Well I've converted three clips from the HD1OU to Pixlet at best quality, 720p and I see absolutely NO LOSS IN QUALITY! in the conversion. This is an amazing codec, and without being premature, I think that this may well have solved our editing pipeline on the Mac. I will be able to try editing it in FCP later on when I get it installed so I'll let you know, but as it's now a standard Quicktime codec so I see no reason why it won't be fully editable.
Just to let you know, I used mpegtx to demux, and mpeg2decx (which uses Quicktime conversion, both shareware utilities) to convert to Pixlet directly. You will probably be able to do the conversion using Quicktime Pro instead of Mpeg2decx if you want. I'm doing this on a dual 2ghz G5 so the demuxing is really quick, the conversion to pixlet is not lightning fast on the G5, but it is acceptably fast for me, so I don't know how it will be on a slower machine. The converted Pixlet files are 3.77 times the size of the original files from the camera, so that a 57mb .m2t file becomes a 219mb .mov Pixlet file. In case I didn't mention, the Pixlet HD files play back full screen 720p at full framerate without a hitch on the G5, and it looks gorgeous!!.

Hope this helps

Hey Paul,

I did some testing like you and found that I could do exactly what you described with a very decent quality using Sorenson 3 before, but I must be missing something.

<<You will probably be able to do the conversion using Quicktime Pro instead of Mpeg2decx if you want>>

I have the latest QT Pro 6.4 with the Mpeg addition and I still can't open m2v files produced by mpegtx. I recall reading a post from Steve Mullen who explains this very fact and that's why he wrote HDViaduct or something like that. But mpeg2decx does the job fine and as you said it uses QT so you can convert to any QT Codec you desire.

Now help me with a couple of things.

1/ In your opinion, is the HD Pixlet Codec good enough quality to use it as online HD editing? I mean the QT Pixlet is made of MPEG anyway right? Why not...

2/Once edited, how to you reconvert to MPEG transport stream usable by DVHS or VirtualDVHS to output back to a deck or your camera?

These are exiting times, editing HD on $2K solutions but I'll tell you that I already can't wait for a direct capture of HDV in FCP!!!! Converting files 3 times before putting in timeline is already getting old and expensive HD wise.

The real question is not the ability to CONVERT MPEG-2 to another codec. That's not a big deal. We've been able to convert to MPEG-4 at 1280x720 with no visible -- on your computer-screen loss -- in quality for 6 months.

The questions are four-fold:

1) Do the files you EDIT WITH take-up more or less space? Pixlet files expand by 4X. ProxyProcess files shrink by 10X. That means laptop and iMac editing is posssible with HDVcinema.

2) Can you play the files in FCP at full-speed on a G3 iBook, or a G4iMac? A dual 2GHz G5 can play uncompressed HD and is not a typical Mac. HDVcinema allows you to edit on any Mac that supports FCP v3.

3) Will FCP play FX in real-time with 1280x720 pixlet? Unless you can edit in real-time, you have taken a step backward. This is the strength of Aspect HD. It's not just another codec. It delivers real-time FX. HDVcinema preserves you ability to edit in real-time.

4) After you edit, what then? You've might spend $5000 to get back to MPEG-2 TS. And even then you can't record to your camcorder. Moreover, your source material will have gone through TWO decompression-recompression cycles. That's not something I would want to do. With HDVcinema you not only can encode to HD MPEG-2 and record back to you camcorder -- your source undergoes ONLY ONE cycle. It moves smoothly from 6-frame GOP CBR to 15-frame GOP VBR.

Frankly, I think an enoumous amount of time has been spent trying to think up ways to convert MPEG-2 to something. The real question is what's the editing process like. And what do you do then? How do you get back to videotape? How do you distribute?

Steve,

I agree with everything you wrote, but what is HDVCinema?

<<<-- Originally posted by Frederic Haubrich : I have the latest QT Pro 6.4 with the Mpeg addition and I still can't open m2v files produced by mpegtx. I recall reading a post from Steve Mullen who explains this very fact and that's why he wrote HDViaduct or something like that. -->>>

You are correct. And it looks like Apple didn't fix the incompatibilty problem with JVC MPEG-2 files in QT 6.4.

Steve,

I'm a bit confused here.


<<--ProxyProcess files shrink by 10X. That means laptop and iMac editing is posssible with HDVcinema.
-->>

First, using proxy (offline) HD editing. I assume you suggest to use DV proxies so you can edit using monitor output through firewire. If this is the case, what format are the source files you go back to for online?

Secondly, if Pixlet is an HD online solution wouldn't the advantage be that you could essentially delete intermediary files such as m2t and m2v used to create the Pixlet files and therefore save HD space. You would still have to edit without the luxury of viewing footage on an external monitor.

Thirdly, on a MAC, what are the options to convert final edited files back to MPEG-Transport Stream for output to camera or deck?

Thanks Steve.

Check this out everyone. I think this guy demonstrated that with professional lighting you can get incredible results (and some heavy color correction):

http://pro.jvc.com/pro/attributes/HDTV/enduser/4lanes.htm

Go to his site to view the footage! awesome.

<<<-- Originally posted by Frederic Haubrich : -->>

First, using proxy (offline) HD editing. I assume you suggest to use DV proxies so you can edit using monitor output through firewire. If this is the case, what format are the source files you go back to for online?

It's not DV and the source files are your original HD MPEG-2 files.


Secondly, if Pixlet is an HD online solution wouldn't the advantage be that you could essentially delete intermediary files such as m2t and m2v used to create the Pixlet files and therefore save HD space.

You can always delete the TS files. Why delete compact .m2v files and keep 4X larger pixlet files? There's no space saved. You've lost space.


Thirdly, on a MAC, what are the options to convert final edited files back to MPEG-Transport Stream for output to camera or deck?

To get to a deck, $5000 for the Heuris product. To get to the camcorder, HDVcinema plus $250 additional software.

Steve,

I hope you don't mind but I want to make sure I understand this properly.

I just realized that HDVCinema is your editing solution. You've changed the name from 4HDV and that confused me.

You wrote>> "It's not DV and the source files are your original HD MPEG-2 files."

If the proxy files you work with aren't DV then I'm assuming that you can't view your footage on an NTSC monitor. Having said that, I'm sure that if you wanted to make them DV anamorphic so you could view through the firewire on an NTSC monitor that would be fine. Any HD offline format (Motion JPG HD, Sorenson HD, DV) would still be compatible with your solution.

You wrote>> "You can always delete the TS files. Why delete compact .m2v files and keep 4X larger pixlet files? There's no space saved. You've lost space."

What can you do with the .m2v files if FCP can't edit them? Keep the online Pixlet files and delete everything else.

Are you serious, the cheapest solution to get QT or m2V files convert to Mpeg Transport Stream is $350? Now I tried DVHSCap and it will play .m2t files back to the camera but the question is how can I make a .m2t file....

<<<-- Originally posted by Frederic Haubrich : I'm assuming that you can't view your footage on an NTSC monitor.

It depends on your Mac. As Paul mentioned, you can see freeze frames for color correction when using FCP. But, I don't know if FCP letterboxes the widecreen video. Good question for Paul.


What can you do with the .m2v files if FCP can't edit them?

After editing you re-link the Proxy to the MPEG-2. Now you have an MPEG-2 timeline ready for export.

Are you serious, the cheapest solution to get QT or m2V files convert to Mpeg Transport Stream is $350? -->>>

My goal is to do it ALL for under $500 which seems right for a $3500 camcorder.

Final questions on the topic:

You wrote>> "After editing you re-link the Proxy to the MPEG-2. Now you have an MPEG-2 timeline ready for export."

I'm assuming that you take the .m2v files procuded from the transport stream through a process prior to using them as source for online editing with FCP. The reason being that FCP (QT) does not recognize these files to date. And now that I write this, I realize that this is the plugin you wrote that works with ffmpegX that transforms the m2t into a QuickTime friendly m2v.

I need to read your workflow again that talks about Viaduct and Bridge and so on..., could you send me the link Steve?

Here's the link you wanted:

http://www.mindspring.com/~d-v-c/

So your choices are $500 or $5000.

Oh, and only the inexpensive solution will record to your HDV camcorder.

Seems like a no brainer to me.

I'm out of my depth here but I've always wondered, you know how Final Cut has that Off line edit option so that you only have to keep low res versions of your footage on the computer while you edit and then only download the full rez versions when you're ready for them--and then only download the footage you want--could this process be applied to editing a low res version of the HD-1 footage then assembling a full-rez decompressed version?

Almost Betsy, but not exactly.

See, with HDV, the computer through firewire cannot recognize timecode, therefore you can't log your footage and capture what you've logged in a low rez mode.

What you can do however is download your footage through firewire with shareware in peices, based on what you have selected visually but not as precise as using the log and capture feature from FCP, you will then have MPEG Transport Stream files called .m2t. These files are smaller than DV by the way.

You will then have to convert these files to MPEG-2 called .m2v. Now this is the tricky part. For this process, you can use shareware or you can buy HDVCinema ($200). The advantage of HDVCinema is that it will make these .m2v (9GIG per hour!) files usable by QuickTime, therefore FCP, but you would need a heavy duty machine to be able to play these full rez HD files in FCP.

So, to come back to your original question, this is the point at which you can apply the offline process. But only with HDVCinema because other freeware transforms the .m2t files into .m2v files that AREN't usable by FCP, but I'll get back to this in a bit.

SO HDVCinema will make smaller files based on those full rez HD .m2vs that you can use in FCP (Proxies) and edit with realtime FX and full motion (30 fps). These files by the way are only 850 MB per hour. So if you compare Hard Drive requirement with DV it's smaller! .m2v + Proxies = Approx 10 GIG per hour (DV is 13 GIG per hour).

When you're finished editing, you go online using the source .m2v files. And FCP will work on its own to rebuild the project and render your material. At this point, you can choose to 'truncate' your .m2v files to keep only what you've used.

If you didn't go the HDVCinema route, you would have to convert .m2v files to another format usable by QuickTime which most likely will be much larger in size than the .m2v. So if space is an obstacle for you, HDVCinema really is the best option.

I'm going to stop here 'cause I just gave myself a headache!

I hope this help.

Steve, if Frederic described your solution correctly, it sounds atrractive.

Except that I'm working on Wintel platform.

Can you program a similar solution for Windows/Premiere Pro?

Frederic really has it down cold.

The PC world is simpler. Buy Apect HD -- which I recommend as it is a TOTAL SOLUTION. With RT FX.

Or, use Vegas 4+DVD to directly edit the TS. No RT FX.

Both require at 2.4GHz or faster P4.

Then there is the issue of going back to your HDV camcorder.

Both Vegas -- and HDVcinema -- require one to use Womble to convert HD MPEG-2 PS to TS.

Aspect HD includes this function.

What power PC do you have? What NLE do you use now?

I run Premiere Pro on P4 2.4Ghz, 400FSB, 1Gb memory, 7200rpm IDE drives in RAID 10 at 120Mb/s on 33Mhz PCI bus.

PPro is resource-hungry, so what I have seems to be the minimum configuration needed for PPro to even realistically process DV, let alone HD.

I'm planning on upgrading to dual-processor 3 or 3.2Ghz each, 800FSB with matching DualDDR 2Gb or 3Gb memory, on 66Mhz PCI bus with the same RAID as above.

Aspect HD: I consider myself to be a very reasonable person, so I keep all options open. The company I own also has funds to buy whatever solution I like. However Aspect just doesn't make good business sense to me at the moment for the folowing reasons:

1. Not available for Premiere Pro. I'm not going to step back to Premiere 6.5 just to run a plug-in.

2. Requires very high-end PC (like the upgrade I'm going to undertake, see above). But then maybe I'll be able to process HD files even without Aspect?

3. No-trial policy of Aspect HD. If there was trial available, I'd at least check it with Premiere 6.5 to project what Aspect would be like with PPro. However trial is not available. I can imagine that if this is a deal breaker for me, then it probably throws off many other people who are in more restricted curcumstances than my company.


My intention at this point is as follows:

- Have enough processing power to have real-time proxy editing with Premiere Pro (I do not realistically think that I could run real-time HD with filters on 2-3 streams at the time even after my upgrade as above.)

- Have an application that would streamline the process of capturing/cataloging/making proxies of the footage. Ideally it's Premiere Pro, which already has great DV capturing modules; all they have to do is upgrade them to deal with HD instead of DV, and ideally create offline proxies if required by user.
Not having this functionality, I'll just have to create proxies myself.

My plan is to have m2t converted to HUFFYUV AVIs at full res for originals; then these originals down-rezd to 640x360 MS DV 1 miniMe proxies for super-fast editing with many streams/filters applied with no problem.

When done, the project will be onlined by substituting proxies with original AVIs.

I don't really care to have it output directly to m2t from the timeline.

Instead, I'd render the project to uncompressed AVI at the end, and thus have a high quality master to work with.

From there, I can:

- Downconvert it for 720x480 high-quality DVD using TMPGENC;
- Encode it as a WMP9 (which is my preference. Hey, I can even do it directly from the timeline, with all 5.1 sound channels intact! But where are the WMP9 set-top players???)
- Encode it back into m2t with multiplexed AC3 5.1 sound and further transfer to a D-VHS tape for viewing/distribution in HD.

The 3 things as above I'm already doing without a problem.

Problem is:

- Inability to batch-capture HD files from HD10 cam with thumbnails/timecode as it was done in DV previously. There seems to be no solution to this one at the time :(

- Huge lag between the PC power available and taxing requirements of real-time HD processing. Solution: upgrade to high-end PC (I'm going to) AND employ either offline editing with proxies, OR online editing with software accelerator like Aspect. See my notes on Aspect above.

As I said, being a reasonable person, I keep all my options open. Aspect or other application, if they actually solved the problem, then they'd be contenders for my investment of time and money.

<<<-- Originally posted by Alex Raskin : I run Premiere Pro on P4 2.4Ghz, 400FSB, 1Gb memory, 7200rpm IDE drives in RAID 10 at 120Mb/s on 33Mhz PCI bus.

PPro is resource-hungry, so what I have seems to be the minimum configuration needed for PPro to even realistically process DV, let alone HD.
-->>>

Remember Aspect HD completely replaces Premiere's entire playback engine, so even your current system will work fine. Aspect HD can really use the fastest PC, yet at 2.4GHz and that excellent RAID of yours, you would be comfortably editing dual streams of HD with the CineForm product. You system exceeds our requirement specs. as your memory system is 50% faster than the 266Mhz minimum (CPU speed is much less important than memory speed.)

We understand that many are waiting for the Premiere Pro version, and we are working with Adobe to release this ASAP (it is a free upgrade for purchasers of Aspect HD for 6.5.) In meantime a very productive tool is available, so if you have work to do you should consider this product.

There are good reasons to not widely release a free trail version, although we understand your point of view and may consider a download version in the future. We have a full 30-day money back guarantee that meets the the evaluation need of many. If you can plead you case for a free trail you will need to call CineForm and negotiate directly.

David, thank you for the time you dedicated discussing different issues during my phone call.

Hey people, whoever are interested in Aspect HD: David Newman is a great person and is one of the most knowledgeable people in the industry.

If you are seriously interested in HD editing using Premiere 6.5, I recommend that you listen to what David is saying.

As for me, the trial version is still unavailable, so I will just upgrade my PC instead - which will have positive overall effect on everything I do on the computer anyway - and then wait for trial version of Aspect HD for Premiere Pro, if and when it becomes available.

My opinion remained unchanged from my previous post.

Meanwhile, some other solutions may surface that help real-time HD editing. Of course, no-one knows whether they will be more or less expensive than Aspect HD, and how will they compare feature-wise.

However if you have a deadline and need real-time HD editing NOW, then you may see things differently and actually consider Aspect.

<<<-- Originally posted by Alex Raskin : As for me, the trial version is still unavailable -->>>

Just put in on your credit card! If you don't like it, cancel your order within 30-days. What more do you want -- a free toaster with your order?

Would you expect B&H to loan you a camcorder for 30-days without charging your card?

Steve, am I supposed to be ashamed because I did not buy Aspect HD?

What's the point of your sarcastic advice to me? Please explain.

B&H: I buy from them when I'm sure of what I need.

In case of Aspect HD I was not sure, and thus trial would help convince me. To pay $1200 to try and convince myself seems like not a good idea to me.

Of course I may end up paying $1600 for the same product when it's available for Premiere Pro. Or I may not. In any case, this will be my decision based on the trial of the software, if such will be available at the time (preferably), and/or other factors.