Would the Tascam HD P2 be a better recording option than the Zoom H4n?

Tascam HDP2 is different. Better? Certainly for some uses.

HDP2:
Also records to flash memory (CF)
Actual knobs and dials are quicker/easier to use on the fly.
It's way bigger, 3 or 4 times the size of the H4n.
Designed to use in a location audio bag, knobs & display can be seen/operated in a bag.
Way more money, about $800 US street price.
More flexible as to timecode, can jam to a camera or TC gen.
Has a sync input and will clock to video sync from cam or syncgen.
Digital ins and outs.
Can plug in a PS2 keyboard for transport control, file-naming & such (handy on a cart or studio).
More robust set of editing tools onboard.
About 4x the power consumption, expensive if you're on AA batt power.
Generally good preamps and audio quality.

Now, a lot of the above doesn't make much difference for a lot of casual recording, but could be very handy, especially if your cam has TC out, or, you're ready to jam to a TC generator. Still though, this is probably aimed at low-end pro rather than hi-end prosumer.

H4n:
Way smaller.
Way less expensive, about $350 US street price.
Extremely basic time-of-day TC capabilities - good for rough sync, but have to do fine sync in the editor (however, even with full pro TC gear fine sync frequently needs to be touched)
Built-in stereo mic pair that really isn't bad.
More flexible on inputs - XLR, 1/4", 3.5mm.
Can record 4 input channels (built-in mics plus xlr-1/4")
2 AA batts get you 6 hrs, or, 11 hrs in stamina mode (16/44 only).
Recording to WAV/BWAV and various MP3.
Generally good preamps & audio quality.

So, what were you looking for in an audio recorder? Small and fast? H4n. Better integration into TC workflow and more "pro" appearance & operation? HDP2.

After close reading of the HDP2 manual, I'm still not quite sure if its TC gen will do standalone time-of-day code. Perhaps someone knows for sure and will enlighten us.

" Now, a lot of the above doesn't make much difference for a lot of casual recording, but could be very handy, especially if your cam has TC out, or, you're ready to jam to a TC generator. Still though, this is probably aimed at low-end pro rather than hi-end prosumer. "

Then...would the H4n fall into the category of "high end prosumer" ?

John - check out page 137. It looks like 4 channels can be recorded simultaneously but the "(Stereo 2 tracks)" means it cannot record 4 tracks while in stereo? Or does it mean you can record 4 tracks, but it must be IN stereo mode? Meaning you can adjust sensitivity for internal mics and the inputs together.

137 pages! Sounds like the manual is bigger than the recorder. :)

Ty Ford

Then...would the H4n fall into the category of "high end prosumer" ?
Yes?

We use the language differently in different circumstances. If you want to be perceived as the owner/operator of fully pro systems that "everyone" knows represent the state of the art, get yourself a petrol bag and stuff it with a sound devices recorder, a sound devices mixer, and lectrosonics wireless. Better get a battery system, a timecode slate, a listen system, and upgrade your mics at the same time. $12,000 US to $20,000, or more! That's not the end of equipment, either; go above 4ch. recording and now we're into some serious money!

Of course, now you've only bought credibility for your hardware. Establishing your own credibility as a location recordist is a different and more important thing.

That's a game with its own rules and conventions, and informs us as to what is truely "professional", which, in this case, means that someone can earn their living as a location recordist if they have the skills and can borrow, rent, or own the equipment.

I've used some of that equipment. I've not used the Tascam, but to all reports it is a credible entry-level recorder.

The H4n, by comparison, comes to us from the amazing home-recording market, which places it squarely in the prosumer category. $350 US. For that price, you get a very solid little recorder, that on a good day, with a good mic, and in the right hands can produce a recording hard to distinguish from real pro gear.

But the H4n is not going to be one of the choices for someone paid to record double-system location sound 10+ days per month. They might start out with the Tascam, but probably don't stay with it when they can afford to move up.

For all that, I'm really enjoying the H4n, just as I did the H4, keeping it with my musical instruments to record rehearsals, collecting wild sound, location recording of VO, and occasional double system sound at events. For me, little, light, handy, and inexpensive is very good. When I need something else I rent.

Well said...thank you Seth.

I just got my H4N tonight. I must say that it is amazingly intuitive!

I plan on using it with my D90 for personal short films.

I'll give my 2 cents of a review after I play with it for a while

~Jay

Seth,

Where did you buy it and how much did you pay for it?

Thanks,

Ty Ford

I just got my H4N tonight. I must say that it is amazingly intuitive!

I plan on using it with my D90 for personal short films.

I'll give my 2 cents of a review after I play with it for a while

~Jay
Jay, I think that the H4n will be a nice compliment to your D90.
On a side note, how do you like working with the D90?
Any desire to move to the Canon 5D, over the D90, or is the D90 working nice for you?

I picked one up from fullcompass.com for $349. First use was as second system sound with two AT4073a's to cover a small venue stage play. Most impressed.

Jay, I think that the H4n will be a nice compliment to your D90.
On a side note, how do you like working with the D90?
Any desire to move to the Canon 5D, over the D90, or is the D90 working nice for you?

There is an incredible desire to move over to the 5D, but this is just a hobby for me, not my job. The D90 offers something that high end consumer HD cameras do not-- a film look.

The D90 like most DSLRs are terrible video cameras, they just happen to make beautiful videos in the right situations. I bought the D90 as a still camera first. For me the purpose of a camera is primarily to capture memories, not create art. Sometimes video is better at capturing memories than a still photo, but I didn't want to carry two cameras. I grew accustomed to the convenience of a point and shoot digital camera that has good still and poor, but better than nothing video.

The D90 is an outstanding still camera - almost professional. In the right situation it can also make outstanding film-like video!

The reason I bought the H4N was because my wife and I, for fun, not revenue, want to do a web based travel show. My real job is an audio engineer and I dabble in television a little.
Therefore I have high standards for audio, even for my hobby. The audio in the D90 is sub-standard.

I think Canon and Nikon were caught off guard with a huge success of their HD DSLRs. Next year I expect to see news of proper video camera that uses DSLR lenses and a large CMOS. Something like the RED scarlet, but cheaper.

FYI, I got the H4N from a company I have never heard of- UniqueSquared, I found them on ebay. I don't know if we are allowed to talk about prices here, but their service and price were both outstanding.

~Jay

Everything I've seen says the street price on H4n is $350, which is what I paid through an online music supply retailer. If everyone is selling for the same price... buy from a trusted source locally, or, at least, if online, try to reduce/eliminate shipping costs. I guess I'm cheap, cheap, cheap!

I had an opportunity to use my H4N to record the audio during the taping of a high school show. I was using my Sony VX2000 recording the video/audio and the H4N with a couple of AKG mics.

The entire show was 1 hour and 53 minutes, so I used used two DV tapes. The first act was one long (1 hour) take. Bringing in the camera video/audio on the timeline and the audio for H4N I was pleasantly surprised that the H4N audio track was out of sync by only about 2 frames from the camera audio by the end of the hour.

Big improvement over the H4.

Peter that's great to hear.
One of the major objections to the Zoom recorders by users is that it doesn't hold sync well over medium to long periods of video. Personally I don't edit using 1-2 hours straight of the same video and audio so it hasn't been a huge issue for me.

But I can see it being a problem for long recording needs like recital and stage work.
In the past I have used my Edirol R44 for stage productions and it has worked great. I recently picked up the H4n and am anxious to give it a try for stage productions as well. So this is good news.

Michael:

I was very pleased after the sync issues I had with my old H4. I was also impressed with the sound quality using the xlr mic inputs. To my ear, there is a large difference from the H4. All in all the H4N has been pleasantly surprising experience as I wasn't expecting that big a change, except for the user interface which drove me crazy on the H4 (especially since I'm doing video and audio recording solo).

Peter

How many milli-amps of phantom power does the H4n provide? I've searched for a while with no results. I learned today that some mics may require more power than some phantom power units provide.

How many milli-amps of phantom power does the H4n provide? I've searched for a while with no results. I learned today that some mics may require more power than some phantom power units provide.
The H4n can provide up to 48v of phantom power.

Right, 48 volts, but how much current at that voltage? I had assumed all 48 V phantom power units were created equal, but they are not. If the H4n provides 2 mA current and a mic requires 3 mA then the mic is not going to work well.

Does the H4N have any audio wandering? I use an iriver now and it has a small amount of wandering in FCP. I'd be more than willing to drop the extra cash for an H4N if I can just drop it in no problem. It'd be used for audio backup and capturing 5d wireless audio.

Can my Giant Squid lav mic work as an external mic for this thing as well?

Much thanks

Can my Giant Squid lav mic work as an external mic for this thing as well?
Yes, I've tested this with voice.

Due to the physical arrangments, the right-angle 3.5mm option from GS is more convenient than the standard 3.5mm plug, but, the standard works fine - just a little awkward.

There is a menu setting to turn on micpower / plugin power to the 3.5mm input.

Yes, I've tested this with voice.

Due to the physical arrangments, the right-angle 3.5mm option from GS is more convenient than the standard 3.5mm plug, but, the standard works fine - just a little awkward.

There is a menu setting to turn on micpower / plugin power to the 3.5mm input.

Awesome.

Now just wondering about the audio wandering.

Hi,

I am a new H4n user. I tried it with built-in mics in manual and auto level modes, I am very pleased... I also connected it to the line-out (tape-out) of the DJ board to Inputs 1 & 2 in auto level mode. When DJs play very loud (they almost always play very loud...) I got distortions: there was the min level 1 out of max 100 - can't go lower... Is there a way to switch sensitivity from mic to line level? Somehow, I did not find it... Or I just have to use pads or limiters/compression?..

You can set the record level to less than 1 when you upgrade to the new 1.40 firmware. Refer the the instruction manual for installation details.

Link to Latest Firmware (http://www.zoom.co.jp/english/news/news265/index.php)

Got an email from Zoom - they wrote to say that the timestamp issue I reported has been fixed in the system 1.4 they released today. Yay!

Download Software (http://www.zoom.co.jp/english/download/software/h4n.php)

Downloaded, installed, tested, and it basically works close enough for rough Time-of-day timecode sync. Vegas now is able to interpret the timestamp info and drop the file in the correct location on the timeline - see the attached screencap.

This is no Sound Devices 702T or even Tascam HD-P2... but for $350 this is one handy little recorder. I've gotten a lot of use out of mine, and now, glad to get usable rough TOD timecode.

BTW, if you were waiting for the wired remote, it is now in stock at the usual retailers.

Is there a way to switch sensitivity from mic to line level? Somehow, I did not find it... Or I just have to use pads or limiters/compression?..
If you came in via XLR, the original H4 had an undocumented feature: The combo 1/4"/XLR jack was mic level at the XLR, and line level at the 1/4".

I've not had a chance to test this with the H4n.

If this doesn't work out, the next step would be 30db pads, I suppose.

If you came in via XLR, the original H4 had an undocumented feature: The combo 1/4"/XLR jack was mic level at the XLR, and line level at the 1/4".

I've not had a chance to test this with the H4n.

If this doesn't work out, the next step would be 30db pads, I suppose.

I've heard it's the same with the H4n. This according to Neal Ewer's podcast (http://media.libsyn.com/media/bct/bct1344ZoomH4NOverview.mp3).

If you came in via XLR, the original H4 had an undocumented feature: The combo 1/4"/XLR jack was mic level at the XLR, and line level at the 1/4".

I've not had a chance to test this with the H4n.

If this doesn't work out, the next step would be 30db pads, I suppose.

Thank you, all!

I'll try 1/4", and since I used XLR - it was mic level... I also will upgrade to 1.40 version!

Randy: If by wandering do you mean "does it stay in sync with your video" then yes it does a very good job at that. I had a 1 hour clip in a musical I recorded and when I brought the H4N audio into the time line I was only a few frames off with the corresponding video from the carmera at the end of the hour.

A Zoom tech answered my question about how many mAmps of current is supplied for phantom power. At 48V, you get a total of 10 mAmps, 5 per channel, or any sum of 10, say a combination of 8 and 2 mA or 6 and 4 mA is also okay. I was concerned about some mics requiring more power to operate at peak performance, e.g., the NTG-3 requires a minimum of 5 mAmps per the Rode data sheet. So this is good news for the H4n!

Randy: If by wandering do you mean "does it stay in sync with your video" then yes it does a very good job at that. I had a 1 hour clip in a musical I recorded and when I brought the H4N audio into the time line I was only a few frames off with the corresponding video from the carmera at the end of the hour.

Thanks Peter. What camera did you use and at what frame rate did you shoot at?

Can't speak for Peter, but I've recorded 40 minute takes with no loss of sync using my HF100 at 30p. H4n was set to stereo mode 96kHz/24bit.

Randy: The video was shot with a Sony VX2000 (SD NTSC). Peter

I am curious of one thing though. I am planning to use the H4n to record PA stacks at receptions, and also use the onboard mics to record ambient reaction audio. I plan on using the 1/8 "Line Out" port to send a wireless feed to my camera for backup/sync purposes. I wonder if I am recording in 4 Channel mode (using 2 mics and built in mics), which signal is being sent out of the "Line Out". Is it a mixed down 4 channel or simply 2 channel from either the onboard mics or XLR/1/8 input. If it send the onboard mics only, then that would suck, and do me no good, as I would want the miced PA stack and not the crowd reaction onbaord mics. If it's a mixed down 4 channel, then that's ok.

Gonna have to test this one.

Any update on this Michael? Just to clarify, it DOES have the ability to send out sound from the 1/8 input (because it's just a headphone jack right?), either from the onboard channels, XLR channels or BOTH is not yet confirmed though? I'd like to know what you're findings are. I'm very close to pulling the trigger on this.

thanks

Randy: The video was shot with a Sony VX2000 (SD NTSC). Peter

Thanks Nate and Peter.

Any update on this Michael? Just to clarify, it DOES have the ability to send out sound from the 1/8 input (because it's just a headphone jack right?), either from the onboard channels, XLR channels or BOTH is not yet confirmed though? I'd like to know what you're findings are. I'm very close to pulling the trigger on this.

thanks

Sorry Randy I thought that I updated this info, as I forgot about this post.
To make a long story short, when using either normal stereo recording (onboard mics, or XLR inputs), or 4-channel recording (built in mics + XLR inputs or XLR inputs + 1/8 stereo input on back of H4n), the H4n will combine all recorded audio into a stereo signal outputted from the 1/8 "Line Out" on the H4n.

Since you are outputting the H4n though the 1/8 "Line Out" as a stereo mix, when you take that signal and use a wireless to transmit to your camera, then your wireless will muxed that stereo signal into a mono signal to your camera.

Very nice Michael, thanks for updating.

One last thing, do you find that there is much delay at the zoom recorder before being kicked out to the cam or is the audio 'pretty close' to not have to worry about that?


Cheers

Very nice Michael, thanks for updating.

One last thing, do you find that there is much delay at the zoom recorder before being kicked out to the cam or is the audio 'pretty close' to not have to worry about that?


Cheers
I didn't pay close enough attention to worry about it, but it seemed that it was pretty darn close to not worry about. Granted your not getting genlock audio video, but it's easy to adjust in post if needed.

Which BTW, the H4n keeps very good sync with audio over an hour, unlike previous Zoom recorders, which had sync problems due to cheap recording chips. Seems that Zoom used higher end chips, which is nice. The H4n won;t keep perfect sync, but what do you want from an inexpensive 4 track recorder. =)

I know this is a laughably obvious question, but I can't find an answer, either here, in the manual or on Zoom's website: When a file size reaches the 2GB limit, does a new file automatically start, and is there any loss/gap between files? Obviously this is a no-brainer in the camcorder world, but I was just wondering if it's the same with this unit.

According to this chart: Maximum Recordable Time (http://www.zoom.co.jp/english/products/h4n/sd.html), it's about 2 GB per hour (4 CH Mode, 24bit / 48kHz), and we often have to do shows of well over 2 hours with no intermission...

Yes. The audio will be split over multiple files, but there will be no gaps in the recording.

Sweet. Thanks for that; looks like this might be the recorder for me. If I can decipher the manual...

I recently did a test for using my Sound Devices mixer (outputs +4dBu line level) running the signal into the 1/4" inputs. Using the calibration signal (0dBu) at a recording level of "1" it hits "-8dBFS" on the H4n.

The mixer peaks at +22dBu, so I needed to readjust the H4n level to "0.6" to get the proper headroom.

Now, the "below 1" recording levels came in a firmware update, which makes me suspect that the levels are cheated with a compressor/limiter. I don't have a reliable way to test this, so I was curious if anyone knew anything about this.

Thanks,

Sweet. Thanks for that; looks like this might be the recorder for me. If I can decipher the manual...

Well - you can download it HERE (http://www.edirol.com/images/stories/products/r09hr/r09hr_manual_e1.pdf) and start reading now. :-D

Oh, no, trust me, I downloaded it a few days ago and have been valiantly trying to understand it ever since. There's a whole thread about the manual right here on this forum. I've criticized the Sony manuals in the past but this one reaches new heights of incomprehensibility.

Jim Andrada, in that thread, makes a great point about it being structured more like a Japanese manual than an English one, with bits of info scattered randomly about rather than flowing in a logical order, as we'd expect in an English one. But he says the actual translation is pretty good and I believe him.

I'm guessing it will take some hands-on playing with the unit with the manual open and a strong cup of coffee nearby...

Hi Adam - One thing I didn't perhaps consider enough when I looked at the manuals was whether the Japanese description was really clear enough in the first place. While the translation was fine, there's also probably also a second order structural issue with what's being said and or emphasized.

Japanese is not generally noted for its clarity of exposition, and a lot does tend to get left to the reader to figure out on their own - if anything, being overly precise is sometimes seen as insulting to the reader's intelligence. Engineering documents on the other hand can be incredibly precise.

And as a "by the way" I ran my comments about structure and clarity past my (Japanese) wife and she pretty much agreed.

Oh well, it can't be any harder to understand than Cineform's web site...