Dummy up! Tommy just sent me this e-mail!

I've been looking at EVERY cam the last week or so since selling the Xi and I can't believe the price on the Panasonic PV-DV852 at B&H. They have five in stock and that would be the perfect cam for Alex.

For that price I could pick up a used MX3000 and a brand new DV852 for the price of a black mamba. Mind boggling.

It finally dropped to freezing the other morning and the cheeks are all hibernating. :-(

B&H price for PV-DV852 is $569 USD!

B&H - http://www.bhphotovideo.com

<<<-- Originally posted by Frank Granovski : Dummy up! Tommy just sent me this e-mail!

I've been looking at EVERY cam the last week or so since selling the Xi and I can't believe the price on the Panasonic PV-DV852 at B&H. They have five in stock and that would be the perfect cam for Alex.

For that price I could pick up a used MX3000 and a brand new DV852 for the price of a black mamba. Mind boggling.

-->>>

Today I got a mail from Onecall, offering the Panasonic PVGS70 for $659.44.

Is that camera any good?

Looks very much like the 953, though probably stripped from several things. Optical stabilization looks like one.

Another idea that has been coming into my mind lately is that I will need some device to play my tapes onto my computer, and maybe this camera might be it.

How does it compare with the 953?


Carlos

The PV-DV852 is way better than the PV-DV400, and almost as good as the PV-DV953.I will need some device to play my tapes onto my computer, and maybe this camera might be it.So you already have a miniDV cam? Use it, then, to upload your miniDV tapes into your computer. If you need a cheap deck, why would you want a GS70? Get something cheaper, like an old ZR20. That's all you need.

This was the deal I think I was waiting for!

I've been on the fence whether I should go for the GS70, DV953, or GS100 for quite some time. Problem is, the price vs. features never quite meshed for me for any of them.

I'm convinced that tapeless high-end comsumer cameras are only a couple of years away from being cheap mini-DV beaters. This camera I believe should be a great one, and my last one ever with a tape!

<<<-- Originally posted by Frank Granovski : The PV-DV852 is way better than the PV-DV400, and almost as good as the PV-DV953.-->>>

My question intended to be really whether the GS70 was as good as the 953, in this case for a much lower price.

<<<-- So you already have a miniDV cam? Use it, then, to upload your miniDV tapes into your computer. -->>>

No, I don't have one yet. My decision is not yet taken, perhaps waiting until something more gets to influence and get the balance one way or the other. No doubt money to be invested is a very important factor.

<<<-- If you need a cheap deck, why would you want a GS70? Get something cheaper, like an old ZR20. That's all you need. -->>>

No, I wasn't looking for a cheap deck. In fact one thing I learnt from my recent DV shootings, where I had some problems with a borrowed Canon GL1, was that playing back "problematic" recordings (in this case from that Canon) was not up to most brands. Only Sony cameras or decks seemed to re-construct that recording and provide an usable output.

That would be a matter I would like to listen other DV makers too: the best way to play your tapes. Is this my experience with this tape a common one? Which equipment works better playing
anything that comes their way?

I would also appreciate some answer to my original question too: how does the GS70 compare with the 953?


Carlos

Now that the GS70 is around $650 USD I think its a great value but its lack of OIS and a high resolution 16:9 mode have me looking elsewhere.

The DV953 also has four advanced functions not found on the GS70.

1. manual audio
2. zebras
3. color bar
4. manual sharpness and color

You can go to www.onecall.com and download manuals for both the GS70 and DV953 and find more differences like the DV953 has a f1.6 lens while the GS70 has a f1.8.

I really enjoyed my DV953 and unless you need the smaller size of the GS70 I say the price difference is well worth the upgrade in features and performance.

<<<-- Originally posted by Tommy Haupfear : Now that the GS70 is around $650 USD I think its a great value but its lack of OIS and a high resolution 16:9 mode have me looking elsewhere.

The DV953 also has four advanced functions not found on the GS70.

1. manual audio
2. zebras
3. color bar
4. manual sharpness and color

You can go to www.onecall.com and download manuals for both the GS70 and DV953 and find more differences like the DV953 has a f1.6 lens while the GS70 has a f1.8.-->>>

The lens aperture (just an 1/8 stop less) or the size are not that important.

But all the others really are. It's a lot to lose for that money saved.

<<<--I really enjoyed my DV953 and unless you need the smaller size of the GS70 I say the price difference is well worth the upgrade in features and performance. -->>>

Just curious. You said "enjoyed": don't you have a 953 anymore? What do you have now?


Carlos

Tommy, don't be shy. It's time for your cam list again. I tried looking for it but couldn't find it. Carlos, the GS100 is less of a cam than the PV-DV953, along with lower resolution. It wouldn't be a good cam for DV to film transfers. You are still planning this, right?

Frank has hinted at my sickness of upgrading cams. I really enjoyed the DV953 but decided to move on up to the PDX10 for an even better 16:9 mode which is my primary concern when selecting a cam these days. I downgraded a bit from the PDX10 after I learned about Digital SLR and recently bought the Canon 10D.

Digital Cameras:

Kodak DC280
Olympus D510
Olympus C-700
Sony DSC-F707
Sony DSC-F717
Canon Digital Rebel
Canon EOS 10D

Camcorders:

TRV120
VX2000
MX1000
Optura Pi
GR-DVL9000U
VL-AX1U
PV-DV953
VL-NZ55U
PDX10
Xi

The next cam is probably going to be the black GS100k.

BTW - thats over the last two years. Sadly there are no support groups for people with my condition..

Carlos, I don't think the GS70 is all that hot. The PV-DV852, now there's a cam! It's good in lower light, good controls, low noise, and built solid. The PV-DV852's playback resolution is 530 lines! It's about twice the size of the GS70.

The 852 has optical stabiliser, the gs70 has digital stabiliser.

The 852 is a low light winner (1 lux), the gs70 is worse than the mx500.

The 852 has one ccd, the gs70 has three.

I used to own the MX8 (PAL of the 852), I would use the gs70 for home videos and tours (the small size and weight is really cool).

As far as I know, Panasonic cams plays back recording from Canon (I have used XL-1 and the consumer models), Sony (PD-150, VX2000, and consumer models), Sharp (consumer models) and Panasonic, of course. But all these in SP mode. A little drop-out experienced on the XL-1 on LP mode.

Ordered mine the day this thread started and should arrive Wednesday. Hopefully it will cure the case of "upgrade-itis" I've acquired. [ha!]

Bob

Smart man, Bob! For that price, you can't go wrong!

<<<-- Originally posted by Yow Cheong Hoe :
As far as I know, Panasonic cams plays back recording from Canon (I have used XL-1 and the consumer models), Sony (PD-150, VX2000, and consumer models), Sharp (consumer models) and Panasonic, of course. But all these in SP mode. A little drop-out experienced on the XL-1 on LP mode. -->>>


The question I raised is not for being able to play back a DV tape recorded on any machine, which all should.

But what happens when a certain tape, recorded at SP, has problems. Will the player recover the information and correct the deffects?

This is not theory: I faced such situation. Unaware of potential problems that may arise when you use different DV tape brands, I spent a whole day shooting some interviews with a borrowed Canon GL1 far away from home. My mistake was not having reviewed the tapes on location, believing I was protecting the tapes from dropouts. The tapes were Sony types.

When I came home and reviewed the tapes. After 10 minutes play, the problem I described like "moving puzzle" started. Blocks of image started moving up and down. Two passes of cleaning tape didn't help.

To make it short: only Sony equipment would play the tape fine from then on. Namely a PD150 camera, a DSR11 player and a DSR40 player. A Panasonic DV2500 player refused to play the tapes without doing the "puzzle effect".

So I wonder if Sony equipment isn't using some recovery routine when playing DV tapes on their machines.

About using slower recording speeds like LP, I think it would be foolish paying all that money for a sophisticated equiment like DV953 or MX500 and get lesser quality. Perhaps it would be useful in situations when you don't care for the quality and are worried because of the tape duration. But I wouldn't advise it for quality work.


Carlos

Carlos, you got dirty heads. That's why you saw the "moving puzzle"...Blocks of image started moving up and down.

http://www.dvfreak.com/tape.htm

Why are you using Sony tape? What kind of Sony tape?

I've played back tape shot with a number of cams in Pana cams without problems.

Use good tape (and 1 brand/type) and don't contaminate them.

My order from B&H came Thursday as expected.

All I can say is WOW!

I had upgraded from a 2001 model (PV-DV51).

What a difference a year can make in how technology improves. The picture in a normal indoor lit room at night was amazing.

Fit and finish of the PV-DV852 is great ... the machined aluminum focus ring really looks and feels high quality.

I also bought a HD300 Hoodman for it at the same time. Highly recommend this accessory!

Bob

Got mine yesterday, too.

Excellent low-light performance. Focus and controls are quite good. It's pretty funny looking at the 2.5" screen's frame, which covers up the hole that the 3" screen the MX8 and MX1000 gets.

I remember my first camera: a 1992 or so Sony V-801, which at the time I thought to have excellent low-light and color reproduction. My, how times have changed, and at a inflation-adjusted price that's a good 70% less that what I paid then.

Thanks for the tip, all.

It's pretty funny looking at the 2.5" screen's frame, which covers up the hole that the 3" screen the MX8 and MX1000 gets

I've never understood the difference in LCD screens between these models. Actually the MX1000 has a 3.5" LCD, the MX8 has the 3.0" LCD, and of course the DV852 has the 2.5" LCD.

Do any of you have a widescreen TV to confirm that the DV852 performs an electronic squeeze or just letterboxes in its cinema mode?

Letterbox, pure dark beautifully straight balck bars top and bottom. The MX8 appeared in those days when only the riches even thought of going 16:9 (3 years plus ago).

Yes, very strange indeed, to have 3.5", 3.0" and 2.5" screens. Probably to cut cost. Please note that the MX8 has the widest viewable angle on the LCD for all the MiniDV and digital cams that I have come across. You can see nicely up down left right. In comparison, my current MX350 has 3.5" screen, but only visible correctly in front and about 30° left right and 10° up down. I hope that the 2.5" DV852 is also having good screen.

And you won't regret the wide angle (zoom 1x) at about 35mm equivalent on a 35mm SLR camera. Most prosumer cams start at 40mm and commercial cams (like the Sony cams) start at 50mm. My wife, after using the MX8 and MX350 complained when she was using a friend's upright Sony, needing to back into walls all the time to frame more than 2 people talking!

Regarding the DV852; is there a way to use a mixer and manually ride the audio gain, or does the camera always run the mics in AGC mode? Can the line inputs be used to record live audio from a mic/mixer set-up? Thanks...

<<<-- Originally posted by Dan Brown : Regarding the DV852; is there a way to use a mixer and manually ride the audio gain, or does the camera always run the mics in AGC mode? Can the line inputs be used to record live audio from a mic/mixer set-up? -->>>

The DV852 only seems to allow for AGC mode. Even if what I m saying is just by reading the manual, there are no line inputs to go in with a mixer. You will have to through the mic input.

But there is a trick that I think works on most "reasonable quality" cameras that only have AGC. It worked on my Sony Hi-8 and on the Canon GL1. You should feed in a high mic level.

There seems to be a point where the "pumping" problem every AGC is prone to stops being a problem.

As you probably know this pumping happens because when there is no high level sound the AGC releases the level and the background sound gets higher. When the high level comes back, the background suddenly lowers. The effect is like pumping, that's the reason for the name.

As I have several microphones, I tried plugging them all direct and then using a mixer or preamp. The lower the signal level, like from a dynamic microphone, the higher the pumping problem. And viceversa.

Using a mixer you should have a whole interview and never hear any pumping. That has been my experience.

As all mixers use to have a way to output mic or line level, that should be easy to try. What mixer are you planning to use?


Carlos

Just got an email from B&H and it looks like they have at least one more DV852 in stock as of 5pm EST.

Better hurry!

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh2/controller/home?O=&A=ShowProduct&Q=&sku=242544&is=REG&bi=E15

I received my DV852 today. Rather solid and impressive, but it is too soon to critique its performance. Smaller than I thought too. I really like the manual focus, and the manual iris, shutter and WB are just OK (at least it's an option). The wide end of the zoom is rather wide, so I'm happy with that. Audio sounds fairly good, but the external mic input was obviously never meant to be used. Pretty cheezy. I'm betting the headphone connection is of the same class. But, for $569, it's appears to be a lot of video-bang-for-the-buck :-). Look for my posts in the audio forum as I develop an audio kit to compliment the little Panny.

Thanks for all the good advice.

The MX8/DV852 is pretty "pro-feel" for a consumer model, eh!?

The MX8/DV852 is really one of its kind, Panasonic might have regretted putting too much goodies in one cam!

Too bad, the Japs liked smaller cams (optics, image quality not important, looks of the cam, very important), this little wonder was killed off early.

Look at the new series, GS or GX, all digital stabiliser, lousy placement of buttons and dials, but small and cute. That's responding to the market!

I just bought the DV852 two weeks ago from B&H Photo for $569 (great price!). Well, I ran pricegrabber today and found the 852 at an even lower price!

- $499 (http://www.digitaletailer.com)
- $510 (http://www.buydigitaldirect.com)
- $511 (http://www.butterflyphoto.com)

Oh boy... Looks like they're trying to get rid of their older models. I doubt these would last much longer, so go and buy! I've only had this camcorder for one week, but I absolutely love it so far! If only B&H Photo would do a price-match for me now... :)

You might want to check out those dealers here:

http://www.resellerratings.com

before thinking you might be getting a better deal.

Wow, I just called B&H to tell them that I've found a cheaper price at another web site. They told me they usually don't do price matches, but as a courtecy, they would refund me $19, which would bring the camcorder price down to $550. I'll take what I can get! I'm now even happier than before with B&H! :)

Yes, and those 19 Bucks can go a long way. For example, you can buy one of the following:

1) 3 Fuji mini DV tapes
2) 1 UV filter
3) a head cleaning tape
4) a McMeal for 3 :-))

Hebron,

did you give them any website names with the cheaper price on the phone?...i'm thinking to call them too to check if i can get the same $19 refund...

eBay alert --Monday, Jan 5, 10:30 pm EST:

some guy in Connecticut has 2 DV852 cams on eBay right now--one floor model, and one new in box. Both for $500 with Buy it Now; but reserve is only $440 (get the new one).



BTW, are Fuji tapes recommended above others (if so, which type)?

.i'm thinking to call them too to check if i can get the same $19 refund...There's a miser in all of us.

So which one are you going for with the extra $19?

[list=1] 3 Fuji mini DV tapes
1 UV filter
a head cleaning tape
a McMeal for 3[/list=1]

Sony tapes at Singapore dollars 4.50 each, that's US$2.70 and $19 will get you 7 tapes!

We all can't live in Singapore, though. :-))

Please don't, this is one saturate place already! But visitng Singapore is good for buying electroic stuff.

Frank, your slim pro-UV filter, still getting it?

When I called, they told me that it has to be a reputable company before they would even consider giving me any money back. Out of the three companies that has the 852 at a lower price, I have only heard of Butterfly Photo, so I told them that.

I have been looking at the prices for the 852 at these three companies again and there seems to be something fishy going on. All of their prices went back up to $799, except for Butterfly Photo, which is still $511. However, if you do a search using pricegrabber and click on the butterflyphoto.com link from there, the price is suddenly back to $799. Very strange.

Not yet. Too many new bills, and I've set aside a little something for a mic---I think I need the mic more than the 52mm UV at the moment. I'll let you know when I have a bit of extra jingle in my pockets.

Hebron, I don't think pricegrabber will find you the best deal.

Oh, I forgot to mention... B&H will only consider a price match if you are still within the return period of the merchandise. For camcorders, it is 7 days after you have received it.

Frank: Is there another search engine that will find better prices?

Yes.

It's called ask our very own, Tommy H. He usually knows where the best buys are; and posts them too. :-))