Between JY-HD10U and XL1s, which one is better, interm of picture quality?.

What you are asking is not easy. Comparing an HD cam to a DV cam in term of picture quality is like comparing oranges to apples. Perhaps people with a better knowledge of both cams can point you to some differences on the feature set of theses two camcorders.

The XL1s will give you a better standard-definition image.

The HD10u will give you a better high-def image.

So, what are you shooting -- HDTV or NTSC/PAL? That'll help you make up your mind as to which camera will produce the better image for your needs.

If you shoot in HD - then downconver it to SD - you will have a better image than something aquired in SD.

It's simple - the computers compute all the bits to make up a new version of your video - minus whatever it feels is redundant information. (ok, the computer is making the choice. we might disagree, but we're not choosing ever bit...the computer is and that's why choosing a good codec is important.) The more bits you have - the more the computer has to compute/calculate the final version. The final result will be a better video if the computer has LOTS of information to re-calculate.

Does that make sense? I'd Google the word "codec" and read up a little...it's something we should all know about. In short, it means (Co) "Compress" - (Dec) "Decompress". Whenever you take a piece of video into your computer and change it to a new version by taking away "bits" you are using a codec. The whole video community is always in search of the best codec because it means your original video will remain closely intact when you change it....so, HD brought down to SD will always be better than SD not even touched.

On small note: None of this takes into account the optics of the cameras etc. That's another story all together...if a camera has incredible optics and other inside guts...it sure can make a difference. However, it's safe to say that HD cameras have decent optics and guts...otherwise, what's the point?

Murph

Thanks for all :)

So, if I buy the HD10U, can I still put on DVD and play with the standard TV?. Or does it have to be play on HDTV only?.

I really like the JY-HD10U, but because it's so new and I want to research all the pitfall/ trouble before making decision buying it. What I don't like is that this camera is not Len (interchangeable)...

Again, thank you for helping me.

somxai

The answer is YES. You can because its not different than any other video file needing encoding for DVD playback.

It's not difficult...don't worry and get the HD10u! :)

Murph

Anyone know where I can buy the JY-HD10U for a better price?.

I saw one at this website http://www.expresscameras.com/cart/prodetails.asp?prodid=8698&start=1

It's only $2,189.00. I just not sure if this website is true that it's the JY-HD10U even it said so. Because the HD1 is already $3500.00 at sound track. I just don't think the professional one would cost only less than the comsumer version of the camera.

If you know where has a better price and sure that when I get it, it would be the JY-HD10U, I would very much appreciated.

Thanks in advance.

That seems to be TOO low in price, and the number one rule is, if it's too good to be true, it probably is! I don't want you to get in trouble!

I went with a Camera Dealer, which was FANTASTIC, but you may want to go with B&H (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/?BI=155) to save some money vs. a dealer.

heath

I bought the HD10 for HiDef, but I realize now that there will be many times when SD will still be needed. The problem is getting a quality conversion, and crop the image to 3:4. (I have never been a fan of letterbox.) You can make analog copies from the camera as letterbox or anamorphic - but not cropped. I have a post on the editing forum on using TMPGEnc to make cropped DVD. I am very pleased with the quality - and I have the HD master as well.

If anyone has a place to post it, I could make a short DVD compliant MP2 file with some samples.

So! Dave, should I go with HD10U?. Hmmm I know I asked over and over again. I don't have $$ and I don't want to waste it on a camera that will not work right for me. The camera will be for shooting movie/ home movie...wedding

Oh with the JY-HD10U, can I still use my Avid Express and Adobe Premiere Pro software to edit the footages?. or do I have to purchase additional editing software for it?.

I understand Avid stopped by JVC's factory last November. This is from Ed Sherry at JVC.

heath

<<<-- Originally posted by David Kennett :
If anyone has a place to post it, I could make a short DVD compliant MP2 file with some samples. -->>>

Dave, I have a server you can use to host those files (e-mail address is in my profile).

<<<-- Originally posted by Christopher C. Murphy : If you shoot in HD - then downconver it to SD - you will have a better image than something aquired in SD. -->>>

That's only if all other things are equal, and in this case they're definitely not.

The HD1, a base-level consumer camera (although with HD resolution) cannot be compared to the XL1, an outdated but once premium 3CCD camera. If they were comparing a consumer 1-chip DV camera against a consumer 1-chip HD camera, hence all other things being equal, then your statement would hold correct.

Again, this very question (or a strikingly similar facsimile of it) was addressed by JVC on their HD1 FAQ. The question was "how does the HD1 compare to a top NTSC 3CCD camera" and in their answer they acknowledge that the 3CCD camera would have better latitude, color rendition, saturation, etc.

<<<-- Originally posted by Barry Green : <<<-- Originally posted by
Again, this very question (or a strikingly similar facsimile of it) was addressed by JVC on their HD1 FAQ. The question was "how does the HD1 compare to a top NTSC 3CCD camera" and in their answer they acknowledge that the 3CCD camera would have better latitude, color rendition, saturation, etc. -->>>

I hope you aren't referring to this quote from the JVC HD1 FAQ page:
Would 3 CCDs be superior to 1 CCD?
For absolute picture quality, yes. But there are practical trade-offs. 3 CCDs would provide superior accuracy of color reproduction, and would provide superior resolution for same density of CCD. However, the 3 CCD camera would be larger, heavier and draw more power which requires a larger battery. The 3 CCD camera would, also, increase the price of the unit.

If you are then you seriously misinterpret it. JVC makes no mention of NTSC. They are commenting on 3CCD vs. 1CCD technologies at the same resolution. You cannot reach your conclusions from this. Furthermore, a FAQ is aimed at nontechnical readers and is not always rigorous. They did not mention "latitude, color rendition, saturation, etc." either. They said color accuracy and resolution (which I personally interpret to be sharpness).

Without arguing the merits of the XL1 vs. the HD1, I'll point out that the HD1 in HD mode has far more chroma bandwidth than any DV camera possibly can.

It was once claimed by laserdisc lovers that DVD could not possibly approach the quality of laserdisc "because it was compressed and laserdisc was not". Ignoring the fundamental ignorance of that argument, it has been shown to be untrue. I believe we have an analogous situation here.

I'll stand by my statement.

HD downconverted to SD will always be better than SD not converted. It's a mathmatical fact based on what a codec has to work with while calculating the new version. The more information available - the better the final image.

I did mention that optics and inner guts of a camera will play a part in the overall images of any camera. However, the fact is that any HD camera has the basics to do the job correctly.

Murph

As my friend Jon once said, it's also what you see on a high quality TV monitor. If one looks better than the other, go with it.

hwm

In responce to Som Xai's concern about choice of HD1 o HD10, I relate the following story.

First, let me say that I am retired from almost forty years in broadcasting and television production. Last summer I got excited about the HD1-10 after seeing samples here and other places. I wanted to see an HD-10, and asked the folks at Industrial Video here in the Cleveland area to call me when they got one in. In late June they called. I collected my checkbook and a blank DV cassette, and I was off to Industrial Video.

Upon arriving, I was pleasantly surprised to hear that they also had an HD-1. I put my cassette in the HD-10 and shot some scenes in and outside the store. I then duplicated the scenes with the HD-1. The lower resolution of the HD-1's viewfinder was immediately apparent.

We rewound the cassette, and hooked the camcorder (via component) to a Panasonic 50" HD plazma. I was not disappointed. It was obvious though, that the HD1 had edge enhancement that was a little more than I wanted. A comparison of shots of a STOP sign clearly showed black edges around the white letters using the HD1. The HD-10 properly displayed the white letters on the red background. I think the HD-10's enhancement is more appropriate for HD video.

It was too much! My checkbook came out, and the HD-10 came home. I began shooting HD, and learned to make do with the pitiful editing program that came with the camera. My computer monitor was too small, and I soon wanted bigger pictures. I took a cassette I had edited, packed up the cassette, camcorder, and the component output cable that came with it, and I was off to a neighborhood Best Buy. The friendly (and inquisitive) salespeople helped me connect the camcorder to a 50" Samsung DLP rear projector. I was happy. The sales guys were amazed. And I went home pleased. Another month went by and I repeated this procedure (at another Best Buy).

By the middle of September, I had weakened considerably, and a price reduction sealed my fate. I came home with a Samsung HLN5065W 50" DLP set. My TV viewing has been ruined. Old-fashioned TV looks so blah. I watched the Rose Parade in HD on New Years day, and even my HD-10 material looks far better than any standard broadcast stuff. I can never go back!

Dave -

You are one of the lucky ones who have seen the light. It's amazing how many "DV" guys seem to give opinions on "HD" - when they don't even own an "HD" camera.

The bottom line from you and I (two owners of HD cameras and TV sets) -- is that HD rocks and that is that.

The HD10u is worth the money - end of story. Let's talk about something else...

Murph

<<<-- Originally posted by Som Xai : Oh with the JY-HD10U, can I still use my Avid Express and Adobe Premiere Pro software to edit the footages?. or do I have to purchase additional editing software for it?. -->>>

You can only edit videos from the HD10U shot in its substandard DV mode. If you want to edit HD video from that cam, it's more ccomplicated and you are limited to the NLE you can use.

Christopher. Please show us something shot with the JVC. I'm amazed that after so long since the camera has been out, the only professional project I've seen shot with the JVC was the low-rez version of the Red Bull commercial. If the strength of this cam is in a studio setting, why hasn't there been more examples of it? Perhaps I just missed them?

The files are to large to post - that's one reason. HD files are huge.

Also, watch Amercian Chopper - apparently it was shot partially on HD01u. You can also get the Jumpstart guide to see some down-rezed versions.

What you are asking for isn't really possible without someone going way out of their way - like sending you a produced DVD data disk with a finished short film or something. If you want that in full HD - you'll end up having to pay for it. It's work man...plain and simple. It's easy to down-convert and post little clips. But, not HD clips which are huge...and if you wanna see HD clips then get them from someone who has time to make something and mail it to you. My bet is that if someone has done pro work on the HD10u - they're not interested in spending time trying to convince others of the cameras worth. They are living it and not talking about it.

It's almost like me saying, "Go buy a camera." Are you going to do it? No. So, asking people to get you something that's not easy isn't really practical...like I said, there are HD clips posted, but they are small one shot clips. Why? Because it's the only practical way to share a clip.

Maybe someone will put up an FTP site that has gigs and gigs of produced HD material, but I doubt it...anyone?

Murph

Frederic Haubrich has a commercial he created in HD available online
http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?s=&threadid=18954
It is in 3vix format and Frederic says there are compression artifacts and green screen issues, I think it looks pretty darn good though.

American Chopper wasn't shot on HD1s, another show, probably American Hot Rod, was shot on the HD1 or HD10.

heath

The show you are talking about was neither American Chopper or American Hot Rod. But made by the same producers. I still can't talk about the show as it is still in the pre production stages but will air in a few months. I will keep everyone updated when I hear about the exact air date.

OK, Thank you for all.

This is enough information. I will go get it.

I still say go HD10. Too bad about the Broncos, btw. Denver is the place of my birth, though I've lived in Florida for 20 years of my life (I'm 28).

heath

Heath,

Hahaha...Broncos is always weak at the end of the season.

Yep I am going with the HD10U

It's easy to down-convert and post little clips. But, not HD clips which are huge...

Ok fair enough, but going by your logic, down converted HD footage from the JVC would look much much bettter than SD footage that has gone thru the same process. So a sized-down version of work from this cam would suffice.(Like the redbull one) And considering that the same group who purchases prosumer DV cams are purchasing these JVC cams, and we see TONS of samples from other cams, I would expect the JVC owners to post their work as well. But we haven't seen much (at least I haven't) in this active forum, which suggests to me that good results is hard to come by with this equipment. Seeing how passionate the JVC owners here are, the argument that no one is going to bother their time to post any good studio footage is hard to believe. With th

Hey, I've shot a few things and edited them...I'd post them if there were a place to hold a gig file. But, there isn't anywhere online to post gig files man! I know you're thinking that people who have this camera are not getting good footage, but I am telling you right now that I have shot some life-like footage with the HD10. I've got a shot from my backyard on a nice overcast day that was immaculate - I shot drops of water falling off leaves and my girlfriend and I watched it on my laptop. She said, "It's like I can reach in and touch the footage - it's the clearest thing I've ever seen."

That's coming from a girl who knows zero about video - and we OWN an HDTV that gets HDTV cable! The closest we've gotten to it - the PBS loop. She's said the HD10u I have shoots footage that "looks like the PBS travel stuff you put on". I've done "taste tests" with her - she says that the HD10u has given "better footage" than anything on our HDTV. I've got Monster cables, a line conditioner on my HDTV...it's top notch.

Granted, the footage I've shown her (quite a bit) is the best I've shot. It was lit nicely - all natural light was the best. The inside stuff was excellent, but probably suffered because I didn't light professionally. I've got an ok lighting setup - however, I plan to shoot something in my television studio at work. That's be controlled indoor lighting.

In short, this HD10u produces AMAZING footage if you light it right. It's been said 1000 times on this board. It's not an argument anymore. You are asking for someone to post non-down-rezed footage. Sure, if you provide a massive storage space...got a few gig FTP site? I'll post some native HD footage for you.

Murph

...I would expect the JVC owners to post their work as well. But we haven't seen much (at least I haven't) in this active forum, which suggests to me that good results is hard to come by with this equipment. Seeing how passionate the JVC owners here are, the argument that no one is going to bother their time to post any good studio footage is hard to believe.
Don't know why you say that. People's failure to post things you'd like to see is not evidence that it can't be done. JVC owners here may are passionate, but I'd say their passion is countering blatant anti-JVC propaganda such as "You can only edit videos from the HD10U shot in its substandard DV mode. " What a crock.

Not all JVC owners shoot in a studio either. I've just received my housing for the HD10 so I'll soon be ready to test in my underwater "studio".

Incidently, Yang, I've had no problems editing HD footage in Premiere and Vegas.

Using Pixlet, a 14 second HDV uncompressed was 500 mb! But I don't want to get off topic into video editing...Let's try and stay on topic.

heath

Hey buddy, next time try not to spin the facts!

<<<-- Originally posted by Craig Jones : "You can only edit videos from the HD10U shot in its substandard DV mode. " What a crock. -->>>

This was a reponse to a question of whether the footage from the cam can be edited in PremierPro and XpressDV w/o additional software purchases. There is NO way of editing the HD footage in XpressDV and you'd need additional software to edit the HD footage in Premier. In the next sentence, I said if you want to edit HD footage, it will be more complicated. Craig, your convinient cutting and pasting make it sound like I said you can't edit HD footage from this cam. Please adhere to the facts, it is well documented, if you make the effort to scroll up and read all the threads.

OK, so here's the entire quote:
<<<-- Originally posted by Som Xai : Oh with the JY-HD10U, can I still use my Avid Express and Adobe Premiere Pro software to edit the footages?. or do I have to purchase additional editing software for it?. -->>>

You can only edit videos from the HD10U shot in its substandard DV mode. If you want to edit HD video from that cam, it's more ccomplicated and you are limited to the NLE you can use.

Christopher. Please show us something shot with the JVC. I'm amazed that after so long since the camera has been out, the only professional project I've seen shot with the JVC was the low-rez version of the Red Bull commercial. If the strength of this cam is in a studio setting, why hasn't there been more examples of it? Perhaps I just missed them?
Sure doesn't seem like I took anything out of context, Yang. Hardly any context to ignore. Your words were quite clear.

I've edited HD footage in Premiere and Vegas without additional software though software is available for that. Your claim, at least regarding PremierePro, is incorrect.

Everyone, let's try and stay on topic; any discussion on editing should be kept in the HDV Editing Solutions forum. (http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/forumdisplay.php?s=&forumid=63).

Thanks,

heath