn't have a phantom supply, hence the need for the circuitry in the XLR-1 to add it on. The XLR-1 is more akin to a Juicedlink than it is to a cable adapter. As to whether the $6.99 adapter will work with to connect an XLR mic to any non-Sony recorder, it all hinges on whether the mic has an internal battery for power and/or the recorder in question provides phantom. In the case of the Microtrack, it works because the recorder's TRS inputs are 1/4 inch, balanced, mic-level, with phantom. This actualy is quite unusual - 1/4 inch inputs are most often line level and may be either balanced for device interconnects or high-impedence, unbalanced instrument inputs intended to work with guitar pickups and the like.

...Sony adapter is an actual phantom power supply and preamp

You would think so. But read closely the description.

No preamp. Transformers. Totally passive device for the audio.

At that price, they had better be some top of the line Jensen transformers in there, too.

Pretty limited market for this, I should think, since you can buy a Fostex FR2LE for $600. And those two together seem to be pushing size and weight for a 'handheld' just a bit.

-Mike

Zoom has responded on the BWF timestamp issue with "our technicians are looking into it".

I remain hopeful!

Further use of the H4n has confirmed my initial impressions and more:

The new display is nothing short of awesome - you really can see the meters and status from several feet away, even with old eyes like mine. As with the H4, I've switched the display light to "on", which of course uses more battery. The factory default switches off the light after 15 seconds.

That teeny built-in speaker is very handy for quick recording checks.

The 3.5mm mic input worked with ease - just plug a mic in, select plugin power if needed, and away you go. I ran some recordings with a small sony MS mic that was very popular in the minidisc era - it worked just fine.

I've been a little hesitant about the lack of pads for input attenuation. Haven't had a chance to properly benchmark this, but at this point I've recorded moderately loud sound with the internal mics, with the sony mic mentioned above, with a condensor instrument mic using phantom, and with a dynamic Shure SM58. I found recording levels between 50 and 70 to be entirely adequate. So far, I've not needed any padding - the condensor mic was close-micing a loud instrument; I'll speculate that turning on phantom may engage a 12db pad, as condensors tend to run hotter than dynamics, but don't really know - will test that one of these days, as well as the 1/4" inputs (which were the only way to appropriately bring in line-level on the H4).

Menus have proved to be very intuitive, a great redesign. I can find stuff when I need it very quickly, and the old thumbwheel that is used for selection of menu items is greatly improved and very quick to use.

The "stamina" mode is a good thing! Unfortunately, it restricts you to recording wav/bwf at 16/44. It would be nice for use video guys and gals if it would also work at 16/48. But yes, it does (about) double battery life.

I found radioshack parts to build an external high-capacity NiMH battery pack that was so handy for the old H4 - this is not going to be quite as easy for the H4n. Of course 5v NiMH packs do exist, you just don't find them at radioshack, apparently there are some RC aircraft control systems that run off 5v. Web sellers have the batts, but I'll be checking RC/hobby shops.

The Linder blog referenced above takes issue with the SD cardslot door. I tried to eject the card with the door closed - it can be done, but on my H4n it takes a very deliberate action, a hard push with a thumbnail directly in the center of the door. I don't think this is going to be a problem, at least for my use.

All in all I am very happy with features & the results of the limited use I've done so far.

...Sony adapter is an actual phantom power supply and preamp

You would think so. But read closely the description.

No preamp. Transformers. Totally passive device for the audio.

At that price, they had better be some top of the line Jensen transformers in there, too.

Pretty limited market for this, I should think, since you can buy a Fostex FR2LE for $600. And those two together seem to be pushing size and weight for a 'handheld' just a bit.

-Mike

On re-reading, you're right. They state "Totally passive signal path" BUT it does provide the 48v phantom as well so there is a power supply in there. It better be a darned good along with the best transformers made for that price!

The 3.5mm mic input worked with ease - just plug a mic in, select plugin power if needed, and away you go. I ran some recordings with a small sony MS mic that was very popular in the minidisc era - it worked just fine.

Please confirm this: you can turn the 'plugin power' off?
If so, that means this could be used as a general purpose input. With a resistive pad, as a line input. With something like a JT-13K6-C transformer ( JENSEN TRANSFORMERS, INC. - MICROPHONE INPUT TRANSFORMERS (http://www.jensen-transformers.com/mic_in.html) ), a quiet, balanced, dynamic mic input. (You get 13 db of 'free' noiseless gain this way.) No phantom, but it doesn't cost $499.95 either. ;-)

No input pad - Lots of mics have pads built in, plus this is a cheap and simple thing to add to the cable anyway. Not a serious worry to me.

This keeps looking better.

-Mike

The 3.5mm mic input worked with ease...

Please confirm this: you can turn the 'plugin power' off?...
If so, that means this could be used as a general purpose input...a quiet, balanced, dynamic mic input.

I'm talking about the Zoom H4n here:
Yes, the plugin power is defaulted to "off", it can be turned on in the menus (right next to phantom power controls).
The H4n has a good assortment of inputs - 3.5mm "consumer", dual XLR, dual 1/4", as well as its two built in cardoid xy mics. The XLRs provide dual "nice quiet dynamic mic inputs"!

As to using the 3.5mm as a general purpose input, I suppose so, if the signal is at the right level - but then we've also got those 1/4" inputs which were very handy on the original H4.

Regarding built-in pads - I'm trying to apply my experience from the original H4, which had three levels of pad (H, M, L) on the internal mics and the external inputs, which were very much needed because the recording level control was awful. Now, on the H4n, we've got recording level control which seems to be pretty good... my hope is that I won't need padding, internal or external, period. Will probably work on this over the weekend.

Finally put my $ on the H4n 3 hrs ago and its a BLAST. The onboard mic works pretty well so far, picking up voices clearly even with a loud TV blasting in the background. It also works perfectly with the condensor AKG-3000B. There is an option for mono mix so I can record on 2 channels in stereo mode directly into it, making it a portable Voice over station!

Still trying to figure out if auto of fixed rec levels is better. I must say I'm very pleased with it so far. Built quality is good and price is reasonable. The only thing is it doesnt come with the mini tripod stand by default. But you could get a great package with that on Ebay.

I'm enjoying my H4N as well. Since I play first and read manual later. It's been all the joy of exploration the past day or two. I'm amazed at how much you get for the money - not only feature wise, but quality wise. As a GUI/SUI SME by trade, it's great to see someone in electronics getting the user interface right for a change. It's not perfect but better than the rest and Sony is always a PAIN IMHO.
Just tested it doing some VO. Will grab some field recordings to back up my crappy HV20 takes.

For VO I use my DIY version of the PortaBooth and I picked up a terrific tripod from Amazon that is a height adjustable desk mike as well. Make & Model on request since I can't remember it.

I'll make a 'deadkitten' wind cheater for this next.

Finally put my $ on the H4n 3 hrs ago and its a BLAST. The onboard mic works pretty well so far, picking up voices clearly even with a loud TV blasting in the background. It also works perfectly with the condensor AKG-3000B. There is an option for mono mix so I can record on 2 channels in stereo mode directly into it, making it a portable Voice over station!

Still trying to figure out if auto of fixed rec levels is better. I must say I'm very pleased with it so far. Built quality is good and price is reasonable. The only thing is it doesn't come with the mini tripod stand by default. But you could get a great package with that on Ebay.
Funny you should mention that because my Ebay purchased H4n arrived today (along with mini tripod and 16GB Transcend SDHC card).

I agree with all that has been said so far, as the pre amps do appear improved, the construction and display are MUCH better and robust, manual controls are easily accessible now. And most important the circuitry seems to be laid out properly. So when you adjust teh level input down, then the input gain actually is lowered. So if your audio clips, do this will prevent clipping, rather than giving you lower recorded clipped audio like with the H4 or H2. This might be why there are no L/M/H gain switches on the unit. I must say though that I like the option of having switchable gain on the unit. I'm going to have to do some testing to see which Limiter setting (I have heard Limiter 2 Concert) is best for loud environments.

I am curious of one thing though. I am planning to use the H4n to record PA stacks at receptions, and also use the onboard mics to record ambient reaction audio. I plan on using the 1/8 "Line Out" port to send a wireless feed to my camera for backup/sync purposes. I wonder if I am recording in 4 Channel mode (using 2 mics and built in mics), which signal is being sent out of the "Line Out". Is it a mixed down 4 channel or simply 2 channel from either the onboard mics or XLR/1/8 input. If it send the onboard mics only, then that would suck, and do me no good, as I would want the miced PA stack and not the crowd reaction onbaord mics. If it's a mixed down 4 channel, then that's ok.

Gonna have to test this one.

Also check the line out to see if it contains any delay since your intention is to send that signal to the camera. A significant delay would require slipping the camera audio in relation to the matching video when you edit.

Interesting thought on the delay. Would be easy to fix in post, but I wonder as well. I also wonder how well the audio recorded to the unit inself will stay in sync over time with the audio from the camera. Time will tell............

Ben

Well, I don't rely on using very long stretches of audio for my edits.
So, even though sync is easy t do in post, I don't worry about drift too often.

As for delay, his is also not a concern, as I'm not working with timecode for the audio from the H4n and my camera. I simply line up the waveforms in my NLE and I'm good to go.

What I think Jay meant by delay was not recorder to camera delay, but actual delay of the audio track on the video itself. If the audio is being delayed at the H4 and then sent over the wireless to the camera it may be out enough to cause a lip sync issue. Still fixable, but I have never had to adjust the audio track from the camera's sound to match the video track from the same camera. But in this case I think its possible to have to if its delayed enough. Though I have never heard of it being and issue.

Ben

What I think Jay meant by delay was not recorder to camera delay, but actual delay of the audio track on the video itself. If the audio is being delayed at the H4 and then sent over the wireless to the camera it may be out enough to cause a lip sync issue. Still fixable, but I have never had to adjust the audio track from the camera's sound to match the video track from the same camera. But in this case I think its possible to have to if its delayed enough. Though I have never heard of it being and issue.

Ben
Ah, now I see what he's talking about.

I'm not too worried about this, as my plan to use a wireless and the H4n's output is just for reception use only, where I would use 2 mics to mic the PA stack, one on woofer and one on tweeter, and the onboard mics for ambient audio. This would generally be for music only.

So if I need audio for things such as toasts and the like, I could simply adjust in post, by using the onboard shotguns mics audio waveform.

But I have done this in the past using a M-Audio Microtrack, a Zoom H4, as well as an Edirol R44 recorder, and the results on tape from the wireless signal to my camera were in perfect sync. So while this might be a possibility, based on my past experience with other recorders, it's probably not a concern.

Just got my H4n yesterday. So far, the best part has been reading the "Engrish" in the manual. :)
However, I'm also happy with the sound quality for the price.

Just got my H4n yesterday. So far, the best part has been reading the "Engrish" in the manual. :)
However, I'm also happy with the sound quality for the price.
I had to laugh at that one, as this has to be one of the worst manuals I have ever seen. ;)

Hi Bill. I had time to muck around with it a bit this afternoon. To answer your questions, 4 channels can be recorded separately in 4 channel mode but only as 2 distinct stereo sources. In other words, you can set an input level for the onboard mics and a separate input level for the other two inputs. Just plug in your mic, ensure phantom is on and use the "mic" "1" "2" buttons on the left front to choose the input and adjust its level. Not explained well in the manual (see below for more on that) but not too hard to figure out by pressing buttons.

Stereo recording mode is only for stereo but there is a built in MS matrix so you could record MS and have the box decode it for you, nice feature.



John what exactly does the MS matrix do.
I notice that it seems to enable you to pad your signal up or down. Is this correct.
Could one use the MS Matrix to pad the signal on the onboard mics and/or inputs?

John what exactly does the MS matrix do.
I notice that it seems to enable you to pad your signal up or down. Is this correct.
Could one use the MS Matrix to pad the signal on the onboard mics and/or inputs?
The MS Matrix appears to be designed to decode while recording, allowing you to use an MS mic but record in stereo.

This isn't going to be good when using other mics. The decode is Left=Mid+Side, Right=Mid-Side. The ratio of side to mid in those formulas is what determines stereo spread, *edit, and is what the MS level control adjusts*. So, no, this isn't a good choice to get indpendent control of recording levels.

For me, I'd much rather record M/S straight, then decode in post, where I can evaluate spread.
*************
I've been fooling around with the 4ch and MTR modes. MTR appears to strictly be a mixdown mode that will let you mix various files and bounce; I'm not likely to get into that further.

4ch. is more interesting. In that mode, one can record two stereo pairs - the built-in mics (or, probably, the 3.5mm input) and the external XLR-1/4" inputs. Yes, the volume of each pair is linked. However, you can adjust the recording volume of each pair independently from the other pair, using the hardware record-level control.

HOWEVER!!!
4ch. mode also enables a new menu choice, "mixer". You get a little 4-ch. software mixer, that works in the 4ch. recording mode, and, YES, it has a balance control on each pair.
******************************************
*YES WE CAN* adjust each of the 4 available input levels independently using the mixer!
******************************************

New system update posted (version 1.3):

Download Software (http://www.zoom.co.jp/english/download/software/h4n.php)

Seth...did you ever hear anything more on the bwf timestamp issue you refered to in post # 62 of this thread?

I received a nice email on 4/1 stating that their engineers were looking into it and that they would get back to me. Any fix did not make it into system 1.3, which was released just a few days after my email.

I remain hopeful that we'll see this addressed in system 1.4, whenever it is released.

I'm still pretty impressed with the H4n, solid, professional performance, very well thought-out in so many ways.

After going over the info in this thread I'm almost ready to get the H4n...almost...if the fix for the bwf timestamp had been in the latest update, would have done it immediately...tax return is comming... so it wont be long after that. Several posters' seem to be inclined to get it from BH for the added security of warranty... but some have purchased from ebay listed companies...if anyone whos gotten theirs from the ebay stores has any good or bad opinions on their purchase from these venders, I'd appreciate any feedback.

i did my first live speech recording on Sunday and it turned out a little low on the levels. I had set the level to 65 which is too low. there was a ceiling fan which was creating too much distortion in the onboard mics during my setting. They turned it lower but I didnt pull up the levels.

The speech was pretty clear but there is a humming noise which i cleaned up with noise reduction Fx. I understand this humming is due to my low setting of the level. I was worried to set it on auto levels as I hear of distortion cases. I guess I have to pull it up a little in future.