Ladies and Gentlemen,
I'm asking for assistance with a problem that has had me stumped for two months now, and with busy season (almost) upon us, I'm petrified that I'll have to revert to my VX2100s and leave my EX1s sitting in their boxes for another season. In order to make my problem and attempts to resolve it easy to read and absorb, I've laid this post out in sections.
I understand that everyone's busy (me too), but I'd really appreciate some help. I don't even know where to go to pay for the help I need, what it would cost, and what guarantee of success there'd be, but I'm hoping that one or more of you experts will be able to help me help myself.

DESIRED OBJECTIVE
Create NTSC SD DVD from footage shot on EX1 at 1440x1080i 29.97fps.
DVD needs to play well on a variety of TV/player combinations - CRT, LCD, Plasma, etc;
Material - Cheerleading competition. Wide variation in motion speeds.

PROBLEMS
Blurred motion - quite severe - much worse than anything I've seen in SD from SD footage.
Lines in brickwork shimmering or walking (sorry - I don't know the correct term to use)
White lines on floor (gymnasium) shimmering/walking when horizontal, jagged when "diagonal" across screen.
Tried viewing on DVD player + SD CRT TV connected by S-video; BluRay player + HD LCD TV connected via HDMI; DVD player + HD Plasma TV
DVD content not suitable for handing out to customers.

As was said in response to a post on a very similar problem in December:
"I'm still finding this problem amazing. I just render using sony vegas. Render to mpeg-2, burn with dvd architect. I get stunning quality."

I'm amazed too. So many people say that this should be simple. A few people are hitting the kind of problems that I have. I'm using Sony cameras and Sony software and started with "default" settings. It's all compatible - I should get good results. Many people are. I'm not. Therefore, us sufferers are doing something that's so obviously wrong, perhaps you experts out there aren't even daring to suggest it. Goodness knows how many posts I've read trying to find a solution...

I'm half-convinced that it's something to do with the settings I'm using to down-rez from HDV to SD, but cannot be sure. Also, I don't have a clue which settings...

SUMMARY
I've not tried everything (if I had, I would've solved the problem). I've tried to be selective. Read, think and try. Make incremental changes. etcetera etcetera. I've now run out of ideas, and much as I don't want to take the time of generous contributors here, I don't see many other alternatives.

All help gratefully received.

At the risk of making a long post longer, here's as much relevant information as I can think of.

SETUP:
Footage shot on Sony EX1 at 1440x1080i 29.97fps. Manual Iris, Steadyshot off (cam on tripod), most/all other settings "automatic". No Picture Profiles setup.
Cards copied to computer using Sony Clip Browser 2.00.00.438 (Last update 2008/07/01).
Footage exported to MXF for NLEs in Sony Clip Browser. (I copy then convert so I have two copies...)
Editing and rendering (to MPEG-2) in Sony Vegas Pro 8.0c (Build 260)
Authoring in DVD Architect 5.0a (Build 173)
Computers: Intel Q6600(?) quad core (6 weeks old) on ASUS Mobos with 2GB RAM, running XP SP3.

OBSERVATIONS:
Clips look beautiful in Sony Clip Browser (when paused as stills, and when playing) - slight blurring around fast moving limbs (expected).
Load into Vegas timeline - varying results in preview window, but none anywhere near as nice-looking as browser.
Render and create DVD - the above problems occur.
*** "Peculiar" Observation ***:
When viewing the *PAUSED* footage in the Preview window, "Preview/Full" quality seems to give the least bad picture. If I increase to "Good/Full" or "Best/Full", I get the blurred and ghosted arms and legs when playback is paused.

SETTINGS I'VE TRIED (incomplete list)
Project:
NTSC Widescreen DV template, HDV 1080 60i template.
Variations (tried after reading various forum posts) include selecting different field orders and pixel format (8-bit vs 32 bit)

Event Switches:
Reduce De-interlace flicker: tried on and off

Track FX:
Tried adding 0.001 & 0.002 Vertical only Gaussian blur (as per a couple of posts I read). This made the picture sharpness sub-VHS quality even though I used the minimum possible setting.

Render As:
(I realize that some of these merely override the project settings, and that setting these the same as the project settings possibly achieves nothing, but I'm trying to be thorough)
Project | Rendering Quality: I've tried Best, Good and Preview Video | Field Order: I've tried Lower, upper and none
Bit Rates etc: Variable; two pass; Max=9608000; Avg=5912000; Min=3544000 (as calculated in "Mark's Bitrate Calculator" recommended on this and other forums - yields a "Very Good Quality" rating)
Advanced Video | Allow Field-based Motion Compensation: Tried on and off
Advanced Video | Closed GOPs: Tried on and off

How long does your build in DVDA take, and what length program are you working with?

Is it possible that DVDA is recompressing your mpg that was output from Vegas? If so, this would be noted in the "Make DVD" message list in DVDA.

I'm a little concerned about 9.6Mbps as the peak bitrate. Although it is (barely) within the DVD standard, in practice a peak of 8.5Mbps has produced better results across more players. Too high a bitrate out of Vegas will cause DVDA to recompress, which *really* affects DVD quality.

The general settings you should be using:
*Match project settings to the properties of your media. If you're using the HDV (not the HQ) setting on your EX1, that would be 1440x1080, upper field first.
*Set render quality to "best" when downrezzing from HDV to SD for DVD.
Use the default Main Concept / DVDA template, except for the "best" render quality and bitrate settings.

When all else fails, try a workflow where DVDA does the compression to MPEG. Render out of Vegas as an avi, using the "HDV 1080-60i intermediate" template. Pull that file into DVDA, it will do the compression, check that against your previous DVDs.

PS: High motion sports like cheer are going to have better looking motion when shot 60i. Your post suggests that's what you did, but you might want to double-check this as well.

PPS: Are you *sure* you're working with HDV, not the EX1 HQ mode footage?

Your peculiar observation about the preview window is actually something I've experienced when editing AVCHD, its' something odd about the playback approach Vegas uses, looks horrid, but if you edit in lower settings and render, you shouldn't see anything in the final.

The only thing I saw was you say you're shooting 29.97fps - is that progressive? If you shoot progressive and render interlaced, you can have problems, seriously bad ghosting, etc... done that in SD actually myself, it's ugly.

You might try the DVDA template (in Vegas), widescreen 24p, or 30p? OR, shoot 1080i?

Render short sections, with various settings, then burn a sample DVD, document each setting carefully and see what plays back the best. There are so many settings, lots of places to cause trouble... where's the "easy" button when you need one!?

Keep at it, you'll get something that looks great I'm sure - I struggled to get HD 1920x1080 that would burn to a regular DVD and play back nicely on a BR player... turned out that a lower bitrate cured stuttering playback issues, had to alter the "standard" template a bit to get the best results.

Try shooting in 720p 60?

John

I use Edius 5 and Vegas 8 to edit but certainly find TMPGenc Xpress to do a much better job of encoding to SD than either. I either use HQ file from Edius or HDV from Vegas and let TMPGenc do the SD encoding complete with AC3 audio. You might try the trial and see if this solves your problem. I find Vegas to be the poorest of all the encoders I have at downconverting.
From your post I assume your using the EX1 in HDV compatible 25Mbps mode. I would stay in this mode and complete you edit and output in standard 1440x1080i HDV output template. Then let TMPGenc encode for SD DVD. I usually set limit at 8Mbps and set so that the disc is not much over the 4G mark on the template in TMPGenc. This gives the best compatibility for most players. TMPGenc is good in that it allows you to fine tune data rate and visually see the effect on how the disc is being filled.

Ron Evans

Thanks for suggestions thus far - "muchly" appreciated...
> SETH:
The program going to customers will be 87 minutes. I'm playing with a four minute selection of clips, but using compression settings for a 100 minute program calculated using "Mark's Bitrate Calculator" (recommended here and on other forums). I'll drop the max bitrate and see what happens.

The build in DVDA is taking seconds; no message is appearing, so no re-compress is taking place.

Sometime during the night (one of the countless times I woke up thinking about this), I wondered if I should try rendering to AVI. I'll try this today, along with other suggestions on this thread.

Regarding your PPS - I believe I am (but I begin to doubt myself when things are going this badly!) The clips in the "Project Media" window show
Frame rate: 29.970
Field Order: Upper Field First
Pixel Aspect: 1.333
Frame Size: 1440x1080
In the top right of the camera's screen, it says SP 1080/60i.

> DAVE:
From your first paragraph, I infer that I shouldn't obsess on the preview window quality. I'll try not to! (I'm the obsessive type, so may be a tough try!)

Regarding your 29.97fps/progressive question. See settings above in response to Seth's PPS.

You suggest using progressive templates - is this connected with your thought that I might have shot progressive? If not, I'll try it...

You've actually described what I'm doing - change a setting, render a short section, change a setting, render the same section,(Repeat a few times until I get impatient) burn a DVD and play it. With so many settings (and therefore so many combinations) I definitely need that "easy" button! (which I assumed was what the templates are...)
But yes - I"m going to keep on plugging away...

> JOHN:
Dave's post says that he got horrible results shooting progressive and rendering interlaced, so if I shot 720P I'd have to render progressive, and I don't know enough to know how good the "cheap" DVD players are at taking a progressive picture and interlacing it for "ye olde CRTs".
As well, this doesn't help me for the two jobs that I have on the bench at the moment. But I will research this suggestion for future jobs.

> RON
Your suggestion (about rendering out of Vegas in 1440x1080i HDV) aligns nicely with Seth's. I've seen many, many posts about TMPGenc, but haven't needed to try anything else in the past. I'll try Seth's suggestion and if I'm still in trouble, I'll take a look-see at TMPGenc.

Once again - thank you all. If you or anyone else have other suggestions, please share!

I get excellent sd/dvd from vegas and my EX1, 720/50p gives the best picture but all formats downconvert very good, people comment on the picture quality.
You can render progressive in vegas if you want, it'll make no difference as there's not a progressive burn template in architect,not for sd anyway, so it'll just get converted to interlaced there, so just let vegas do it.

I've posted a screen grab of my render template, here

How are your EX1 > SD-DVDs looking? - Page 3 - The Digital Video Information Network (http://www.dvinfo.net//conf/showthread.php?t=116196&page=3)

obviously change the resolution for ntsc.

As far as i know, the project preferences are for your viewing pleasure only, ie making footage playback correctly, the render template alone decides the final outcome.


Paul.

I get excellent sd/dvd from vegas and my EX1, 720/50p gives the best picture but all formats downconvert very good, people comment on the picture quality.
You can render progressive in vegas if you want, it'll make no difference as there's not a progressive burn template in architect,not for sd anyway, so it'll just get converted to interlaced there, so just let vegas do it.

I've posted a screen grab of my render template, here

How are your EX1 > SD-DVDs looking? - Page 3 - The Digital Video Information Network (http://www.dvinfo.net//conf/showthread.php?t=116196&page=3)

obviously change the resolution for ntsc.

As far as i know, the project preferences are for your viewing pleasure only, ie making footage playback correctly, the render template alone decides the final outcome.


Paul.

Why a frame rate of 25.000 Paul?

John

Why a frame rate of 25.000 Paul?

He's in the UK so he's dealing with PAL, not NTSC.

He's in the UK so he's dealing with PAL, not NTSC.

Ah, should have looked at his profile. Thanks.

John

There's one important project setting that has not been mentioned, and it definitely does affect the actual render, not just the preview.

That is the deinterlacer. When you are converting HD to SD you must choose one of the deinterlacer choices in project properies, "blend" or "interpolate", versus the default "none".

Yes, even when going from interlaced HD to interlaced SD, Vegas still needs this set for the scaling to SD to look correct.

What is yours set at? Try blend and let us know what happens.

That is the deinterlacer. When you are converting HD to SD you must choose one of the deinterlacer choices in project properies, "blend" or "interpolate", versus the default "none".

Yes, even when going from interlaced HD to interlaced SD, Vegas still needs this set for the scaling to SD to look correct.


I think this might even be true for any effects in Vegas as it has to have a progressive frame to create the effects. When doing my tests between getting Vegas or Edius or TMPGenc to downconvert I tried all the settings and none are as good as TMPGenc in downconverting though Edius was close. Setting to "none" was of course really bad. Setting the render to Best solved some of these problems though.

Ron Evans

Quick update - I'm messing with the de-interlacing options, and seems to have a decent looking picture on my 40" Samsung LCD TV. Still not looking good on CRT, so need to re-check my test settings and do more testing before providing a fuller report.
Thanks all for your continiung interest & support.

Here's an update on my testing yesterday & this morning, following advice offered.

I observed little or no improvement from adding vertical gaussian blur to an otherwise "vanilla" 720x480 Widescreen template.
Rendering to AVI using the HDV 1080-60i intermediate template in Vegas, then re-rendering the AVI to MPEG-2 in Vegas showed some improvement, though not enough. My one attempt at rendering to AVI and letting DVDA compress to MPEG-2 was spectacularly unsuccessful (could be I screwed up the field order settings in Vegas).

Eugene's suggestion is what has partly hit the mark. I received a similar suggestion from a fellow member of the Calgary Professional Videographer's Association. He said (and I quote)"All NLEs have difficulty with this. In general it is difficult to take interlaced HD video and reduce it to SD resolution and maintain acceptable quality."
He says that the solution is to de-interlace the HD video PRIOR to scaling it. He described how it's done in Premiere, and also provided another method - "framerserving" using two freeware products - Debugmode and AVISynth.

So... I tried a few different combinations within Vegas, and I now have a nice looking picture on my 40" Samsung LCD TV + Samsung Bluray player.
HOWEVER - on a 27" Sony CRT TV + Panasonic DVD player connected with S-video, the white lines on the (gymnasium) floor and some other narrow lines are still alive and/or jaggy. Other problems (e.g. lines in gym wall blockwork "walking", fast motion ghosting etc) seem to have gone away.
Clearly, I need to do some more work.

Here's what I did to get the nice pic on LCD TV.
> Selected "HDV 1080 60i" PROJECT template and changed de-interlace method to "Blend"
> Selected the "NTSC DVD Architect Widescreen" RENDER template, and changed Field Order to "None (Progressive"). > (I also dropped the bitrates as per Seth's suggestion. I used 8M, 6M, 192K).
My 4mins 9secs sample rendered in 10:19 (computer specs in post#1 above) with no effects/filters - just one video track.
> Authored using standard 720x480 WS DVD settings in DVD Architect.
Prepare time for my trial DVD (four x four-minute trials) was seconds, so DVDA appears not to do anything with the MPEG-2 files that it receives (I was half-expecting it to interlace them, but what do I know...)

Nest steps and QUESTIONS:
a) Try to verify that the settings I used are causing Vegas to de-interlace PRIOR to scaling the material. (I'm not sure how I'm going to do that yet).
b) Download "Debugmode" and "AVISynth" and see how they work, then see what I can build.
c) Try and find out if downscaled HDV footage can be played on an SD CRT TV with no jaggies in diagonal lines and no shimmering in horizontal lines.

If anyone knows the answers to a) and c) above (or knows where I can find the answers), please pipe in.

Once again, thanks for your interest - hoping someone out there has the final(?) piece of the puzzle.

Why did you render to progressive? I would think that would cause the CRT issues you describe.

Is it possible you could convert the original footage using a demo of a Cineform product and see if that solves your problem?

Hi Reg

I'm also a PAL user but have you tried Rendering as "Video for Windows (*.avi)" with the "NTSC DV Widescreen" template. I've been getting good SD reproduction using the PAL equivalent

Thanks for the additional input guys!

Eugene: I tried both interlaced and progressive. The progressive looks great on a digital connection, and not so good on analogue. (This is based on connecting a regular DVD player to my LCD TV via S-video.) Interlaced looked OK on an analogue connection and quite poor on digital. I didn't do additional tests to try and determine why (time and energy both ran out).
For the interlaced render, I used the standard "NTSC DVD Architect Widescreen" template with the same bitrate modifications that I did for my other tests. On balance, I felt that the (Progressive) artifacts on the analogue connection were less unacceptable than the (interlaced) artifacts on the digital connection.

Jeff: I hadn't thought of that option. I should give that a try (probably won't be until Thursday though - a (technical writing) contract has got me tied up Tuesday and Wednesday.)

Rob: I haven't tried that option yet - another option for Thursday I guess! I did try the AVI route but with a different template. It's definitely worth another stab.

I still have the TMPGenc option to explore, and the FrameServer/AVISynth option. However this latter option looks to be more than I can get my addled brain around in the time available, so will probably get the best result I can from the suggestions received, and attempt to understand Frameserver/AVISynth later.

I do have one more question (which format should I shoot in with the EX1 to down-rez EASILY to SD?) but I'll open a new thread for that one.

Once again - thanks.

Eugene: I tried both interlaced and progressive. The progressive looks great on a digital connection, and not so good on analogue. (This is based on connecting a regular DVD player to my LCD TV via S-video.) Interlaced looked OK on an analogue connection and quite poor on digital. I didn't do additional tests to try and determine why (time and energy both ran out).
For the interlaced render, I used the standard "NTSC DVD Architect Widescreen" template with the same bitrate modifications that I did for my other tests. On balance, I felt that the (Progressive) artifacts on the analogue connection were less unacceptable than the (interlaced) artifacts on the digital connection.


Unfortunately, I don't think you will ever get them looking equally good on LCD and a CRT, that's not really possible.

It's just like why it is with good reason that many reviews and users will point out that SD NEVER looks as good on a HD LCD monitor as it does on a SD LCD monitor.

It depends upon the quality of the LCD monitor's hardware deinterlacer and scaler to determine the final quality of any interlaced sources.

For instance, I've watched some HD interlaced downscaled to SD interlaced jobs of mine on a good CRT, and they look fine. I've then watched them on a videographer friend of mine's 46" Sony Bravia, which has a very good deinterlacer and scaler in it. I was disturbed by all the stairstepping I saw on diagonal lines, especially for certain colors. My friend works for our local NBC affiliate, and is very picky on his video quality, so I pointed it out to him. He told me that's to be expected on any SD played on a HD monitor, especially with interlaced footage, and people don't even notice it. And remember, that's how 100% of broadcast SD is.

I also did some projects in 30p. They look perfect on my computer's LCD screens in playback, but there is some noticable judder when I play them on a CRT TV.

These are just the nature and limitations of working in different playback monitor types.

Contrary to what some may recommend, unless I have a real reason to shoot a project in HD, if my only delivery medium is planned to be SD, I'm going to be shooting and editing in SD. One of the other reasons being one normally turns the sharpness up a bit in SD and down in HD, and when you downconvert HD to SD, you're not going to be getting that extra sharpness of SD you may expect and want.

Unfortunately, I don't think you will ever get them looking equally good on LCD and a CRT, that's not really possible.

It's just like why it is with good reason that many reviews and users will point out that SD NEVER looks as good on a HD LCD monitor as it does on a SD LCD monitor.

It depends upon the quality of the LCD monitor's hardware deinterlacer and scaler to determine the final quality of any interlaced sources.


Thanks for this Eugene. That has been my personal observation, and I thought that might be the case generally (I try not to read many reviews at the moment, because they usually make me want to spend more money!), but thought I could get it better than it is.
I have no contacts in TV or big production houses, so I have to rely on my local videographers association and these forums for knowledge exchange.

I've shown the video to a number of people (the kind of people who will buy these videos), and they don't spot the fault until I point it out to them, and then they say "don't worry Reg..."

When it comes to wedding season, I'll make sure I ask the bride and groom what kind of TV system they want their video optimized for (I'll use more B&G-friendly language of course!) and shoot and edit accordingly.

I think my marketing pitch is going to include some "TV technology is in a period of transition" type blurb in the future...
Once more, thank you.

With all the discussion here and also a post on the Canopus Forum that was similar I set about looking at what I have done too. I have a scene in one of my videos that comes from an FX1 in HDV slow zoom in where the floor is large tiles at a diagonal to the camera so the edges are at about 45degrees. In the HD version the edges remain smooth during the zoom, in the downconvert they shimmer while zooming but have no jaggies when zooming stops. It doesn't matter which method I use to downconvert these artifacts are there. So I then went to the tape and played back directly to my i'Art CRT so the camera did the downconvert to composite. The same artifacts were there!!!! I tried converting to Cineform and no change.
I then looked at a hockey game I had just shot of my grandson with my SR11, lots of diagonal lines on the ice and lots of waving hockey stick( kids are only 5 and 6 years old),lots of pans and zooms. I felt sure this would have the same artifacts. Converted with Cineform and then downconverted with Edius to SD DV file and played back through my Sony HC96 to the i'ART. To my surprise there were no artifacts and the video looked really good. There were also no artifacts when played from the camera either. I will now try and do a side by side of the FX1 and SR11 to see if there is a real difference between downconverting HDV and 1920x1080 AVCHD. Will report back in a few days.
I also agree that until these artifacts are pointed out most people will not see them especially if they have a HD set and normally watch SD programming!!!

Ron Evans

My experience here is that using SD player and SD-TV with downconverted amterials , no problem. The same when playing downconverted materials from computer to HD TV.

But in some cases there'll be a problem with downconverted materials when using SD DVD-player on a HD-TV. You should try a regular SD DVD bought in a DVD-shop. Play it on your SD player and view it on your HD TV. I did it, and the picture was really bad.

I used the whole Christmas time and new year time a few monts ago to solve this problem. I didn't come any way. The final results wasn't any better than when I started. A few weeks ago I bought a Sony S350 Blu-Ray player. I hoped this would solve the problem, It didn't.

My opinion is that there is no way around this problem. Some SD DVD players with some HD TV's would have problems to play downconverted materials in a good quality.

Try shooting in 720p 60?
John

This is another problem. When you render to 720p30 for MP4 files, the motion is quite blurred. If you switch the clip Properties to turn off Resampling, there is no motion blur. I haven't tried rendering 720p60to 480i60, though.

I have done some more tests with the FX1 and the SR11. Tried with several high contrast diagonal lines. I didn't get the shimmer I have on the video I mentioned in my previous post but the SR11 did produce a smoother downconvert. Still can't understand why though.

Ron Evans