I just noticed that the AGC is disabled while the shutter speed is locked.

I heard it recommended that the shutter be locked at 1/30? What is the danger? Will the camera shoot at 1/15??

I preparing for a overseas documentary - it will be three weeks of run and gun - some dark locations.

What do you guys recommend? Maybe just release the shutter lock when the AGC is needed?
Some pratical tips would be appreciated. I have been practicing since I got the camera two weeks ago. The camera has its limitations - but the image is incredible - might do justice to Africa!
Please any info on "general" to "run and gun" shooting as far as the AE settings. ("bring your vx-2000" is not acceptable)

-Steve

My advice, lock the exposure at 1/30, f2 (point at darkness and it will automatically adjust to that setting). Than use the necessary ND filters (and/or polarizer if you shoot outside) to have the image you need. I know it is teedious but it works very well. One other thing: do disable automatic gain control, even if you do run and gun, you better control the overall image, not let it automatically adjust. This camera reacts very badly to sudden changes, it is better that you evaluate prior to the shoot your needs in terms of exposure. Better to underexpose a bit with this camera. The LCD gives a very good idea of your image, get used to it and use it as much as possible. I did extensive followups of people in different environnements and a controlled exposure gives much better results anyway you put it. There are no secrets, experiment with it while you have some time. This camera can produce outstanding images but rarely in any automatic mode.

Of course, it's my methodology, this is to be experimented by you to see if it fits...

Good luck,

If you shoot into a bright area the shot then it tends to crush like crazy. Here is an example of what we are talking about.

http://www.advancedcomputerdesigns.com/vette.m2t

Notice as the car move into bright area it almost completely washes out. I have yet to workout how to get around this but I still not ready to give up and I am going to give some of Eric's tips a try.

If it were me: I would go out and shoot a tons of footage under different lighting conditions prior to your trip. After you shoot your footage load them up on a PC and check out on a large monitor. The build in LCD just does not hack it for analyzing shots under outdoor conditions. If your shooting outdoors pray for overcast or avoid conditions like above.

As Eric said be sure you should stock up on is a good set of ND filter and a polarizer. Go out and shoot a LOT of footage prior to your trip and get comfortable with the camera.


Good Luck!
Mike

<<<-- Originally posted by Eric Bilodeau : My advice, lock the exposure at 1/30, f2 (point at darkness and it will automatically adjust to that setting).
-->>>

If you lock exposure--it can't adjust. It will be wide open at 1/30th. Yes, you could now use ND to get an image--but no one would work that way. Especially in the field!

He asked a simple question. If it's dark, the shutter-speed will be 1/60th or under. So no need to lock shutter speed. Hence he can use AGC to increase image brightness.

Now he can use the exposure control to lock exposure.

Most of all he needs my Shooting Guide.

If it is dark as Steve Mullen suggested it is true that the shutter won't go up so no need to lock it. I still would not use AGC though but it is my point of view.

The exposure lock works, all the images I posted where locked AE at 1/30 f2 or 1/60 f2. Of course if you go from a basement without light to the outside it won't be a good idea, I guess you figured out by yourself but the auto adjustment still won't make it much better, there will be a "in between" zone where image will be a wash out before it adjusts.

When you shoot field images you have to make a statement: do I want washed out areas and comfortably visible dark ones or nice bright areas with darker areas where you might not discern everything. you cannot have a perfect both without sacrificing image (unless there is not much difference between the two areas of course). Mike's example is a good one, the corvette becomes washed out but notice that the leaves and ground where already washed in the bright area. I love high contrast so dark areas don't bother me, I prefer to have control over the bright areas since the wash out (combined with the edge artefacting) will look much cheaper than darken shadows with a good overall balance. Once again this is my feeling of it, I don't pretend to know "the way", I just go my way...

<<<--Most of all he needs my Shooting Guide. -->>>
Are you putting it on sale by itself?

<<<-- Originally posted by Eric Bilodeau : The exposure lock works, all the images I posted where locked AE at 1/30 f2 or 1/60 f2. -->>

What do you mean by Exposure Lock? You are holding the EC control for 2 seconds while keeping the camera in the dark? That's the only Exposure Lock possible?

Or do you mean you lock the Shutter-speed? If so, that's not an exposure lock. You are simply setting shutter priority mode. The AE is still active and setting the exposure.

<<<-- Originally posted by Jose Cavazos : <<<--Most of all he needs my Shooting Guide. -->>>
Are you putting it on sale by itself? -->>>

Yes. It just went on sale. See my site.

Eric pretty much nailed it in his original post. Use ND filters to force the shutter speed down to 1/60 or 1/30, then lock the exposure by holding that button down until the "L" comes on.

If the shot is low contrast, you should be fine at 0. As the image gets more contrasty, start putting in some bias to underexpose, I use -1 to -3 depending on how bad the ratio of darkest to lightest is.

Remember, once a highlight blows out, it is gone forever and nothing in post can recover that detail. However, as crushed as the blacks look on this camera, there is still detail in those shadows that can be brought up later.

I am not crazy about video gain, but the AGC circuit on this camera is pretty quiet. I wouldn't leave it on, because you don't want some automatic function mucking up your project. But I would switch it in on a "as needed" basis. I did a project for the Air Force JAG, and shot some tests of a night scene. I did them with and without gain, and I actually preferred the shots with gain.

Jay

<<<-- Originally posted by Jay Nemeth : Eric pretty much nailed it in his original post. Use ND filters to force the shutter speed down to 1/60 or 1/30, then lock the exposure by holding that button down until the "L" comes on.

If you understand HOW the camera works you'll realize that the firmware is such that you can't really force shutter under 1/60th FOR SURE. Depending on the current light level it may alter either iris or shutter -- or both-- to get a new exposure. You don't know what it does.

<<<-- Originally posted by Eric Bilodeau : When you shoot field images you have to make a statement: do I want washed out areas and comfortably visible dark ones or nice bright areas with darker areas where you might not discern everything. -->>>

I prefer the latter well - you still say lock 1/30 and F2 + ND is the best way get this result?

Cant get the "L" on -- whats the procedure?
So you can still bias the AE with it locked??
If so, I see the advantage to exposure lock.

-Steve

I think folks need to be more specific in what they describe.

I think the Exposure Control (with Lock) is being confused with setting Shutter Priority Mode.

I can't follow what Eric is saying.

<<<-- Originally posted by Steve Mullen : If you understand HOW the camera works you'll realize that the firmware is such that you can't really force shutter under 1/60th FOR SURE. -->>>

Well I understand HOW my camera ( HD1 ) works, although I have no direct experience with the HD10. Yes, the camera has a mind of it's own when it comes up with a shutter, aperture combination, but my camera will always give me a 1/30th with anything a 5.6 or lower. For example, if I light a scene or put in enough ND to give me a 1/30th and f2, and then I add some light or remove ND, it will iris down all the way to 5.6 BEFORE it will let me have 1/60 as a shutter.

This was somewhat problematic during our short since I really wanted to shoot at 1/60. If the camera came up with 1/30 and an f4, I would go into shutter priority and switch to 1/60, and the camera would now open up a stop to f2.8. I would exit the shutter/aperture priority mode and then lock the exposure. Momentarily cycling through shutter/aperture mode I could see that the camera held 1/60 and 2.8. BUT......after a few minutes, another check showed that even with LOCK "on" the camera had changed back to 1/30 and f4, completely imperceptibly to those watching the monitor.

Trust me Steve, my living is based on an artistic and scientific understanding of HOW light and optics and mechanics intermingle to create images on various media. It doesn't take long between testing and real world use to see the personality of this camera.

I can for sure, make shutter settings of 1/30 anytime in any situation. On the contrary, I can not get 1/60 on a regular basis.

Jay

First, for one of the posters--you cannot set both speed and aprture at the same time.

Second, you can't SEE both speed and iris readouts at the SAME time. So all these references to 1/30th AND f/2 -- may or may not be valid.

I too tried the "cycle through the modes" trick to see if I could get BOTH readings. HOWEVER:

You only see a reading when you ENTER either Shutter Priority OR Aperture mode. And, the very act of entering either mode may or may not change what the settings were before you entered the mode. And as you step through the modes, entering each one in turn.

The uncertainty prinicipal is at work here.

Moreover, the aperture varies continuosly from 1/30th upward. And the f-stop varies continuously. A tiny change in light can flip the readout from one whole number to the other. And it's hard to press a button without bumping the cameraand causing a tiny light change.

And, as you found it slowly re-adjusts while shooting!

Of course, I also spent time by myself and with JVC trying figure it out. Then JVC contacted Japan and got the algorithm. Once I had it, I realized there was little point in playing games with ND filters and button pressing.

That's what the data from your experiment is telling you. If your theory worked 100% you would be able to get 1/60th--which is the speed I prefer and you wanted. You are getting a result at a limit condition. And, I suspect that is what Eric is doing by too--although exactly what he's doing isn't clear to me.

Steve,

I never claimed anyone could set both, this is my single biggest complaint about this camera. What I described is a way, on my HD1, using ND filters and the exposure "lock" button to always get a 1/30th shutter speed.

And it is possible to "see" both values when using the "priority" mode. It is very simple to set one item and "look" at the other. Enter Shutter mode, it flashes for a moment then the display turns solid. You can now adjust the shutter to what ever you like, let's say 1/60. Now push the shutter/aperture button again to switch to Aperture. It too will flash, now quickly read this value, this is the other setting the camera had to "compute". Do not let the display turn solid, or you will now have entered the Aperture priority mode!

In this 1.5 seconds while you are looking at the flashing aperture, you still have the shutter locked. Now quickly press the button again and nothing will be displayed, DO NOT WAIT OR YOU WILL LOSE YOUR SHUTTER SETTING! Press the button once more, and you will be back to the solid display of your shutter, which has remained locked.

That button has three modes, full auto, shutter pri., and aperture pri. You are simply stepping through these without waiting long enough for one to take over.

You can do the same with the aperture priority, set an f stop and push the button twice to step through "full auto (no display) and then shutter. Quickly look at the flashing value the camera computed for the shutter, but don't look very long or it will switch priority. Press the button again to return to the solid f-stop setting.

This process is a huge pain in the a** and it's comical that JVC has us jumping through hoops like circus dogs, but this method absolutely works for knowing what the other value is.

A full set of NDs is the only way to get close to the shutter / aperture values you want. I agree with you, it isn't 100 percent accurate due to the camera drifting when using the exposure "lock" button versus one of the priority modes.

Jay

Quite the method I use, I let Shutter/iris adjust automatically, when it is still I lock AE. Afterwards, whatever you shoot it won't automatically adjust to different lighting environnements. The fact is it works, that is all there is to say about it, I personnaly don't care if it is not a normal way since it is the way I found that suits my needs. If it did not work I would not give advice about it. Of course, very high lighting differences might be a pain when it is locked but than again these cameras are anything but "operational perfect". It gets me the images I want, I can manage with that. What you see is what you get.

Steve, I also agree with Jay that if you cycle through the modes quickly enough, they let you read the blinking reading without actually switching priority to that mode.

Jay's method doesn't get him 1/60th which is the better speed because it equal to a 180-degree shutter.

And yes you can read SOMETHING by cycling but you are ASSUMING it is the past values.

Now cycle through again

and again

Way too often you get different values each time! So which set are true?

And, why do they change?

Plus the fact the values change overtime while you are shooting. Why does it do this? Does it have a preferred mode of operation?

In short, there are too many assumptions -- all ones I too made before discarding this -- that I prefer to stay with HOW TO SHOOT based upon what the I know the camera is doing.

<<<-- Originally posted by Eric Bilodeau : Quite the method I use, I let Shutter/iris adjust automatically, when it is still I lock AE. -->>>

Eric, you use this in which mode, auto or "manual?"

heath

I do all my adjustments while cycling in manual mode pointing at a still source of light. With a dark source, the camera (HD10) will be still at 1/30, f2. After it has reached its auto adjustment (it is actually fast), the iris shutter values will not change . Simply put, the automatic mode is not hunting 24/7, once it has reached a ratio that corresponds to a scene's overall light it stays still until light changes, so it is not true that you get different values all the time. After that you must quit Shutter/iris priority modes to get back to auto (it will not change providing your light source is still). You press AE once than a second time until the "L" appears. Your AE (automatic exposure) control is locked. Of course, if your AE is not set to 0 it will adjust a little to important changes in lighting conditions. If your AE is set to 0 it will remain as it was when locked whatever the light changes. This is not an assumption, I tested it over and over and it simply works. It is not at all complicated or illogical: it adjusts automatically to a scene, than you lock the automatic exposure control to an adjustment range you choose(from -10 to +10). In controlled environnement, lock it to 0, when you do field shooting, test the level of AE, ideally keep it low (from -3 to +3).

Thanks, Eric. We'll give it a shot in 2.5 weeks for our short film.

heath

<<<-- Originally posted by Eric Bilodeau : I do all my adjustments while cycling in manual mode pointing at a still source of light. -->


"still source"? In the field?

<-- After that you must quit Shutter/iris priority modes to get back to auto (it will not change providing your light source is still). -->

After what?
When did you enter Shutter/iris priority modes?


<-- You press AE once than a second time until the "L" appears. -->

You mean the Exposure Control dial, right? And you must press and HOLD.


<-- If your AE is set to 0 it will remain as it was when locked whatever the light changes. This is not an assumption, I tested it over and over and it simply works. -->>

No dispute, but you have no idea what the shutter-speed is.

And, because of the low light latitude the slightest increase in brightness will cause overexposure.

Now I'm more confused...

heath

<<<-- Originally posted by Steve Mullen : <<<-- Originally posted by Eric Bilodeau : I do all my adjustments while cycling in manual mode pointing at a still source of light. -->


"still source"? In the field?

<-- After that you must quit Shutter/iris priority modes to get back to auto (it will not change providing your light source is still). -->

After what?
When did you enter Shutter/iris priority modes?


<-- You press AE once than a second time until the "L" appears. -->

You mean the Exposure Control dial, right? And you must press and HOLD.


<-- If your AE is set to 0 it will remain as it was when locked whatever the light changes. This is not an assumption, I tested it over and over and it simply works. -->>

No dispute, but you have no idea what the shutter-speed is.

And, because of the low light latitude the slightest increase in brightness will cause overexposure. -->>>

Ok,

If the exposure bias is 0 and you press the exposure button a second time and hold it, it will lock the exposure. If it is 1/30th shutter and and a very low f-stop, the numbers will stay constant. If it is a brighter scene, or you are not using ND filters to make the iris open up, then just because the exposure is locked does not mean the shutter and iris will stay the same. You could lock it at 1/60 and f5.6, but later on the camera may have changed to 1/125 and f4. Notice that the apparent brightness of the image does not change, because as the shutter went up, the aperture opened to compensate.

If you set the bias to -2, and wait for the camera to adjust, and then lock, it too will stay at the same apparent brightness. Again, unless you are near wide open, and at a slower shutter, there is no guarantee the combination of shutter and iris will hold, but they will offset each other so the image is the same brightness.

Does everyone agree this is the way this works? It is certainly the way it works on my camera.

I have noticed that it is important to let the camera settle in before pushing the "lock" button or the exposure WILL drift even though the "L" is displayed. For example, aim camera at something, push exposure button, it reads "0", now turn it down to -6 and immediately push the button again for "lock". The camera will continue to make adjustments until it decides on something that is usually not what you want.

I hope it was clear in my previous post that I was explaining a way to always get 1/30th shutter speed, and not that I thought you could lock any shutter speed in with the exposure lock. If it did that, I would have had the 1/60th shutter I wanted for our project.

There are really three things you can do:

1: You can lock a shutter speed, but the Aperture is automatic.

2: You can lock an Aperture setting, but the shutter will change automatically.

3: You can lock the Exposure, or the brightness of a scene, but the camera will pick the combination of shutter speed and aperture f-stop. UNLESS, you shoot in low light or use NDs so you are at the low end of the scale, then you know the shutter and f-stop won't change because there is no more wiggle room.

I don't want a shutter faster than 1/60 and I want the lowest f-stop possible to reduce my DOF, so number 3 works best for me.

Use ND filters!

Jay

<<<-- Originally posted by Jay Nemeth

If the exposure bias is 0 and you press the exposure button a second time and hold it, it will lock the exposure. If it is 1/30th shutter and and a very low f-stop, the numbers will stay constant. -->>

YOU ARE RIGHT -- the speed will not increase until you get to f/8 -- according to JVC. So IF you want 1/30th and can keep the light in the range from f/2 to f/8 -- 3 stops -- then you can both avoid eye-tracking, bias exposure, and lock exposure.

Very Clever!

On a bright sunny day in a high contrast situation -- what ND do you use?

On a bright sunny day in a shadow (lower contrast) -- what ND do you use?

On an bright overcast day?


BUT how do you know the f stop is under f/8 when you trying ND filters?


By the way, you should be able to handle 4 stops of light range because at f/8 -- the next stop more light SHOULD only increase speed to 1/60th.

Thus:
30 -- f/2
30 -- f/4
30 -- 5.6
30 -- f/8
60 -- f/8

I haven't thought about what EFFECT a negative bias would make. I think will simply force exposure downwards from 60 -- f/8. So -3 would yield 30 -- f/8.

Right?

What JVC should have done is alter the firmware speed limit from 250 to 60 and increase the limit for the iris from 8 to 16. Such a simple programming change that JVC admits should be able to be done. Then we would have:

30 -- f/2
30 -- f/4
30 -- 5.6
30 -- f/8
60 -- f/8
60 -- f/11
60 -- f/16

A full 6 stops!

<<<-- Originally posted by Jay Nemeth : Ok,

3: You can lock the Exposure, or the brightness of a scene, but the camera will pick the combination of shutter speed and aperture f-stop. UNLESS, you shoot in low light or use NDs so you are at the low end of the scale, then you know the shutter and f-stop won't change because there is no more wiggle room.

I don't want a shutter faster than 1/60 and I want the lowest f-stop possible to reduce my DOF, so number 3 works best for me.

Use ND filters!

Jay -->>>


Thanks for your insightful post. While in Exposure lock, is there a way to monitor where the shutter and aperture settings are? I tried scrolling through "P.AE" and it always read "F2" and "1/30" even when pointing at a bright source.

Also, can you give us the basic ND formula you use for different conditions?
I just have a .6
thanks

Steve

Exterior sunlight I use at least an N1.2 plus a polarizer for 6 stops of light reduction. This should be a 16x ND in consumer filters with a Pola or a 64x without the Pola. Use enough ND to get the aperture down to 5.6 with the 1/60 shutter. On overcast days you can remove a couple of stops of ND. I haven't recorded exactly how much filtration I use, this is just from memory.

Leave the camera in auto mode, and look at the aperture settings by cycling through the shutter/aperture button. You will see the camera open up as you add more ND. I really don't have a formula for NDs, I carry 2 complete sets and just keep adding until I get the right stop. It really would be good to have one really heavy ND like a N1.8 or 64X so you don't have to have multiple peices of glass in front of the lens to degrade the image.

Those tables you listed pretty much match what I'm finding. I agree, the formula should be changed. A "NORMAL" shutter of 1/60 (equivalent to a 180 deg. shutter which the human eye finds natural) should hold as long as possible until the camera hits the highest f-stop. Only then, should the shutter speed increase. The reality is, the camera should have had an internal ND filter like the VX 1000, 2000, DVX100, PD150 etc.

Jay