And what peaves me, Beas, is half the time people
throw out their opinions, they haven't even worked
with the mic they're talking about.
They've read somewhere on RAMPS, or
wherever, so it must be true.
Best off to listen to those who've actually
used a mic in question.
Ralf, specs really don't tell you how a mic *sounds*.
You need to listen for yourself before making a
final decision. More important in a mic choice than
specs is *character*. They all have their own.
And just like a leopard doesn't change its spots,
a mic brings its character everywhere it goes.

At least now I know a little bit better what to listen to when trying mics (self noise and recording of quiet sounds, freq. response, spatial impact, sensitivity i.e. sensitivity to wind and handling, intelligibility of speech, overall feel...) so there is a better chance of a succesfull and informative comparison now.

When starting this thread I hardly knew about frequency response and believed that shotguns were allways the best choise (no comments on that, please - I've read a lot of those discussions).

I have learned that a stereo 2x cardioid mic might be better for my specific purposes (including stereo ambience for some effects...) and that in addition to the frequency and polar responses I also have to consider the signal to noise ratio and the overall "feel" of the sound... I really did not pay attention to S/N ratio before I read about it here.

I also know now that both the AT825 and Rode NT4 are much better mics that the Sony default and that NT4 is more sensitive and quiet and thus more capable of recording quiet sounds cleanly. The AT825, on the other hand, records high freq. at a higher relative volume, which could be usefull (with my poor camcorder) if it sounds good too and if those freqs. can be heard above the mic noise. Sensitivity might be bad, too, when mounted on a camera...

Some people like the stereo image that the NT4 gives. It has at least been used to record concerts in stereo. That does not tell anything about how natural stereo image it gives in a forest, though, where "ambient sounds" is a something completely different than in a concert hall. Isn't that true?

There seems to be no quick path to follow. I must test them all...

This is a good starting point for a mic listening tour. I have some assumptions that I can test and try to verify...

Without the good advice here I would probably have ordered a mic from a web shop without listening to it first. Now I think it is best to head for the shops next week and to try a few myself...

If You are not looking for a shotgun mic and You'll not put it on Your pdx10 but just on a stand near the camera... then Shure vp88 is also a very very good stereo mic. I'm using it myself for audio recordings. Tested already in very different situations. Early and liturgical music recordings, meetings and conferences and so on. It's working with phantom and also with batteries.

Is there any particular reason for not mounting the Shure on a camera (besides the fact that a camcorder is a relly poor place for a mic generally)?

Is it too big or too heavy for camera-mount use? Hard to find a shock mount that works? Or maybe just too sensitive? Money wasted?

- I hope to test all three in a week or two... If I manage to do that then I'll post my experiences -

So, Ralf, did you ever test them?

I haven't had a chance to test them yet. Working 5 days a week, shop open 5 days a week... But I'll definitely test when I have time to. I'll let you know then.

There is no hurry, as you can see. I still have two months time before a major event where I would need stereo...

Meanwhile, I have been thinking about the alternative of getting a separate 8-mic... That would be a quite flexible setup, but I'm a bit uncertain as to how well such setups would work on a camera. The figure eight mic might pick up too much camera noise (I don't know yet)... Maybe that can be fixed in M-S stereo matrixing in post, though.

Dual mic M-S stereo would be nice because for me:

- it might become cheaper, afterall (keeping the side mic and changing the mid mics)

- a dual mic M-S stereo setup would improve the mono quality too (getting a new mono mic...) I have to get a better shotgun and a cardioid or stereo anyway.

- it would also enable stereo recording with at least some kind of control over the width of the stereo image (better than with fixed X/Y stereo). Note: speaking of stereo image width to avoid the bad Z-word ;)

- it would be automatically mono-compatible.

- it would be possible to add a controlled amount of stereo ambience to situations where a shotgun is needed - or keep it strictly directional and mono - and a better stereo localization would be achieved with a cardioid mic.

This would be a three mic setup. A shotgun, a cardioid and 8-mic... A bit expensive, but cheaper than buying an X/Y mic that might not quite do the job...

Oh, It'll be a long listening session, when I have time for it...

Unfortunately separate figure of 8 microphones, e.g Ambient Emesser, Sennheiser MK30, Schoeps MK8, are expensive.
But then you never need to upgrade a top quality mic.

The Schoeps range is modular so you could buy 2 power modules, and 3 capsules (figure of 8, cardioid and hypercardioid).

Alternatively, you might be able to compromise with just the MK8 and MK41 (hypercardioid). Instead of a shotgun use the MK41, Instead of a cardioid use the MK41 combined with the MK8. This will given you a wider polar pattern than a mono cardioid.

The Schoeps microphones are very light. I have used them in a stereo pair mounted my DVX100 in an Audio Technica AT8415 shockmount.

Patrick

I've been thinking of getting another Schoeps preamp and the figure8 capsule. manfred Klemme at K Tek makes a piggyback mic mount so the MK4 or 41 can be mounted with the fig8 in the same standard rycote windshield.

Bryan,
Definitely don't use the Rycote MS mounting clips in a mono Rycote windshield. You have to use very short rubber bands and the whole suspension becomes too stiff.
Patrick

Patrick
I very clearly posted that I won't be using rycote shock mounts. K-tek have a piggy back arrangement much the same as the Emesser by Ambient . I have 2 K-Tek mounts and they're great. Have a look at the standard mounts. Any of them can be adapted for any blimp system.http://www.mklemme.com/pole/home.html

On the Schoeps i'm using the very soft mounts that were developed for the Sanken CS-1. Even with the Baby Ball Gag it works great

So which one of these stereo microphones would be best for recording only concerts on a PD170. Whichever microphone I choose I will not be using it on the camera but instead will be using it on a microphone stand placed directly in front of the group. If I go stereo instead of two mono 81's microphones, I think I will be choosing between the AT825, Shure VP88 or the Rode NT-4. I am a bit concerned at the drop in signal to noise between the mono 81's and the VP88's. Which of these three Cardioid non shotgun mikes would give me the best results on my camera. It really is not of any concern to me that the Shure VP88 is twice as much as the Rode NT-4 if it would be best for my situation. I am also concerned with losing the highs if I chose the Rode NT-4. I sure wish I had the selection of microphones to choose from in the stereo department as I do when choosing mono cardioid's.

Also, would I need an amplifier with these microphones in order to cut down the gain in the PD170 to the suggested limit of 40 to 50 percent.

Here'a a link to a comparison of some stereo mics.
AT825, NT4, a Sennheiser XY (may have been discontinued), and some others. Includes a comparison to a pricey Schoeps mic. It's a bit long, but some may find it interesting. It also goes into stereo recording theory and explains different recording techniques.

http://emusician.com/ar/emusic_sum/


And here's that Schoeps.

http://www.schoeps.de/E/cmxy.html

I only have one sample so far on the 835ST and it has some pop in it because I was rushed in setup and had the XLR connector grounding on my tripod until I figured out what it was.

This weekend, I will be able to do another recording of Spirit from JSU, the DCI Division I drum and bugle corps. I don't have a site to host it from, but I should be able to forward it to someone to listen to.

One of the kids in Spirit has three 128kbps mp3s I did from WAV extracted out of an AVI (Liquid Edition -> Creative WaveLab -> MusicMatch). I do not know his bandwidth and he is at camp at the moment, so please be kind...

http://www.nicholsdotcom.com/spirit2004.html

This was in a room with a tile floor. The Doctor Beat is in at least one of the recordings. I forget (anything that says mp3 is blocked by our firewall, so I cannot check) if these were the one's that MusicMatch converted to mono or not (I fixed it later.)

I am using a VX2100 with a Beachtec DX8.

Thanks for the links Dave, I am conviced now to go with a Rode NT-4.

I am also convinced to go with a DAT recorder instead of buying a high quality secondary camera.

Any suggestions on a good DAT machine that will take the XLR connection from the NT-4 and work well with a PD170 and will also not run me 10,000 dollars.

The NT4 comes with a 1/8" miniplug cable.
Were you planning on mounting the NT4 on a mic stand?

You know, I've been thinking about getting an AT825,
but I worry that I'm not going to be happy with it,
especially when I read posts like the one I've linked.
See, I already have the NT4, which can sound quite good,
and if the AT825 is a big step down .... I do like that it
shows good spacial locationing, which is probably due to
the 110 degree capsule placement.
Anyone here used both, who might step forward with their
thoughts?
A couple things I like about the AT are that it's easier to
camera mount, and it's cheaper. The NT4 is not light in
weight, and it's not small. I don't think any of those
rubber band shock mounts would hold it, especially if the
cam is tilted downward.
I have heard it said that the Rode is the best stereo mic
under $1000!

http://www.google.com/groups?q=at825+nt4&hl=en&lr=lang_en&ie=UTF-8&selm=62gltug1jieol3069sv9otm5g64f9jamqe%404ax.com&rnum=1