Like many others, I use MD for wild audio capture, but have always been bothered that I can't move the digital audio to the computer and can only do an analogue transfer using my sound card. I just ordered a Creative Nomad Jukebox 3, which is an MP3 player with a 40 GB hard drive that can run for up to 22 hours on a pair of internal Li ion batteries. I bought it strictly to use as an MP3 player, but looking over the specs, it can do audio stereo capture, either line or mike. It also comes with a driver that allows Windows to see it as an external drive using either USB (1.0 only) or 1394. I haven't received it yet, and the specs don't indicate what format it uses to capture, but it looks like this might be a good alternative to MD, both because it's a direct-to-digital device, and because of its huge storage capacity and extended battery life. I'll report back when I've had a chance to play with it a bit.

Yes it's got some good points but it lacks the finesse of a pro unit.
I bought a marantz PMD670 flash recorder. This has every balanced feature that you'd want in a pro mixer. It's well worth the moneyand the drag and drop feature is excellent.

Jay Rose started a thread about using an iPod as a location recorder over on the DV Mag forum about a month ago ("Yet another cheap location recorder..."). A few alternatives were mentioned. If my search missed a similar thread here, I apologise for not mentioning it.

Meanwhile Core Sound (www.core-sound.com) are developing a range of gear based on a PDA.

To me, the advantage of the PDA approach is that you have a wide choice of ADCs, including the Apogee Mini-Me.

Best,
Helen

The mini-me is one cool dude, but ouch! The price. The Denecke AD-20 is supposed to be a pretty good front end for that Jukebox. Let us know how it works out for you.

I've had the Nomad Junkbox 3 for a while. I don't use it much.
The good thing about it is it's a hard drive (1394, capacity). The bad thing about it is it's a hard drive. The "mic in" feature is a joke. There's no hardware preamp. It's done through digital amplification. Here's a good analogy. I've got a camcorder that has 10X optical zoom and 700X digital zoom. Have you ever seen what "digital zoom" does to image quality? Bottom line on the Nomaddening's mic-in feature is that, by the time you turn the gain up to a level where you are getting a good signal, you're also getting a good degree of hiss.
Like I said, being a hard drive, you should also prepare for lock-ups requiring reboot. It'll be playing along and just freeze on a certain note. Sort of like the Emergency Broadcast test signal. All the keys are unresponsive. Being a hard drive, you also get the following. Make an important recording. Go to retrieve it. Guess what. "File corruption error, sorry file not accessible." SOL. Sorry.
The included computer software is non-intuitive and buggy. For example, say you make a recording in the field. You want to 1394 Firewire it to computer using the software. Guess what.
You get the message: "Nomad not connected". Nothing you do will get it to recognize the connection. So you figure, fine, I'll do an analog recording. Guess what. The analog recording has a lot of crackles and pops in it.
One of the reasons I got the Junkbox is because it could do lossless WAV recordings. Guess what. WAV recordings come
accompanied with intermittent high-pitched squeeling noise. Every 15 seconds, lasting for a couple seconds. The higher kHz quality recording you make, the louder it gets. I think it may be picking up hard drive read/write movement, but not sure of this. Only the lossy modes are quiet.
Another thing. Line-in recording gives a choice of -3dB, +6dB, et cetera, adjustments. These are your basic gain/attenuation. Best off not to use this feature. Do all your adjusments at the preamp and set the Junkbox to 0 dB. Any settings either way from "0" and signal-to-noise falls off a cliff.
Speaking of preamps, you should know that the line-in input
is easily overdriven, leading to nasty distortion. Definately consumer level gear. One time I was making a recording going mic to preamp to Junkbox. I watched the levels on the LCD level meters on the JB and everything looked fine. Guess what. You can't trust the meters. Upon listening to the recording, it was all distorted. The waveform of the file, viewed in my NLE, was all mowed down. The input was being overdriven but the meters were reading normal.
Speaking of the input. It's 3.5mm miniplug. The socket itself seems rather wobbly/fragile/loose. It'll probably be one of the first things to go on it. What I did is install a right-angle miniplug in there and used a piece of electrical tape to hold it in place. I use this right angle to make all my connections because I don't
think the Nomad's 3.5mm socket is gonna stand up to too many
connect/disconnect cycles.
Other than what I've described above, the JB's an okay unit. The back-lit face is welcome.
If I had to do it over, I would've spent a little more and got
Beas's Marantz. Probably twice the price but four times the value.

Doesn't the Nomad have optical in? If not, it doesn't sound too useful. Thanks for telling us about your experience. I've been pretty curious about this thing, but haven't heard what people's experiences have been like.

Helen, Core Sournds claims their gadget is actually shipping. 24 bit, 192Ks on a PDA! Wow. Still, I'm going to stick with minidisc until I can raise enough money for the SoundDevices hard disk recorder, if they ever manage to release it. Couldn't find the iPod posts at the DV forum. That's something I'd really like to read.

I just wish they made the Korg D12 portable. All it would need is a battery source to be perfect.

Dear Santa~
I finally found the answer to all of my portable audio recording problems. Please check these out, and I would be VERY happy with any one of these. Thank you.
http://www.zaxcom.com/audio/devas.shtml

Actually, I've been looking at the iriver 500 Series as being a *real* alternative to MD. Same price as MD ($299). Half the size and weight. Back-lit face. Twice the storage space (256MB vs. ~150MB). Locking record "on" feature so that recording can't be stopped accidentally. Mic in. Line in. Optical out. Faster-than-real-time uploads. 328Kbps mp3. 90 dB S/N. Plug-in power for electret condenser mics.
Someone here aught to get it and write a review. Hint, hint.
Myself, I'm this close to getting it. I've been kicking around the
idea of pairing it up with a Denecke 48V phantom powering unit and a nice hollywood-type lav mic. Those lav mics don't have the best performance when powered by the 2.5 volts typical of plug-in power.
My main concern, and maybe someone can help with this, is what
type of glitches could there be with flash recorders. I need something very reliable, where the recording isn't going to just
disappear or become inaccessible. Anyone have an idea how much recording time you'd get using the 328Kbps setting?
http://www.iriver.com/product/info.asp?p_name=iFP-590T

I actually started to add up all of the additional gear and the inconvenience and decided that I'd be spending almost as much on a kluged rig (McGivered) as I would on a piece of pro gear.

The DV Mag thread on the iPod is here (http://www.dv.com/forums/showReplies.jhtml?sid=1&fid=3&tid=120300020) I hope. It is currently about number 90 in Audio Solutions.

If you want to dream, at least dream of the Aaton Cantar-X. (http://www.aaton.com)

Best,
Helen

The Cantar X is also about $5,000 less than the Deva... Not too shabby!

"If you want to dream, at least dream of the Aaton Cantar-X."

Man, that thing looks like something out of the movie Alien.

Keith Forman wrote: The Cantar X is also about $5,000 less than the Deva... Not too shabby!

Is it? The Cantar was about 24 thousand bucks when I asked.

What price have you been quoted, and can you say where?

Best,
Helen

$24,000? Holy cow! I just did a Google search for Catar X, and the results had prices ranging from around $2333 to $3000. Maybe I should have actually looked closer... Those prices must have been for the custom neck strap?

I have actually used a diva, which was time coded matched to aaton code on a super 16mm job.

They really are fantastic, but useless to own, you would never see a return unless you rented it out.

Yes we rented all the equipment.

I really don't understand the need to own certain pieces of equipment, if a production needs such high production quality as that.. you would be shooting with expensive equipment anyways, and renting everything.

I think a good mixer and a decent camera, like any of the prosumer cameras, especially say the dvx100 as it's audio is quite good, is enough for most productions.

I have always been tempted to lug down my old reel-2-reel and record sound on that, i recall it having fantastic quality.

Zac

My humble apologies. The Cantar-X is $15,000, not $24,000. I must have been given a pre-production estimate, or my memory failed me. Probably the latter.

Best,
Helen

If you can wait a little, Fostex announced a new field recorder that will have time code option for under $2000 including the time code option.

www.fostex.com/support/pdf/fostex/fr2/fr2_prelim_info.pdf

<<<-- Originally posted by Paul Tauger : I use MD for wild audio capture, but have always been bothered that I can't move the digital audio to the computer and can only do an analogue transfer using my sound card. -->>>

Folks, folks! What is the problem with analog audio going into your computer?

Has your reasoning become so digital that you can't see it's only a means to an end?

MD is a very accurate system for sync dialogue, perhaps losing only to DAT as a proven system.

Many new medias are coming along, most of them based on very expensive recorders and/or very uncomfortable media, particularly HDs. Downloadable medias are really a pain, particularly when built in as on the Nomad, as you have to empty them every day and pray that it doesn't fill up during a shooting day.

Those based on CD or DVD are reliable as long as you are static, and in spite of what they claim I still have to try one to believe they can work well on the move. MD is in this category too, but it seems to work better than the portable CD players I tried.

Those are the prices we are paying to part with head-wearing tapes.

An instantly renewable media, like MD, should be the budget way to go for now, until flash memory and HDs become large and very very cheap.

The iFP-590T records MP3, if I read the specs well. Which is alright for walkman music on your free time, but not a quality system for quality audio. Stay away from MP3.

The PD Audio has some potential and it's competitively priced. I haven't yet tried it so I can't say too much about it. But it looks promising. And very competitively priced. I am waiting for a time-code version to get one.

So go for MD, transfer to your computer via the analog outputs and forget it. One thing you should have, if possible, is a quality sound card on your PC. I use the MIA and love it.


Carlos E. Martinez

Yeah, it is a little anal. From what I've read, you only raise the noise floor by about 3 dbs with the analog transfer. Still, who wants to give that up? I agree, though that the minidisc still seems like the best poor man's way to go for now. The ease of archiving the things is one of its best features. In the stereo, highest quality mode, you get about an hour of recording time. This works perfectly for mini-DV, because you can match one mini-disc to one tape. I would think that every time you clear off your hard disk, it would be one heart stopping moment. How do you know the transfer worked without actually listening to every file? It would take only one failure to seriously ruin your year and reputation.

Paul, how about using a set-top MD player to transfer the audio optically?

Carlos, my understanding, though I may be wrong, is that the iriver's 328Kbps mp3 is equal in quality to MD.

<<<-- Originally posted by Dave Largent :
Carlos, my understanding, though I may be wrong, is that the iriver's 328Kbps mp3 is equal in quality to MD. -->>>

MP3s I and other people I trust have tried were very bad, much inferior to MD. The problem is in the compression, as you probably guess, which is a little bit lossy for MP3.

MD was also bad sounding at first, so maybe things get there sometime with MP3 too.

What I don't like is the fact that manufacturers are selling to us systems that behave worst instead of better. Instead of going for higher bits and higher oversampling to get where we were when digital replaced analogic, they try to convince us of accepting something which is practical but "just a little bit worst". Little by little they are getting us to a place which is not where we should be quality wise.

Carlos

Folks, folks! What is the problem with analog audio going into your computer?

Has your reasoning become so digital that you can't see it's only a means to an end?0010110100 . . um . . . I mean, yeah, you're right. I've gotten very good results with capturing from my MD recorder. The only thing I don't like is that it has to be done real-time; it would be so much faster if I could just pull over the file. Also, MD is limited to 1-hour. The idea of dozens of available hours is appealing.


Paul, how about using a set-top MD player to transfer the audio optically?Hey, you tell my wife why I need YAPOEG (yet another piece of electronics gear). ;) I've kept my eye out for a low-priced set-top box, but have yet to find one. That would be the ideal solution.

Marco,
I was about convinced on the iriver 590 till I read your "heart stopping moment" comment. The iriver transfers at a rate of 6.4Mb/s. Could anyone tell me how much faster that is than real time? Like you said, what *if* there were a problem with the transfer? Do you have to listen to each transfer to make sure it worked okay before clearing the flash?

"Do you have to listen to each transfer to make sure it worked okay before clearing the flash?"

Yeah, I kind of think this makes the real time transfer on the MD a little easier to bear. I actually don't find this so bad, since we only capture the tracks that we use for the final cut. That's only like every fifth take anyway.

"I've kept my eye out for a low-priced set-top box, but have yet to find one."

The Sony MXD-D400 is the cheapest you're going to find new. It's listed at $359.99, but if you ask for a better price they'll go down to $285. It includes a CD player too.

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?ci=1&sb=ps&pn=1&sq=desc&InitialSearch=yes&O=SearchBar&A=search&Q=*&shs=MXD-D400

Ebay might be a good alternative. Minidisc.org has a listing of what products have optical out. Kenwood seems to be the cheapest brand.

If the software that does the transfer is well designed then it should validate that each file has reached its destination correctly and completely. This is true no matter how the transfer is done.

This can be accomplished using a bit for bit comparison but this doubles the transfer time because transfered file must be reread. The most common method is some kind of checksum such as CRC16 or CRC32.

Great tip.

<<<-- Originally posted by Marco Leavitt :
The Sony MXD-D400 is the cheapest you're going to find new. It's listed at $359.99, but if you ask for a better price they'll go down to $285. It includes a CD player too.

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?ci=1&sb=ps&pn=1&sq=desc&InitialSearch=yes&O=SearchBar&A=search&Q=*&shs=MXD-D400
-->>>

Allow me to suggest a better unit, the one I would go today if I were you: a Sony MDS-E10 from B&H.

It's more expensive ($459) but you will have coaxial & optical input/outputs and it's almost exactly like the pro version (E12), which has balanced analog input/outputs. In fact I'd say it's the same less the balanced thing.

Have a look at it here:

http://www.minidisco.com/minidisco-store/mds-e10.html

It also has varispeed, not that it may interest you, but it shows that the machine was done as it should.

In fact I probably will get one, because yesterday I had the chance to make a live music recording in my portable Sharp, using AKG quality mics as a single pair, and renewed my enthusiasm for MD. I better get a full deck before they stop making them.

Today I listened to the disk on my living room and it sounds as if the group is there. They were all acoustic instruments, which are not that easy to reproduce. If this a poor man's way to get things, this is no incentive to get richer!

MD has gone a long way, and I think we should stick with it and take advantage of the present situation.


Carlos E. Martinez

Carlos,
Do you think you'd really notice much difference between going analog-out versus digital?
And which Sharp do you have? I've been looking at the Sharps
MD-DR7 and MD-DR480. Do you know anything about those
models? My main concern is that they're with Japanese
warranty (i.e. must be returned to Japan for service).
You know what I think is odd. Sharp lists three models of portable MD on their USA site. Two have mic-in. Neither of those
two are available *anywhere* in the US that I can find. If
someone knows of a US distributor, please pass it along.

I've been looking at some of these stand-alone MD units (I have a portable Sharp MT-15 which I use for field recording). The problem is, none of them have true digital output. There are coax and optical digital outs, but you'd have to find some kind of card for a PC that would except these (perhaps some sound card?) and software to convert the input into a WAV file.

<<<-- Originally posted by Paul Tauger : I've been looking at some of these stand-alone MD units (I have a portable Sharp MT-15 which I use for field recording). The problem is, none of them have true digital output. There are coax and optical digital outs, but you'd have to find some kind of card for a PC that would except these (perhaps some sound card?) and software to convert the input into a WAV file. -->>>

This thread started, if I am not wrong, on how to go digitally from MD or similar into your PC. My proposal had been to go analog using MD.

The deck model I suggested allows all digital options.

Of course you would need a digital input on your PC. The MIA card I use has coaxial types, which are the only ones I really believe in.


Carlos

Edirol makes a product that will allow you to connect optical outs to the USB port. It's only like a $100. Minidisco's got 'em. No idea what kind of software you would use for the capture, as I'm still doing it analog. The sound is still much better than you would get recording to camera, at least with mine.

Why is coaxial better than optical?

<<<-- Originally posted by Dave Largent : Why is coaxial better than optical? -->>>

Basically 3 reasons:

1) Electronic to optical conversion (output)
2) Cable
3) Optical to electronic conversion.

In one word: interface.


Carlos

I just took a look at two portable recorders at Guitar Center - they're oriented toward musicians but they look like good alternatives. They are both $299, record to Compact Flash cards, support USB in/out, and have built-in mixing capabilities.

1. Fostex MR-8 (http://www.fostex.com/index.php?file=products/digital/mr8)
2. Tascam PS5 Pocketstudio (http://www.tascam.com/product_info.php?pid=274)

I really like the Fostex even though it's twice as big - it has 2 balanced XLR inputs with USB and S/PDIF digital out and two headphone jacks for monitoring.

The Tascam is half the size and has 1/4" un-balanced inputs.

Michael,

Do you know if these upload to your computer in real time or not? Thanks for the links...another option to consider.

Clay

<<<-- Originally posted by Michael Wisniewski :
1. Fostex MR-8 (http://www.fostex.com/index.php?file=products/digital/mr8)
2. Tascam PS5 Pocketstudio (http://www.tascam.com/product_info.php?pid=274)

-->>>

The PS5 is MP3 and should not be used for quality work.

The MR8 looks interesting, as it also has time code capability. But the low price makes me think it shouldn't be a quality tool. It's probably designed for high compression rates, to allow them into a flash card. Such things are not too good quality wise.

But I maybe wrong. Look around to see if you can find reliable info about it. What are you planning to do with it?


Carlos

<<<-- Originally posted by Carlos E. Martinez : <<<-- Originally posted by Marco Leavitt :
Allow me to suggest a better unit, the one I would go today if I were you: a Sony MDS-E10 from B&H.

It's more expensive ($459) but you will have coaxial & optical input/outputs and it's almost exactly like the pro version (E12), which has balanced analog input/outputs. In fact I'd say it's the same less the balanced thing.

Carlos E. Martinez -->>>

That's the listed price for B&H They will drop the price if you call them.

Sony now lists that unit for $630!

hey

anyone trying the iRiver IHP-120. with a decent preamp, should do the job. has optical input. Just ordered one.

might pick up a mic2496 preamp. anyone had any experience with this?

thanks

I've been real curious about iRiver. Please let us know how it works out for you.