I hope I am not making an ass out of myself but:

I originally thought that the GL2 was the camera for me, then I came to this forum.

I have gone through as many of the threads on this as I can. From what I can tell:

The DVX-100 is out of my price range and 24p is not critical to my needs.

The DCV-80 at first and second look appears to be the camera that I want, XLR, right color – silly, yes I know – it has the right lens – wide, don’t care much for tele, I work close and tight.

But, the GL2 does not appear (based upon opinion) to be the comparable camera of the DVC-80.

The GL2 seems be compared with the yet to be available DVC-30

But, the 80 and the GL2 from what I can tell are just about the same price and features?

So what I cannot find is what distinguishes the 30 from the 80. And if people are waiting to run out and get the 30 why aren’t they getting the 80 which seems to be only a couple of hundred more?

Sound confusing, it should because I am.

Any thoughts?

Use: documentary photography, people up close and personal.
For: broadcast. Dvd, and VHS tape.

Extra information not necessarily germane to the question:

I am still photographer with a little bit more than 2O years of experience mainly in photojournalism. I just worked on two projects that I feel would have been better served by being done on film/video. So, I decided to branch out into video.

I too am waiting to upgrade my camcorder. To me the DVC30 is closer to the GL2 but with newer CCD's and DSP processing but smaller zoom. I often rent equipment and last summer I rented a DVC200 and a DVX100 to go with my Sony TRV50 in covering a performance in a theatre. The differences were very obvious. Size of CCD's, and lenses had a very big effect. As expected the AG-DVC200 with 1/2" CCD's and a Fuji 19x lens was sharp and had great depth in the image, the DVX100 was good but closer to the consumer TRV50 in wide angle (I used the TRV50 to cover the full stage shot throughout performance with DVX100 for an angle view). I now have a problem as for the cost of one of the 1/3" cameras I could rent the DVC200 for a long time!!!!! The promise of the AG-DVC30 is improved low light performance and image improvements using 12bit DSP which places it in the processing realm of the big boys.
Another camera that you may want to look at is the JVC 300REM. 1/3" CCD. 14x zoom, already has 12bit A/D etc and the REm version can be controlled by the Varizom controller that controls zoom, focus and aperture. Might be the best of the bunch at this time.

Ron

Thanks for clouding the issue further, no seriously, I appreciate your response but your suggestion is out of the budgetary ballpark.

I'm going to keep focused on finding out the distinction between the DVC-30 and the DVC-80 in opposition to the GL2.

The DVC30 is the closer match to the GL2. The key distinguishing features of the GL2, vs. the DVC80, is the GL2 is 1/4" CCD's (vs. 1/3" in the DVC80) and has a 20x zoom (vs. 10x on the DVC80).

Whereas the numbers are much closer between the 30 and the GL2: the DVC30 has 1/4" CCD's (similar to GL2, but 2 or 3 years newer) and a 16x zoom (much more comparable to the GL2's 20x).

Yes, the GL2 costs about the same as a DVC80. Which means either the GL2 is overpriced, or the DVC80 is a screaming bargain, whichever way you choose to look at it.

Also the DVC80 is 60i ONLY.

Both the GL2 and DVC30 have a "progressive" frame movie mode.

I went back and found a post that sort of made it seem that the DVC-80 was rushed out, and that the DVC-30 is a less expensive upgrade. Now as far as this interplacing thing goes for my purpose, newsy type of documentary work is that that big a deal? My understanding that it isn't.

thanks for the input.

I think the DVC80 is a logical move for Panasonic. In functionality it is a fair comparison to the PD150/170 or the JVC 300U/REM. It addresses the market for people like me who do not want to pay for 24P or progressive that we will not use. The DVC30's attraction is that it promises improved performance in a 1/4"CCD with improved DSP etc. We will have to wait and see if this really makes a difference in the real world. Yours choices at the moment :-
1/4 approx------Sony TRV950
Sony PDX10 DVCam
Canon Gl2
1/3" Sony VX2100
Sony PD150/170
Sony DSR250
JVC 300U/REM
Panasonic DVX100a
Panasonic DVC80
1/2" Panasonic DVC200
JVC DV5000
SOny 500 series expensive

From your budget indications its the TRV950,Gl2, VX2100 or DVC80 I think. Neither of these Sony's gives you as much control over image as the Gl2 or DVC80( Sony leaves off gain control so that you will need to move to the DVCam models to get gain control!!!). If you want to point and shoot any of them will work. If you want to experiment with image control then GL2 or DVC80 . IF zoom is important then the only choice is the GL2. IF size is important then TRV950(or DVCam PDX10). Low light is probably not an issue for interviews to see the persons face is important enough to have a light!! All have some form of wired remote for on tripod control though the Sony's and GL2 have more control over the LANC interface than the simple zoom/start/stop of the Panasonic.

Are we helping or making it more confusing?

Ron

The JVC 300 has 1/3 inch CCDs and offers manual control over all it's features. Its primarily for ENG use and has outstanding color for a dv25 camera. For awhile last year they were going for under 2500, now I think they are back up closer to 3K.
To me the DVC80 is going directly against the JVC, but has slightly less features and for less money.

There seems to be one thing going for the Sonys that the lower end JVC and Panasonic have trouble with. The Sonys operate better in very humid environments. The JVC and Panas seem to react to humidity and shut down a little too easily for my taste.

Nope, not confusing, you are helping me move down the garden path so to speak.

The zoom and audio sync with the Panasonics have me a bit concerned. But their seem to be work arounds for those problems. The optics of the Panasonic still hold a great deal of sway with me. Maybe instead of dropping $8,000.00 on another still body I should just get the 100.

... as far as this interlacing thing ... for newsy type of documentary work is that that big a deal? Feature wise the DVC80 competes against the Sony VX/PD series which is extremely popular with the news/documentary crowd. All the camcorders are designed to run mainly in 60i.

The Sony VX/PD series has a true progressive mode but it only refreshes at 15fps NTSC and 12.5fps for PAL.

If you can wait a while, a majority of new camcorder models will hit the market in April. That includes the DVC30 which also has a nifty infrared recording mode, quite like Sony's nightshot/super-nightshot feature.

Since they will be coming out in April, I would imagine more detailed info and reviews on the new corder choices to start showing up in late feb, or sometime in March.

If you don't absolutely need a camcorder now, I think it would be worth the wait to have the choices of the new camcorders.

If you cannot wait, then the dvc80 is a decent choice as is the GL2. One side note, is that I beleive if you want to buy an anamorphic adaptor for the dvc80 you can only get the panasonic made one atm. I think you have a couple of choice with the GL2 because of the lens size.

One other camcorder that you may consider if you need one now, is the Sony VX2100.
It has a decent price and great low light ability.

I think I will wait and lurk around the boards gathering information as it comes across. thanks for all the help, but....

I'll be back!

Just to confuse things more:

Can someone confirm, if I use a DVC-80 and run the de-interlace conversion to 24P scripts (Vegas for exp.), is this similar to, or exactly the same as using a DVX100?

Assuming you adjust the gamma in Vegas, is there any other difference between the footage and the DVX100?

Thanks,

Brian

This is silly. The GL2/DVC30 do not compare at all to the DVC80. As was mentioned, the DVC80 is a better competitor to the PD150 - feature for feature.

As far as waiting, if you have jobs tha you are missing out on then what's the point? Go get a DVC80 start bringing some income in. If it's a hobby then...can't help you there

GL

if I use a DVC-80 and run the de-interlace conversion to 24P scripts (Vegas for exp.), is this similar to, or exactly the same as using a DVX100? No it's not the same, the DVX100 has true progressive 24fps - no need to convert the video from 60i, and no de-interlace artifacts

Michael wrote:
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No it's not the same, the DVX100 has true progressive 24fps - no need to convert the video from 60i, and no de-interlace artifacts
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How exactly would the respective images differ? I am unfamiliar iwth de-interlace artifacts.

It would be interesting to compare frame-grabs of each.

Brian

They differ in, one the incredible amount of rendering time it takes to convert all your footage to progressive :)

but they will suffer from lower resolution will introduces both softness, especially in wide angle, and jaggies with diagonal lines. You also can get strobing and other problems as unless you are very careful when shooting your 60i, you won't see 24fps motion artifacts until you are in the editing room. Shooting progressive lets you see it as you shoot.

Also, shooting progressive with 1/48th and 1/24th shutter speeds gets you a better motion blur than 60i and 1/60th shutter speed.

Finally, and most importantly, shooting 24p captures different moments in time than 60i - 60i can never "see" those same moments.

The DVC80 is for 60i shooters. The DVX100 is for progressive. Shooting DVC80 footage and deinterlacing it is like buying an desktop and strapping a portable generator to your back so you can carry the desktop around :)

Check out 100fps.com (click here) (http://www.100fps.com/) It will explain and show what happens when you try to de-interlace 60i/NTSC or 50i/PAL video.

Great replies, thanks for the thoughtful answers.

Brian

<<<-- Originally posted by George Loch : This is silly. The GL2/DVC30 do not compare at all to the DVC80. As was mentioned, the DVC80 is a better competitor to the PD150 - feature for feature.

As far as waiting, if you have jobs tha you are missing out on then what's the point? Go get a DVC80 start bringing some income in. If it's a hobby then...can't help you there

GL -->>>

why so? not the silly part, but regarding features as the dvc30 is not out and i have yet to find any comprehesive information

Here are a few of the specs on the DVC-30:

http://panasonic.co.jp/bsd/sales_o/02products/products/ag-dvc30/ag-dvc30.pdf

Basically, the DVC-30 has the following hits compared to the DVC-80:
-1/4" CCDs
-no XLR audio builtin
-inferior zoom an focus controls

Are these deal breakers? for me they would be but, for some I guess not. The point is that it's basic specs put it in competition with the GL2 and TRV-950 not the DVC-80

GL