I was wondering if it is possible to hook up a SKP100 plug-on transmitter so it sends the audio out of a mixer and to the cam, if I use the right receiver like the EK100 camera-mountable. Can this be done since the transmitter is meant to power a mic?

Yup, it is easy to do and works well. I use a XLR cable to give the transmitter some aerial to work with. The 18" cables work OK. If the mixer is next to something tall, I use a longer cable and run it up the object.

You can also drop the transmitter off the backside of powered PA speakers. They have a loop-through for line level feeds that are XLR in and out.

BTW, that transmitter does not power the microphone.

this is perfect timing, i was getting ready to post the same question...

i have a friend who is a circus performer and he told me that they had a tv station come to videotape the show for a promo thing and that they put something off of the sound board and put the sound into the camera via wireless...

so, i'm getting ready to buy my first wireless rig, looks like i'm going to be checking out the sennheiser eng 100 and 500 series.

so i want to make sure i understand this, i would take the thingie that is meant to go on the base of an xlr handhelp and put a cable from that to an xlr out on the sound board?

what other options are there? i don't have any experience with sound boards and the circus's often have fairly low-end stuff that is sort of cobbled together.

and you mention the line level feed out the back of PA speakers, is this always line level? is there a way to test this or more importantly, is there a danger of plugging into something you think is a line out and frying something?

i know i need to set the input on the camera for line level vs. mic but what else is there to check?

matthew

Matthew,
Mixer outputs, are only LINE level and not MIC level unless it says MIC (Mackie mixers for exemple do have a mic/line switch at the main outputs). Therefore I would recommend, to add a Direct Box to your Equipment list which will allow you to use line level sources with the Sennheiser plug-on transmitter which is MIC level input.

www.artroch.com/products_main.asp?cat=13&id=68&type=90&show=Overview

ok, so the sennheiser adaptor that goes on the base of an xlr only does mic level.

that makes sense. i guess it was stupid to think that i could just put it into a line level device and then tell the camera to expect line level.

does sennheiser make a device for the eng 100 or 500 line that is specifically meant to transmit a line level back to the transmitter?

also, that box you sent me the link to (thanks!) why is these people have websites with so little real world info like where to buy it, or silly little details like the price?

i would love to get my hands on a pdf of the manual to read it before i buy one.

matthew

never mind. went back and read there site and found more info.

matthew

Most mixers have mic level output these days. A $50 Shure in-line attenuator will take care of the level problem it the one you want to plug into doesn't. They have 2 attenuators, one switchable at 10, 20, & 30 dB and one fixed at 50dB. I have both for the times when the sound guy hands me a very hot microphone level and I need to dump it a bit. Sometimes I need more than 50 dB of attenuation and yet the line-level setting (on a camera) will kill the signal all-together. Must be an impedance issue.

I've yet to find a Direct box with an XLR input. They are meant to hook guitars up, aren't they?

A direct box was recommended by a professional P.A. guy. The Direct box is most commonly used in guitar situations but is also used in Line/Mic situations (with different attenuation settings).

Behringer has a direct box with an XLR connection. Please check out 2.2 on the Behringer instructions for their DI100 (www.behringer-download.de/DI100/DI100_ENG_Rev_F.pdf).

www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=productlist&A=details&Q=&sku=212687&is=REG

<<<-- Most mixers have mic level output these days. -->>>

Mike,
Other then field mixers and the Mackie VLZ series mixers, I did not find sound boards with MIC level outs. I looked at Behringer, Phonic, some Soundcraft and Alesis, but did not have any luck.

Shure has them as do most of the portable units I think.

The big boards seem to have them too. I've hooked up to a fair number in the field.

Thanks for the info on the direct box. I spent a week looking for one with XLR inputs and had no luck. The Behringer is on order.

ok so that box looks great, $40 is hard to beat.

the stupid question is how do you measure what is coming out of the jack?

i am totally new to xlr and really worried about blowing out my equipment.

do you start with the lowest setting and go up?

so i just get an assortment of xlr cables of various flavors to be prepared and then cable the box in between the wireless mic base and the output of the soundboard/speaker?

matthew

Assume you are going to receive a line signal and then if the signal is too low, start removing attenuation until you get where you want to go.

If you can, ask the sound operator to send you a 0 dB tone so you can zero your meters at whatever level is appropriate for the recording system. Then as they (hopefully) manage their sound, they won't (hopefully) send too hot a signal to you.

yeah, the average thing i've done in the past is either a circus where the clown running audio (literally the clown!) doesn't know squat, or it is a public address system where it was setup and the people in charge of the event have no clue, the janitor points them to the mic and the volume control and much of the guts of it is locked up in a closet somewhere!

that is why it probably seems that i'm asking so many stupid questions, because the situations i've been in are pretty rough.

one was a circus in the bahamas where the "sound guy" was really a trumpet player who owned a mini-disc player/recorder and he got roped into going as the sound guy.

his equipment was less than garbage and he wound up running the show on my pocked sized md recorder that i had in my camera bag by coincidence.

i asked him to dupe the show to mini-disc for me and he wound up giving me something that sounded like it was speaker level, it was heavily distorted.

that is why i'm going for the ability to walk into most anything with a wireless transmitter/receiver and a collection of cables and adaptors that will let me take most anything and get it into the camera.

i need to put together a swiss army knife kit of audio cables/adaptors and the base knowledge to get me going and to help me decided what to try when it doesn't work.

matthew

I always try the sound guy for a direct plug-in but I almost always use the Sennheiser plug-on transmitter into a Beta58 with a fur-ball taped on top of a PA speaker with the ball half-peeking over the front.

It almost always sounds as good or better than the direct feed.

And frequently, the venue refuses to allow anyone to plug in.

At large public events, the sound people may put out a press-box that is basically a large collection of XLR outputs with a hefty buffer between those connectors and the sound system that feeds it. That way anyone can get a feed and the sound people don't have to worry about it.

Unfortunately, as you say, they worry about it too little during the setup too. Almost always feeds out somewhere between line and microphone levels. Hence the need for switchable attenuation.

Besides the Behringer direct box that is on its way, I always carry a ground isolator, a transformer isolator and several in-line attenuators. Plus all of the connection adaptors I can find.

Got the Behringer yesterday.

Sigh. Although their specs don't mention it, the input XLR is not balanced. Could cause some real problems with non-standard balanced outputs (which are out there).

So the in-line Shure adapters are still the safest way to go. Isolation transformer and as much attenuation as is required.

can you give more details on the shure attenuators?

models and usage?

matthew

Shure A15LA - 600 ohm line input to 150 ohm microphone level output with 50 dB of attenuation. Works very well when a camcorder doesn't have a line input capability.

Shure AT8202 - 10, 20 or 30 dB attenuation with low impedance in and out. Works well when the microphone (supposed) level out of a mixer is too hot for your microphone settings and too low for your Line settings. Also can be used to tame a too-hot output from a microphone.

Markertek in-line isolation transformer - This makes certain that any possible voltage bias on the source (them) doesn't make its way into your input. Voltage bias can cause different problems with input circuits but in general, it is a bad idea.

Markertek ground lifter- Not connected between pin one on the input and the output and the connector shells are connected by a plastic sleeve. Can absolutely kill ground loops because there is nothing connecting the input with the output but pins 2 & 3 which are the balanced connections. Any signal common to both wires is automatically canceled.

All in all, the 4 bits cost about $180 and all look like XLR barrels with a normal in and out (female and male) connectors.

If you are stocking up on accessories for your audio bag here are a couple more suggestions. First, buy a 100’ XLR cable and a XLR to balanced ¼ adaptor. The XLR outputs on boards can be limited but there is often several ¼” options that will work if you have the adapter. That will keep you from having to go wireless unless you have to, wired is always my first choice.

The XLR input on a Sennheiser transmitter is mic, but the output from the receiver on the 100 series is line level only.

Most press boxes, also known as audio distribution amplifiers usually have a separate gain control for each output. The problem is that it is usually a small slot that requires a screwdriver instead of a standard knob or fader. If you’re getting a poor feed from one, adjust it there.

Matthew, your concerns about level are legitimate and not dumb questions. If you try Mike’s suggestion about taking the loop from the back of powered PA, just remember he said powered. Non-powered PA has a ¼ loop out and you would be getting the speaker level straight from the amp.

Mike, taping microphones to speakers??? Sounds kinda scary to me.

Steve

<<<-- Originally posted by Steven Digges :

The XLR input on a Sennheiser transmitter is mic, but the output from the receiver on the 100 series is line level only.

Steve, I do think the output is adjustable and can be set from line to mic with the output attenuator.

Mike, taping microphones to speakers??? Sounds kinda scary to me.

Steve, Done all the time. What is scary? I learned it from a Channel 7 ENG crew who used a large spring clamp to hold their microphone.

Steve -->>>

Mike,

I make configuration decisions based on 2 primary considerations; goal of the final product (quality), and risk factors.

Hence my preference for going wired as my first option, higher quality and safer. Wireless is sometimes necessary and a good second choice.

Attaching a microphone to a speaker is a technique that makes sense for ENG crews because their primary goal is to make sure they maintain a rock solid signal. High quality sound is a little bit less of a priority (that ought to get somebody yelling at me). Attaching a mic to a speaker removes the audio technician on the board from the equation and lessons risk factors. ENG also requires proficiency in run and gun. Clamping a mic to a speaker is fast and convenient. Also, ENG crews show up after an event is in progress, stay 15 minutes and leave. They understand that unless there is a press box already in place the audio guy is not going to be crazy about patching them into a hot board.

Scary? Yes and I disagree with “the quality is as good as a feed from the board”. The reason this technique requires having just half of the ball peaking out from the top of the speaker is to defeat the pick up pattern on the mic. That same mic pointed at the speaker from the same distance would probably damage the internal components of the mic if we are talking about any reasonable level of volume. Vibration is also a concern that must be dealt with. If the PA is run stereo you are only picking up one channel. No matter how many audio components are being utilized to processes the signal (EQ, compressors etc.) you now leave your self dependent upon the quality of the chosen speaker for your feed, many times I have seen beautiful audio racks putting out signal to junk speakers.

I feel that putting that same mic on a stand at an optimal distance from the speaker is a better solution when getting a good feed from the board is not possible. No offence intended, your suggestion is in common practice, it is just not one of my favorites unless I am ENG.

Steve

PS The Sennnheiser EK 100 receiver has a variable output from 0-40 db. Thank you, I stand corrected. I own one and did not realize it was that wide, that should tell you something about my information.

Using a Beta58 with a plug-on transmitter where the head of the microphone is inside a windscreen (the fur type) is still a good choice. The speaker is not going to be able to damage the microphone since the microphone is over the horn, not the bass driver. The Beta58 is Omni so I'm not screwing up the pattern. The shock mounting of the capsule in that microphone probably wouldn't pick up vibration if one used it for a hammer.

Placing a stand in front of a speaker at any reception I've been to is just asking to see it knocked onto the floor.

The most important part of a reception and the one I can never piggyback microphones the on the people making toasts. They have to have the PA microphone so everyone can hear them. They don't want to hold another mic and it is way too cumbersome to ask them to wait while one adds a wireless lav. And they sure don't want to see a boom moving in either.

For voice, it is hard to tell the difference between the mic on the speaker and a direct feed.

I always overdub any music played at a wedding. That one is just too hard to do right and so easy to just dub onto another sound track in editing. Never had a bride that couldn't get that for me. In fact, some want me to use a different arrangement or an entirely different piece of music sometimes.

When I really have to get good music, i.e., when there is a live ensemble or something else, then I do mic the sound directly. I wouldn't trust the sound guy do do that properly. But that is a different matter.

Usually sound guys are a real disappointment as a feed for music. They have no interest in working with the videographer and frequently don't understand their gear well enough to help.

Mike,

I have no intention of turning this into an argument, I am well aware of the decorum here, but I will continue to offer my suggestions. As I said no offence, we just have a difference of opinion.

First, next time you do this technique, hold the mic directly in front of the speaker (the horn if you like), with your wind screen, and see what you get for a signal. It will not be the same as skirting the fringes of the pick up pattern; in fact it will be unusable. A Beta 58 is an incredibly durable microphone and probably will not be damaged, just look at them, half of the Sure 58 series microphones in existance have dents in the wire ball and still work. Personally, I try to treat ALL mic’s as though they are delicate instruments.

Recording the music at a reception is not “just too hard to do right”. Get a feed from the sound guy, who, at most weddings is not an audio specialist, but a DJ. Tape your mic to the speakers (your style, not mine) for the spoken word and send his music and your mic feed through a small mixer to get the level correct and you no longer have to recreate the music in post. Just one of the wonderful things of all of this digital video these days is our audio options. A small mixer and 4 tracks of audio on the tape create a multitude of options and incredible results.

Mike, I have no doubt that you know much more about the technicalities of audio than I. I am a jack-of-all-trades in the audiovisual world. That gives me one strength, I never forget the basics. Signal flow is always no. 1, how good that signal becomes is dependant upon my abilities.

Steve

PS every time I see a tech. using one of my SM58’s for a hammer it makes me mad:)

Interesting discussion guys. A couple of comments.

We hang SM58s over guitar amps all the time; further than peaking usually. We've even been known to hang a sturdy condenser over a guitar amp. They don't need to be quiet, 58s can handle tons of noise. This technique sounds great, not clean exactly,but much more realistic(and rockin) than a DI.

Shure is pretty sure that their Beta 58 is a super-cardiod dynamic mic. Fairly even off-axis response, judging from the diagram.

We recently took a tap off a djs board, at a wedding, ran a cable a few feet away from his gear and plugged in the transmitter from a evolution 100 series. I had some drop outs when I went into other rooms. It got what I needed it too, much cleaner than my room mic. But I'll probably mix the two. The DJ was super cool, let us do whatever we wanted as long as it didn't get in his way, but maybe that's just the way they are in College Station, TX.

I've been planning on getting the EW100 receiver
and pairing it up with the EW500 plug-in transmitter.
I, of course, was planning on getting them as
seperate components. I just ran across a combo
deal on the EW500 receiver with the EW500 plug-in
for less money than the aforementioned 100 + 500
setup. What's the difference between the 100 and
500 receivers? Which combo would you get, cost
being equal?

Martin,
Thank you for being a voice of reason and diplomacy. Tactfulness is not one of my strengths. Your comment about “Shure is pretty sure that their Beta 58 is a super-cardiod dynamic mic” made me laugh because it is so true. In my passion over this topic I have clearly committed a Dvinfo net crime by not clearly thinking through every aspect of my responses. I value the information I gain here so much I cringe at the thought of me spewing bad information. The Sure 58 series Mic’s are the world’s most popular mic because they are so durable and can be used in almost any situation, including your tool belt when necessary. I do know and understand that a 58 will not be damaged in front of a speaker, sorry Mike I know that’s not what I said earlier.

Mike,
My passion for this topic comes from years of experience working corporate audiovisual events, many of which have budgets well over $50,000.00 a day just for equipment rental. I have worked all aspects of these programs, audio, video (beta & digital) lighting, projection, and technical direction. On countless occasions I have walked into a room and found the audio technician having difficulty with something and pulling his hair out. Many of them are much more knowledgeable than me in the areas of condensers, frequency response ranges and so forth. On a lot of those occasions I have been able to troubleshoot the problem quickly because of my strong belief in staying with the basics. Ninety percent of the time a bad signal is being output or recorded because of a simple error or oversight that has to do with signal flow; attenuation, routing, cables, power issues etc. That is why I harp on about keeping things simple, safe, and high quality. A delicate balance.

On the subject of recording video at live events I feel I have much to offer as I have worked all sides of it, from broadcast projects to digital documentation. For example I have been the guy on the board hundreds of times when a video operator shows up, remember, I too am a video guy, so if they arrive early enough I will bend over backwards to provide them with anything they need to ensure a quality feed. If they show up 5 minutes before kick off, run over and shove a XLR cable into my face and scream “Gime a feed” they are dead in the water. When I have time to do it properly I will start a thread on recording at live events, and hope that you and many others here will join in. That particular topic comes up often but usually emerges from a thread of a different start.

Steve

I have to make one more contribution and end this with a funny story (I gotta some work done). Several years ago I was working a gig where the MC was a woman well known in broadcasting. I was the on the video switch and the audio engineer was a friend of mine that was an outstanding operator. He told me he was worried because we had so much Meyer PA flying from the truss in a low ceiling ballroom and he did not want to feed back with such a professional personality about to step up to the podium. Well she stepped up all right; she did the usual “may I have your attention please” routine several times. The din in the room was loud and everyone was ignoring her. My friend was gently pushing the gain until I could tell by the look on his face he had no headroom left and people would not shut up even though she could clearly be heard over the din. It made her mad to be ignored so she suddenly slapped the head of the SM99 hard with a spoon! It sounded like a bomb went off. I thought the Meyer was coming down. After the initial screams the room fell dead silent and there she stood in front of a SM99 she killed with a spoon. It was one of the funniest things I have ever seen. So much for being professional.

Dave,
I have the 100 series and love it but there are people here that can help you much more than I in debating the 100 vs 500.

Get the 500. It's a 100 with goodies. Like battery life reporting back to the receiver from the transmitter. Not to mention the Phantom power to the mic from the plug-on.

One thing I've found confusing is that the 100
plug-in transmitter is advised to be used with a
metal mic as the mic is the antenna. (Is aluminum
considered "metal"?) And of the 500 plug-in, I've read that the antenna is *internal*. Is there anything to this?
Signal reception should be identical between the
100 and the 500, right? The difference is just
the goodies, right?

Mike,
To my knowledge, the "battery life reporting back to the receiver from the transmitter" feature is only on the half rack receiver and not on the camera mountable model.

No S$%& ! Darn. I've only got the 100 manual. A Senn rep told me that it did go back to the bodypack receiver. Good thing I didn't order one although the real reason to buy one would be to use with my Shure SM81C (which can take overloads as well as the Beta58).

Most metallurgists consider aluminum to be a metal. :-) Back in the days of housetop TV antennas (remember them?) they were mostly made of aluminum. Gawd, I must have sold a zillion of those as a teenager working in Radio Shack!

I just tried my new 100 kit, and the signal transmitting range is phenomenal in open air. Both on the plug-on and the lav pack. Haven't tested the limits in closed spaces, different rooms, etc.

Steve is right about checking in with the sound man in a timely fashion. Getting there well before the event starts, chatting up the FOH tech and letting him see you know the diffo between mic & line, what an XLR is, etc. makes all the difference in the world, and if I am at a venue where I can actually access the guy, they have pretty much always been pleasant, especially when I start talking about what's their favorite amp or board or effects unit, etc. (I have been around this stuff pretty much all my life)

As for DJs, most of them don't seem to know Jack S*** about audio, although when I am DJ ing I'll always help the videographer in any way possible, as long as they understand that the feed off the DJ board is not going to be +4 dB...or even balanced for that matter. Then of course I haven't seen that many wedding videographers around my area that know much more than which end of the camera is the front. OOOOH, that ought to start people yelling at me! (Actually it is kind of sad, so many of the ones I see are just photographer's assistants pressed into duty hauling a video camera as kind of sell-on to the picture package) Maybe it's a good opportunity for those of you guys who actually are good to knock these guys out.

I just auditioned the Samson Airline sytem. Got about 90 (+/- 10) feet reception "line of site" before drop-outs.
Same for both lav and plug on.

ok i had thought that the senn 500 definitely had the battery level on the "on camera" unit?

what is the biggest difference between the 100 and the 500?

i was really liking the 500 and the battery status was a big deal, one less thing to worry about.

matthew

4 differences of the 100 vs 500

1) Balanced Output: 100 no | 500 yes
2) Freq. Presets: 100 = 4 | 500 = 16
3) Headphone Output: 100 no | 500 yes
4) Phantom on Plug-on: 100 no | 500 yes

I went to the Senn site. It said max output
is +4 dBu for the unbalanced outputs on both the
100 and 500 receivers, and + 10 bBu for the 500
balanced output. I guess in practical terms that
means less gain has to be dialed in with the balanced
to get the same volume out. Maybe affords a lower
noise floor, then?
One thing I noticed is that the included lav, the ME2,
is listed as having one of the highest sensitivity
levels that I've seen. I happened to check this
figure because I had recently been shopping for lavs.
The ME2 sensitivity is listed at 20 mV/Pa. The
Countryman B6 is 10 mV/Pa, the Sony ECM-88 is
13 mV/Pa, and the Sanken COS-11 is 17 mV/Pa.
Now, Senn offers the systems in three frequency
ranges (A, B, C) and you pick from a chart according to which of the three has the least number of TV
stations in your area. If I were to get two
systems, should I get two different frequency
ranges (for example an "A" range and a "C" range)
or am I okay getting two "C"s and there'll be
plenty of seperation? I just would keep them
some distance apart?

Dave, you can run them side-by-side with no interference.

I've been able to pick up a B&G when I was at the head of a valley and they were down around the grape vines so far away that I could just make out a little bit of face detail (nose, eyes) and the Senn was sending loud and clear.

The ME2 is great for picking up the B&G whispers. But you do need to remember to turn on the attenuator when you are doing 'normal' work.

I just finished a sequence of taping actors where the sound was apparently normal all the way but if the actor was voice-powerful (like acting for stage instead of film) the microphone would overload the input ckt. Made the sound a bit fuzzy. Could not hear that outside even with good headphones.

Mike, that's the thing, if you have people with theatre group experience, you have to tell them "remember this for the small screen (TV) and not the stage." This includes not projecting their voice to the back row and also curtailing expansive gestures.

And sometimes it's hard to notice distortion even on a pair of 7506's, don't know why but it's all too apparent on playback back at the shop.

As for distance pickup of the Senn Evo, I sent my daughter walking up the street with the transmitter while I listened on the cans thru my XL1. She was well out of sight when I finally callled her off, and I could still hear the clip-clop of her Steve Maddens on the pavement, and the water rushing throug the storm drains as she walked over them, to say nothing of her voice crystal clear. I think this rig is gonna work out fine for a lot of my projects.

Mike, I teach Acting for Television. Too many stage actors cannot make the transition to the small space and the small voice.

As Michael Caine says, "when you are doing nothing, you are just about right for the screen."

Mike,

That's so true, a CU or XCU shot picks up every eyebrow flick and a properly mic'ed shot picks up every breath. Just not the same as trodding the boards.

Speaking of Michael Caine, have you heard they are doing a remake of his '60s hit "Alfie?" With Jude Law in his role. Big shoes to fill.

Interesting.

I think the student participants in his BBC video, Acting for Film, are doing parts from Alfie. I never saw the original. Guess I'll have to go find it.

If you haven't seen that BBC training video, try to find it. It's out of print but really worth the effort to track a copy down.