Solutions, links, questions and answers about Apple and HDV editing solutions go here!

(Note: I'm sure many of you know most of this, but it's probably good to have it all in one convenient place.)

Before you do anything, surf over here, if you've never been (I FINALLY did!). Not much to see, but it shows that Apple (cough, cough!) can find out about licensing HDV for, well, helping us Apple Heads out:

http://www.hdv-info.org/

1. Well, Heuris' package looks nice, but at nearly $5,000 (!!!), it's a rip-off. I'd rather buy the AJA Kona HD/Io (SD) cards combo pack for the same price!

http://www.heuris.com/MPEGProducts/IndieHDToolkit/index.htm

It does have some steps, not unlike some of the stuff Mullen and Mogg mention (of course, I'm not talking only about HDVCinema or Paul's solution). Here's a link to the list, as I don't want to have (c) issues with Heuris:

http://www.heuris.com/MPEGProducts/IndieHDToolkit/features.htm

2. And of course, our own Steve Mullen offers his solution here: http://www.mindspring.com/~d-v-c/

Now, I'm hoping someone can take over with links to other solutions, because everything else is PC-based (Vitrual PC, anyone, or will I crash my G5?). Paul, et al, can you put up links in a post and maybe some instructions on how you figured out how to edit HDV on the Apple?

Also, to create clickable links, make one of these:



Note: DON'T put a space between the lfirst "]" and the next "[" like I did. Then, put the website url in between there. It will make a link for people to click on.

heath

Good idea, Heath, and we'll try to get the Aspect HD guys back in here.

I'd like to keep this thread open to the solutions. If Paul, Eric, etc. can post up their solutions with instructions, that would keep it in one place.

heath

Here's some interesting information from the moderator over at the ffmpegx forum, who I've ben trying to cajole into supporting HD encoding in ffmpegx, which he says he will do, but I have no timeframe on this, to quote from his post......



"I should mention .. main concept will be releasing thier stand alone encoder for both macs and linux - prob. by the end of the year . it encodes to HD and also transport streams (mpeg audio only - for now) .."
_________________

"it (MC for MAC and linux) was anounced at several trade shows and info on it is on several german web sites....

it is already on the mac if you bought adobe premiere for mac and main concept is releasing several of their products already on the linux platform ..."

I had a conversation with Main Concept, and it is not expected to be released for the MAC anytime soon. Look to 2nd Q of 2004.

DBK

...another one bites the dust!

Thanks Darren

Paul,

Can you please post up your solution with all the steps. Keeping it unified is the way to go, all the edit solutions for Apple.

That way, it's in one place we can all check.

Thanks,

heath

My "alternative" is described very thoroughly at lumiereHDV: http://lumieremedia.com/hdv/viewtopic.php?t=8 . It is not a solution, rather an alternative, much like HDV cinema exept for the fact that my alternative does not provide a way to get back to the camera (only HDV cinema does but with the use of either a PC or virtual PC).

You need Virtual PC and Womble, I believe, to go back to the camera (and I think DVHS).

heath

Editing JVC1OU footage on the Mac

1) Import footage into the Mac from the camera via firewire using the Apple utility called "DVHScap" that is available free from the Apple website as part of the "Firewire SDK18" package.

2)"Demux" the .m2t files captured from the camera (that are in MPEG2 Transport Stream format) to MPEG2 Program Stream, using the shareware utility called "mpgtxwrap". This results in an .m2v file (video) and an .mp3 file (audio)

You now have a choice to make. Do you want to end up with a final master file in the original MPEG2 TS (Transport Stream) format? (for which there is currently no complete Mac-only solution). Or do you want to end up with a master file in some other Quicktime HD format like Pixlet?

3) If you don’t want to end up back with an MPEG2 TS file, you can simply use the shareware utility called MM2C (which itself uses Quicktime conversion) to convert your .m2v files directly to another Quicktime codec that you CAN edit with FCP, and use iTunes to convert the .mp3 file to an .aiff file . I currently am using the new Quicktime codec called “Pixlet” which plays very well on the new G5 dual 2ghz machines, and is fully editable in FCP, though it doesn’t allow real-time effects while editing. I don’t know how it performs on slower machines.
There are other codec choices that may be equal or better than Pixlet, but I haven’t tried them personally.

4) If you are concerned about the possible loss in quality inherent in editing a compressed video format in FCP, you can decompress all of your .m2v files to uncompressed video using MM2C by choosing “none” for the Quicktime convertion options. (this takes masses of hard drive space) You can then do a “Proxy” or “Offline” edit of that uncompressed material in FCP. All this means is that you simply make a copy of all of the uncompressed material you plan to edit, in any format you choose that is acceptable for editing in FCP (including DV or Pixlet or OflineRT). Then, once you have finished editing in that format, you effectively “swap out” all of the edited (DV or Pixlet or Offline RT) material in your timeline, for the uncompressed material sitting on your hard drive (which would normally be un-editable due to it’s sheer size). You then just tell FCP to render it all while you take a short vacation in Hawaii. Eh Voila! You have an uncompressed HD master sitting on your hard drive, which you can then convert to whatever other formats you choose.

5) If you DO want to end up with an MPEG2 TS file, and have a PC connected on a Network with your Mac, it is possible to get your edited final file back to the original MPEG2 TS format that it started out life as, (it is currently not possible to do this only on the Mac) but this requires you to buy extra software on the PC, specifically a low-end editor called “Womble” ($120 www.womble.com). This editor will actually edit the MPEG2 TS files just as they, in their native format, in a very simple way, though I’ve so far found this program to be unreliable for editing. If you’ve already got a fast PC setup, you may well just choose to go with a complete PC based editing solution such as Aspect HD or Vegas Video, which from all accounts sound very complete solutions.

Paul,

You rock. Now, about DVHSCap, do you recommend that or the virtual DVHS? Or am I off my rocker again?

heath

You should try the DC30+ lossless codec instead of "none" in the QT compression, much less disk space! ( http://www.alfanet.it/squared5/dc30xact.html )

Paul's alternative is prety much the same as mine (since this one has been a joint development of many people on the DVI forum over the last months), on the link I gave though, there are different compression schemes and their byterate (not bitrate) to give an idea on QT codecs possibilities.

virtual DVHS is more reliable, sometimes DVHScap bugs (loss of signal, camera not recognised). Also virtualDVHS allows batch output to camera of m2t files.

Thanks Eric, that lossless codec sounds very useful, I'll have to try it. Yes none of this is a big secret, it's just standard offline editing, that's why it always bugged me a bit that Steve Mullen made it out to be more complex, and a unique invention.
The one very valuable piece that Steve Mullen's package did provide was a re-worked version of a shareware MPEG2 encoder called Mpeg2enc, which Steve re-compiled to be able to encode HD on the Mac (though I haven't tried it and reports are mixed as to whether it works), though the guys over at ffmpegx forum who wrote this, tell me this is a fairly simple change that they plan to make themselves shortly.

Anyway, this enables you to get to MPEG2 PS (program stream) on the Mac, but not to MPEG2 TS (transport stream), and the only way I know to do this, is on a PC using Womble. There are of course a couple of solutions for all of this on the Mac, notably Heuris and one other, but they both cost in the $3,000 to $5000 range, which is fine if you have the cash.

The other point is, that if you've got to go to the PC anway, to do PS to TS conversion, you may as well do your encoding to HD MPEG2 PS on the PC, using the $60 Tmpgenc shareware encoder, which basically eliminated the need for Steve's package alltogether.

One other possible option for encoding on the PC, that I haven't tried, is that Womble says it accepts Motion Jpeg files as input, so it will theoretically also encode to HD resolution MPEG2_TS from that format, which you could output from FCP, it's worth investigating.

<<One other possible option for encoding on the PC, that I haven't tried, is that Womble says it accepts Motion Jpeg files as input, so it will theoretically also encode to HD resolution MPEG2_TS from that format, which you could output from FCP, it's worth investigating.


__________________
Paul>>

Man, Paul, I want to try that! But without the camera...Okay, I'll shut up about that now! It's being used for good things!

heath

If ever you are right about womble accepting mjpeg the loop is indeed complete. I will try that for sure.

It's a simple, yet slightly pricey, way to get it back to the HD10.

heath

Better than 5k "getting to DVHS only" solution. Thanks for the tip, I thought womble only accepted MPEG2 files...

This is what Mullen is saying we'll need to get back to the camera with HDV Cinema.

heath

Well... I guess I should have tried it anyway without listening just in case it worked :)

I posted this originally at camcorderinfo.com, then reposted here on a different thread, Heath suggested that I post it on this thread, sorry about all the redundancy.

Project X is an alternative for demuxing transport streams, it also will convert program streams to transport streams, the hurdle right now seems to be the limitation on MPEG2 encoders for the Mac, Compressor and Quicktime mpeg2 encoders both limit the video resolution to 720x480

Project X compiled on 10.2.7 but started generating compile errors with
10.2.8, some error about "claims 0 max advance but is fixed-pitch", this seems to be a known bug which is affecting many different Java apps.
Alfred Tsang who I work with got it to compile by:
Downloading the zip file to the Desktop
Double clicking on the file to unzip it using stuffit expander
You should have a folder called ProjectX_Source open that folder and
go into the src folder and edit the folliowng line in X.java (using TextEdit)
Object[] fonts = (Object[])GraphicsEnvironment.getLocalGraphicsEnvironment().getAvailableFontFamilyNames();

change it to:


//Object[] fonts = (Object[])GraphicsEnvironment.getLocalGraphicsEnvironment().getAvailableFontFamilyNames();
String[] fonts = new String[1];
fonts[0] = "SansSerif";

This will affect a portion of the program that allows for conversion of captioning, which I am not using anyway.

Open a Terminal window (located in Applications/Utilities)
type
cd Desktop
cd ProjectX_Source
cd src
javac [-O] *.java
jar cfvm X.jar MANIFEST.MF *.class

if all goes well you will have a file called X.jar in the src folder, double clicking on it will launch the application
There will be a bunch of tabs, click on the files tab and drag the m2t file created form DVHSCap into the window.
Click on the audio tab and Check "decode MPEG Layer to PCM" and "add RIFF(RIFX) header to PCM (.wav)"
click on "main" and the use the "Go!" button.
The application is fast, faster than realtime on a G5. (even faster if you don't convert the audio to wav)
it will produce a mpv file and a .wav file both which FCP understand.
I have needed to match the duration of the two files some times to fix synch issues

I hope this works for all who try it, let me know if anyone tries to convert mpv's back to a transport stream

Thanks go to Arick Chang who discovered Project_X on the web and showed me how to use it.

Oh, and you shouldn't have to download the SDK. javac and jar come with OSX (I have not tried any of this on OS9)

Paul, is it possible you could post the compiled program somewhere to save us all having to go through the compilation process, or forward it by email to us? Or maybe DVinfo.net could host it for people to access if this is allowed?

Thanks

DV Info would be happy to act as host. Email Chris Hurd for details or post questions here.

Question about Wommble. What OS does it require? I've got an older copy of Virtual PC with WIN95 on it.

Thanks,

JT

I left the file with Chris who said he would be uploading it in a day or so.

Jeremiah,
the Womble manual says it requires Windows 95,98 or NT with a 400mhz CPU or better for MPEG2. I've got it on windows XP and it seems to run ok, though I've got to say the editing methods it uses are just weird to me after FCP.

Chris,
could you please post when the ProjectX program is available for download, I'd really like to try it.

Thanks

Paul

I can't wait to try Project X! Thanks for offering to post it for us.

Hey everyone - I've got some HD10 footage that I would like to post. Is there anywhere I can, so people can download?

Thanks, Chris

<<<-- Originally posted by Christopher C. Murphy : Hey everyone - I've got some HD10 footage that I would like to post. Is there anywhere I can, so people can download?

Thanks, Chris -->>>

Email Chris Hurd at chris@dvinfo.net -- I'm positive he'll post it up!

heath

<<<-- Originally posted by Paul Mogg : Jeremiah,
the Womble manual says it requires Windows 95,98 or NT with a 400mhz CPU or better for MPEG2. I've got it on windows XP and it seems to run ok, though I've got to say the editing methods it uses are just weird to me after FCP.
>>>

Thanks for the information.

JT

FYI,

http://www.womble.com/

heath

I made this a permanent fixture, so HDV videographers and editors can find edit solutions fast. I'm going to make a PC one ASAP!

Happy posting! keep those ideas coming!

heath

Paul St. Denis wrote...

<< I left the file with Chris who said he would be uploading it in a day or so. >>

Yes, I'm on the road right now but should have this up later tonight. Will post the link once it's online. Thanks,

Okay, this is now available at:

www.dvinfo.net/jvc/media/ProjectX.tar.gz

Somebody tell me this actually works. I might have screwed something up in the file transfer.

I tried opening the Project X, but it's not working in the latest Panther. (including the latest Java update as of Nov. 14th)

Anyone else able to open in latest Panther?

Chris

If only Apple would offer a plug and play solution!

D'oh!

:-)

heath

Just a follow up on "Project X" - anyone figure it out yet?? Waste of time?

Chris

Christopher,
Just updated to Panther, Project X is working still. What happens when you double click on the jar file?

Hi, it just sits their on the Dock. Is it suppose to open a program?

Chris.
Can you try this?
Place the folder containing Project_X.jar on your desktop, open a terminal window and type

cd Desktop
cd "Project X"
java -jar Project_X.jar

copy whatever text this produces and post it here.

Ok, I'll give it a shot when I get on my Mac and post results here!

Chris

Virtual DVHS question:

I connected my HD10 (yeah, got it back after Jon Fordham used it and we shot a short film, too!) to my Mac and had complete control with Virtual DVHS, but I'm clueless as to where the files are going. I hit the record button at the upper right-hand corner and it said it was capturing, but to where? Can someone help?!

heath

If you drag the folder where you want the files to be saved onto VirtualDVHS that sets the save folder upon launch, it can also be changed in preferences "Transport Stream Path"
To create the files you need to press play on "External D-VHS VCR Transport Control" and record under "Recorder (Input Plug 0)"
Another way that firewire stopped working for me (from another post). Apparently if you have DVHSCap running (even if the window is closed) VirtualDVHS will not detect the camera.

Also I found another person offering Project X binaries
http://www.radonmaster.de/robernd/tools/
ProjectX_jar_0815.zip

These work for me (of course the other ones did also)

I created an Applescript droplet that allows for conversion from Quicktime 1280x720p to MPEG2 transport stream.
http://www.celt.sunysb.edu/paul/HDQT2TS.tar.gz

The instructions are include in the README, please let me know if you need any clarification.

Paul St. Denis

(Heath, I posted in the main HDV Editing Solutions section as well, thinking that less people read this individual thread, please feel free to move or delete either post.)

Lumiere HD seems pretty cool to me. (www.lumierehd.com)

heath

...out of curiosity.....now that Steve Jobs has announced a new resolution independant H 264 codec that will support HDV in the next OS release, Tiger- can we expect HDV editing to be easier since it will be part of the Quicktime architecture?

Can native HDV editing be finally on the horizon for FCP users? Even iMovie should be able to edit HDV when Tiger comes out if I figure correctly.

Who knows...and Apple ain't talkin', that's for sure!

heath

Just want to know what the deal will be with Tiger OS 10.4? I have FCP4 HD running on a G5 and have recently acquired a JVC JY HD10 hi def camera if I can get OS 10.4 installed on my machine (which is now on OS 10.3.5) will I need another plug in or something for FCP in order to download from the camera and edit in Hi def? Will I still need Lumiere HD even with OS 10.4? What will be the procedure? Anyone out there that can explain it to me?

J D

It'll run better on the G5 than Panther, which is great for Final Cut HD.

heath

OK<

So what you are saying is that 10.4 is a more robust platform for HDV but I will still need Lumiere? Or that 10.4 will eliminate the need for any third party software? Also I have seen a lot of different posts that talk about Lumiere or 4HDV, etc. etc. Which is the best solution/set up?

Thanks,

J D

Until Final Cut Pro comes out with support for HDV, you're gonna need Lumiere HD or other 3rd party software. 10.4 is a faster and more powerful OS, but doesn't have HDV support.

heath