Has anyone else had trouble playing back Panasonic AY-DVM83EB mini DV tapes? I've shot approximately thirty of them in combination with Sony DV Excellence (DVM60EX2) for a large project and am having trouble in the post production.

Eric,

For what it's worth, it seems widely accepted that using Sony and Panasonic tapes interchangeably will give you head clogs and other problems unless you thoroughly clean your heads in between brands. Reason: the two brands use different lubricants that don't get along well on your heads. -Many- people have eventually run into troubles mixing the tapes.

The general guidance would be to (1) get a head cleaning tape and use it on your deck and camera, and (2) pick an' stick with one brand of tape. Panasonic is probably the most popular brand, partly because it uses a dry lubricant.

Ken,

Thanks for your message. Do you know other people who have been affected by this problem and what solutions they have found to fix the playback of already recorded tapes?

Eric

Ken's comments are right on. In addition, if the issue is just playback, try cleaning the heads or use another deck/camera.

If the problem happened during recording, it might be possible to recover your video by using a Sony deck -- they seem to be better at recovering marginal data. Specifically, a deck with Dynamic Motion Control, such as the DSR-2000, has been known to work wonders. The importance of your footage will likely determine how far you want go to go with this.

I use the Panasonic tapes exclusively, particularly the MQ Master series. They're among the best you can get.

I'm sure someone who's experienced a similar problem will chime-in. For starters,

1. Have you cleaned your deck's /cam's heads with a cleaning tape (essential)?
2. Are you playing back the tapes in the camera (used to shoot the footage), a deck or a different camera.
3. What camera did you use and format is the footage (SP or LP)?
4. -Very specifically- what problems are you having?

These answers will help everyone help you.

Thanks to both of you.

Vic
the information about the "Dynamic Motion Control" on the DSR-2000 is especially encouraging. I'll tell the editors to try it.

Ken,
In answer to your questions:

I have a Canon XL1 and used it as my primary playback machine. I always shoot SP.

I started taping a distance learning series in Sept.2000. I needed long playing tapes so I bought the 83 minute panasonic stock from a store I had done business with for 20 years. I had bought all of my video cameras and decks from them. I asked about the stock but there were no reported problems. I was diligent about cleaning heads and did it regularly (every 6 hours or so i.e., every time I shot the all-day shoots in the series). But I definitely mixed tapes during those days. I often, but not always, cleaned the heads when I changed stocks. By the last shoots in the series, that's the way I timed the cleaning.

I didn't detect a problem, because the tapes played well. The burn-in VHS dubs made days after the taping are fine.

I also used a small Sony GV-D300 for playing back the Sony DV Excellence tapes I used on another project, but one day in January 2002, it clogged up after playing just 3 of these recorded Panasonic tapes. I couldn't even rewind. The Sony lab report came back saying there were excessive tape particles on many parts in the tape path. Two weeks later, the XL1's drum failed while I was shooting in Ethiopia. I sent it to Canon and it's fixed.

After that, while I was busy editing some of the shows, people in another editing house discovered they couldn't play the tapes on their machines (I'll find out what models they have). And they no longer play properly on my Canon (or Sony).

I'm worried that they won't play on any machine.
That's the long story. Thanks for the responses. They are much appreciated.

<<<-- Originally posted by KenTanaka : Eric,

<<<For what it's worth, it seems widely accepted that using Sony and Panasonic tapes interchangeably will give you head clogs and other problems unless you thoroughly clean your heads in between brands. Reason: the two brands use different lubricants that don't get along well on your heads<<<

Any comments on the many other mini DV tapes. (fuji, maxell, etc.)...do they fall into one camp or the other?
An aside - I've used both "Excellence" and "Premium" from Sony (and neither have the scene record capability) but no has been able to detail ther difference except the price!

I've waited for the editing house to get back to me about using a machine like a Sony DSR 2000 with "Dynamic Motion Control" and have not heard back. I'll email them today.

I've never used Maxell or Fuji, but a friend of mine tried a Fuji mini-DV tape and had some trouble. He could record, but the tape seemed to jam on playback. I don't know what this means. Could have simply been a bad cassette.

Does anyone know when information about the incompatibility issue between tape stocks first emerged? The I heard about it was in the spring of 2001. By then it was already too late for me.

The tape issue was primarily in evidence when the format was first introduced. ME was just getting settled from the Hi8 days and basically, Panasonic and Sony were using different lubricants which caused a chemical reaction leaving some stick residue on the heads.

Sony was in very short supply at the time and most Sony camcorder buyers, who started with the free cassette they got when they bought the camcorder, were forced to use Panasonic shortly thereafter. That lead to a number of problems and of course, the conclusion that Panasonic made bad tape which wasn't really the issue.

Since that time the chemical problems have largely been resolved but we still always recommend that when switching brands you run a head cleaner to minimize this problem. Keep in mind that most of the tapes on the market are made by Panasonic, but we're not always SURE who's OEMing what for whom...

There is also the issue of varying headwear which is leftover from the analog world. Usually this manifested itself in TV stations who had hundreds of hours on a Betacam cart head and tried a different brand of tape, not necessarily with great results. Chances are your DV or DVCAM heads are nowhere near that used, but digital and ME are more sensitive to those kinds of issues, particularly in regard to digital dropout, artifacting pixelization. It pays to take extra care.

Hope that helps...we've been saying it for some time and at least the lubricant advice seems to be the gospel accoriding to DVinfo.net....

Craig

Joe, don't you use pretty much whatever brand of tape is available at the time with your XL1? It seems I recall you mix and match tapes routinely and have never had problems.

I am also interested in knowing how Maxell tapes fit into this scenario. Also, does anyone know if one camera/deck is more sensitive to this?

Brad, as far as we know, Maxell is Panasonic tape. Only available as consumer product though and overall, the Panasonic Pro is better quality and we seem to experience fewer problems.

Craig

Thanks, I'll remember that.

Wow, you're zippy!

Come visit us if you're ever in the 'hood.

cb

I've never had any problems ever that could be attributed to the tape when using MiniDV. I've only cleaned my video heads once in the camera, and that was about 2 months ago. Prior to that I had owned the camera for about 3 years (XL1) or so. Never a problem. I have Sony, Maxell and Panasonic tapes. I try to stay away from the Sony's as I hear they are more abrasive... they are actually designed that way to wear out heads quicker so you have to buy a new Sony product... planned obsolescence.

Does anyone really know the answer to whether one tape is better than the other?

I know mixing brands and the lubricants can cause problems but is one tape better than the next?

Digital means Zeros and Ones. And thats all you are recording. So you dont lose video quality or increase video quality from one brand to the next. So lets all understand that the video quality is not better from one tape to the other. But the cassette tape itself can be better because they have smoother pins and rollers so that they dont have extra friction to make the machine work less harder. I've worked with my CD and DVD recorder alot. I've tried different brands. And the information that gets record is all the same from the cheapest brand to the most expensive brand. But what distinguishes between CD & DVD brands is the speed at which they record. The more expensive brands you can record at a higher speed, where as the cheap brands you cant. And I've made as many coasters with the expensive brands and I did the cheap brands. But the coasters weren't created due to the brand as it was more attributed to the burning software.

Hope this helps.

Well, esentially digital is digital is true, yes. While there may be some tape affect on digtial-to-analog conversion I think it's minimal.

What we experience is this: you aren't likely to see the difference in first-generation picture quality but over time, there are factors due to wear and conditions.

The error-correction and dropout compensation in most recent vintage camcorders is pretty good, but unlike an analog dropout, a digital dropout is a pretty nasty looking animal. Once it's there, it is really disruptive.

Panasonic is the only company that makes a professional line of DV tape products, other than Sony DVCAM which is considerably more expensive. Overall, professional products have higher quality tape either through formulation or selection, better shells and better quality control. In addition, the MQ has a 4x greater particle density. That also means that it has a hotter signal (about 1db) and greater coercivity and retentivity -- in layman's terms, it attracts a signal better, holds on to it better, and replays in better. Plus with a better shell and packaging it's more durable, so long term it will be more resistant to dust, humidity and normal wear & tear.

I don't think you can gather too much from a comparison to optical media because the physics are entirely different and there is no variance in speed.

cb

Craig, Brad, Joe, ja135321, thanks for joining the thread. I, of course, have problems with the tapes I recorded for the distance learning series I described above. The Sony DV Excellence tapes I shot for other projects shot during the same time (often sandwiched in between the distance learning shoots) have no problems. It's the Panasonic tapes and several of the Sony tapes shot during the same lecture that have problems. They seem to jitter as if they aren't tracking properly. Some show occasional digital blocks. Sometimes you can get a smooth picture but there's no sound.

Do any of you know of any great transfer house that might be able to cope with issues like these? Any lab that specializes in mini DV? I've been told by a Sony repair specialist that there are technicians who have altered the allignment on playback so that the tapes track properly. Anybody know such a company or person?

In the research I've done to determine the cause of my dropouts on Panasonic Master tape, I've been told the following:
DV tape is manufactured by vapor deposition of the magnetic media on the substrate(the mylar carrier tape). The VPD process deposits a very thin layer of material, thinner than past technologies. The primary quality concern is the bonding between the tape substrate and the actual media. If the bonding is inadequate, the media will flake off of the substrate and eventially clog rollers, drum, etc. Every pass thru the tape transport bends the tape and stresses that bond interface. That's why DV tape has a limited lifetime of only a few passes thru the cassette.

On a personal note, I have avoided Sony tape because of the rumor of its abrasive nature. I have been using Panny master tape, but, the recent experience I had with dropout on Panny tape has me shaken. I'm off to try Fuji, reports I've had from a major tape house is that they use Fuji exclusively and never had any probs. Well, we'll see.

Well Bill, problem is, all tape is either Sony or Panasonic anyway. Fuji is the one that has apparently been both over time. Sony tape in Panasonic shell, Panasonic tape in Sony shell -- you never can get a final answer.

Panasonic MQ should be your best bet -- sorry you've been having trouble. I don't know how much more abrasive the Sony can be. I'm starting to hear lots of rumblings about that now and I'm going to have to investigate further because my understanding was that ME was a very nonabrasive formulation to start with.

Anyway, if you order anything from us I'll be sorely tempted to deliver it personally...can you book me a room at Bishop's Lodge?

Eric, I don't know of any offhand. I would try the usual suspects and ask them individually what they're experience is. Problem is, you'll need to speak with someone closer to the engineering section or at least a tape op. I'm not sure if the salespeople in the larger houses will know.

Thanx Craig....

Guess that Fuji I ordered is just more Panny...oh well.
As for your room at Bishop's Lodge....bring your camera....:-)
I'll buy you breakfast at Tesuque Market.

Vic Owen's recommendation that I try using a playback deck with "Dynamic Motion Control" was right. I went to a place from which I usually rent equipment and brought a sample of troubled tapes to play on their Sony DRS 2000. They played perfectly. I was relieved and happy beyond words. Six weeks of worry came to a sudden and welcome end. Without Vic's recommendation I would never have arrived at a solution.

I think this is very important information in that people who have problems with the alignment of original camera masters may have a way to play them back without problems.

What I've learned about "dynamic motion control" is that it was originally incorporated into the DSR 2000 as a way of improving slow motion playback. The machine therefore has a lot of tolerance in terms of tracking. And it works really well with problem tapes like mine.

I recommend that anyone who has problems (with mixed tape stocks and the tracking and alignment issues associated with debris in tape path) try this solution.

I, of course, am very grateful to Vic for recommendation. I'am also very happy to have found the DVinfo network as a forum to discuss important DV issues. Without Vic, without this forum, I'd still be struggling with a very serious problem that affect everyone involved with this distance learning series.

If you ever come to the Boston area, please contact me. I owe you a fine dinner. Many thanks, Vic.

Vic Owen's recommendation that I try using a playback deck with "Dynamic Motion Control" was right. I went to a place from which I usually rent equipment and brought a sample of troubled tapes to play on their Sony DRS 2000. They played perfectly. I was relieved and happy beyond words. Six weeks of worry came to a sudden and welcome end. Without Vic's recommendation I would never have arrived at a solution.

I think this is very important information in that people who have problems with the alignment of original camera masters may have a way to play them back without problems.

What I've learned about "dynamic motion control" is that it was originally incorporated into the DSR 2000 as a way of improving slow motion playback. The machine therefore has a lot of tolerance in terms of tracking. And it works really well with problem tapes like mine.

I recommend that anyone who has problems (with mixed tape stocks and the tracking and alignment issues associated with debris in tape path) try this solution.

I, of course, am very grateful to Vic for his recommendation. I'am also very happy to have found the DVinfo network as a forum to discuss important DV issues. Without Vic, without this forum, I'd still be struggling with a very serious problem that affect everyone involved with this distance learning series.

If you ever come to the Boston area, please contact me. I owe you a fine dinner. Many thanks, Vic.

I sent this email to Vic tonight:

Vic,

Thanks for your help with the Panasonic/Sony incompatibility problem I've been trying to solve. I tested some problem tapes on a DSR 2000 at an equipment rental house I often use and they played well.
The owner of the editing house now editing the project did the same and was also relieved. But today I received an email that we still have problems. I'll quote him so you can read directly what he's saying
about the DSR 2000.

"It is not a panacea. There are still some tapes that do not play either in the conventional play mode, or by
using the "dynamic tracking" feature available on that deck....Very few of
these tapes exhibit a servo lock condition, which you know is necessary for
stable video....I guess the cursory look I gave the tape at Talamas was just
that, a cursory look! I was so pleased I was hearing something I didn't see
and hear the errors I'm hearing now."

I know you don't have to help in any way, but I have truly appreciated your advice. Do you have any ideas about next steps to take in solving this problem?

Thanks.
Eric Neudel

Does anyone else have any advice or information? Are there engineers who specialize in issues like this?

Eric --

Hopefully, you've read my email to you suggesting other alternatives. There also might be some mavens here that can help.

I will look you up in Boston, though. I'll be there next week to help my son pack up after his first year at The Boston Conservatory. One down, three to go. If not this trip, then the next.

Anyone care to chime in on Eric's problem?

Vic,

I did get your email. When you're in Boston, please do look me up. I'll send you an email with contact info. Thanks again.

Vic, could you share that e-mail with the rest of us or is it confidential? Just for everyone's mutual benefit.

Chris --

I was just responding to an email I got from Eric, pointing him toward some other forums, the DV-L list, adamwilt.com, etc., that could possibly help. I would normally respond here, but in this case, it was a reply to Eric's mail query. I sure as heck wouldn't want to deprive anyone here of my (questionable) intellect and warped sense of humor!

In Eric's case, I'm fresh out of ideas -- hope someone else can bring their guns to bear on his problem.

Cheers--

Oh yeah, no sweat, I have Adam Wilt's site and DV-L listed on my Top Ten DV Websites page in the Resources section of dvinfo.net. If you have any other suggestions for good places to go, just send 'em my way.

I'm not hung up about pointing people to other sites (although some of those other sites don't point back to me because they *are* hung up). Folks are always free to go wherever they want!

Yes, some tapes are not very good because the lubricant seems to dirty the heads real fast. For the low-end I thing Fuji's are just fine. For the high-end, both (high-end) Sonys and Panasonics are great. With Fuji, you always know what you are getting. With JVC, Maxell, Canon etc, you are not always getting the same quality of tape. Although there are only a few companies that make this tape, the actual production can be anywhere from Japan, China, etc. etc.

(I have this site listed at DVFreak.com---going up May 15. I'll even put a * beside the link. How's that?)

All right, we rate an "*" -- awesome! Thanks, Frank. As I understand it, I believe Craig Berlin at Pro-Tape told me (and he knows his stuff), that there are really only two manufacturers of DV tape: Sony and Panasonic. All the other brands are just repackaged variations of these two. For instance all Canon tape is just repackaged Panasonic. I'm not sure how the others break down, Fuji etc. Quality now, that's another thing.

Hello,

I tell you one!
I shot 2 one Hr. tapes of a jazz Fest for a student at the local College, packed up and gave him the 2 tape for editing class the next day. They were Sony Excellence tapes.

The previous day to the jazz fest I went to an ASIAN Fest and shot 1 Hr. worth of tape.

I get a call from he at school, so I drop bye and bring my asian tape. I view his editing and he gives me back my original tapes and he and I view the first 5 minutes of my tape (which I had already downloaded on my G-4 the night before) . The VCR they use at school is a $2000. Panasonic or JVC.

I go home and put his tapes in my vcr and I notice they tend to be jerky and so is the first 5 minutes of my asian fest tape I had shown him.

Since many students buy the cheapest tapes they can, the heads on the school vcr, left some dry lube on my tapes which means the tapes are now NG.

Moral to the story : When in doubt, clean the vcr's heads, you have no idea what combination of tapes have been in it!

Actually Fuji makes their own tape and has made tape for Panasonic. Sorry fellows.

Hi Craig-
Perhaps you can help me. I have been searching for VHS tapes for a while now, all with little luck. I am looking for TDK pro grade in 30 and 60 minute lengths.

In the few places I have found them, they are like $4.00 each, while the comparable Sony or Fugi is only $.70 ea. I really prefer the TDK brand, but not that much. Do you have access to these, or at least a believable explanation for the price hike?
Thanks,
Keith

Fuji Pro is very good tape, Fuji Master is even better (for masters).